squib loads from compressed 296 in 454 casull

[usfan]

I picked up a rossi 454 lever gun, & loaded up some rounds. I had some 300gr hitech coated, gas checked swc, & some 230 fmj round nose projectiles. I loaded up 15 of each, with 30 grains in each bullet. I was very slow & deliberate, making sure each set the bullet the right depth, the primers were in, & the powder dropped. I crimped them, too, with the lee factory crimp die. I used the same dies that i used with the 45 colt, adjusted to work with the 454 length.

When i went to try them out (along with some 4227 powder rounds), 4 of the 15 samples lit the primer, but did not ignite the powder. a clump of compressed powder fell out, & the bullet was lodged in the barrel. I had to tap on a wood dowel to drive it out. The 230gr rnfmj were the only ones to do it. When i was down to the last 4 or 5, i tilted the gun up, to settle any loose powder, which there should be none. There were no squib loads, then. All of the 300gr had nice big booms, & kicked hard. The 230s that did fire (~10 of them), were also fine.

I was using tula small rifle primers, that i have reloaded hundreds in other calibers with.

It has been humid here, lately, as the monsoon season is beginning here in Az. Might there be some moisture getting inside the case, while being crimped, & making the powder not ignite? If it was one, i'd brush it off as an anomaly, but with 4 out of 15, there is too many to take the chance & reload.

Any ideas, anyone? Something i've overlooked? The loads were compressed, but just slightly.. i've seen some compressed a lot more. Why would the rifle primer not ignite the powder? I could hear a 'pfft', & then eject the casing with a clump of powder & lots of dribbles jamming the works.

TIA.. oh, & the 4227 loads were 29.4gr, with both projectiles. No problems with any of those test rounds. ..just the 230fmj & w296. All new starline brass, new tula small rifle primers, lee loadmaster press.

 

[mahansm]

296 is hard to light. I've had a similar experience in .357 with 125 grain JHPs using small pistol primers. Step up to small rifle magnum primers or stick with the heavier bullets.

 

[gamestalker]

So are you saying that the 230 gr. bullets were the only one's that produced squibs?

If so, and if you used a 30.0 gr. charge of 296, that right there is your problem. The data for a 240 gr., as Hodgdon doesn't show any data for 230's, is 36.0 - 38.2, and that's for a bullet 10 grs. heavier.

So in retrospect, the 30.0 gr. charge of 296, and if I understand correctly you used with a 230 gr. jacketed bullet, is way below a start / minimum charge for that weight bullet. 296 is very charge sensitive to reductions, and really can't or shouldn't be reduced to below minimum start charge. So your 30.0 gr. charge is about 20% under published, this could very certainly cause a squib, and possibly other more serious consequences, such as a detonation.

296 shouldn't be reduced by more than 3%, and even then, it's not a powder that performs well at the low end. My advice, and only if I understand that you are using a 230 gr. projectile, is to increase your charge to 36.0 grs., that would at least get you close to a minimum charge, but is still going to be a bit light considering that is a start charge for a .240 gr. projectile.

The other factor to consider, is that I don't see any any data for a bullet lighter than 240 grs., so that may present a problem in it's self with 296. You may not be able to get enough in the case to function properly with that light weight 230 gr. projectile.

GS

 

[243winxb]

296

The 230gr rnfmj were the only ones to do it. just the 230fmj & w296

Dont go below starting load.

 

[Rule3]

This is too confusing

I have no idea what you are trying to say??

Can you reword this?

What rounds were squibs with what powder, charge , case and bullet?

 

[gamestalker]

That's what I was wondering also Rule3. From what I gather though, it appears he was experiencing the squibs with the 230 grainer's with a 30 gr. charge of 296. But that's just a guess, and he isn't responding to our questions for some reason.

But if he is using the 230's with that 30 gr. charge of 296, no doubt that's his issue, as that put's him at least 6.0 grs. below the book start charge of 36.0 grs. of 296 for a 240 gr.. If the above is correct, he is drastically below a practical start charge, some 20%.

Oh well, hopefully he'll get back to us to clear up some of these questions.

GS

 

[usfan]

296 is hard to light. I've had a similar experience in .357 with 125 grain JHPs using small pistol primers. Step up to small rifle magnum primers or stick with the heavier bullets.

Thanks for the reply. I have some 45 colt loads that i will try with this powder. I just got it, & perhaps there is something with the powder. It's a puzzlement, but with the help of everyone i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of it.

I don't have any small rifle magnum primers, but that is a good suggestion. I'll pick some up.

 

[243winxb]

W296 and H110 Powders

W296/H110 always needs a magnum primer and the powder charge should not be reduced more than 3% below the maximun charge listed. A good crimp is also needed. From old Winchester data.

 

[usfan]

So are you saying that the 230 gr. bullets were the only one's that produced squibs?

If so, and if you used a 30.0 gr. charge of 296, that right there is your problem. The data for a 240 gr., as Hodgdon doesn't show any data for 230's, is 36.0 - 38.2, and that's for a bullet 10 grs. heavier.

So in retrospect, the 30.0 gr. charge of 296, and if I understand correctly you used with a 230 gr. jacketed bullet, is way below a start / minimum charge for that weight bullet. 296 is very charge sensitive to reductions, and really can't or shouldn't be reduced to below minimum start charge. So your 30.0 gr. charge is about 20% under published, this could very certainly cause a squib, and possibly other more serious consequences, such as a detonation.

296 shouldn't be reduced by more than 3%, and even then, it's not a powder that performs well at the low end. My advice, and only if I understand that you are using a 230 gr. projectile, is to increase your charge to 36.0 grs., that would at least get you close to a minimum charge, but is still going to be a bit light considering that is a start charge for a .240 gr. projectile.

The other factor to consider, is that I don't see any any data for a bullet lighter than 240 grs., so that may present a problem in it's self with 296. You may not be able to get enough in the case to function properly with that light weight 230 gr. projectile.

GS

Yes. The 230g, fmj were the only ones to squib. The 300gr were fine, & actually compressed the load more, so i don't see how the compression would be a factor.

I have seen a lot of data for 45 colt with 230gr & lighter loads, with a lot less than 30gr of w296, so i don't see that it was a 'too light' load. And you are right, there is not much out there for the 230 gr fmj, but i'm having trouble seeing the correlation. Why would it fail to ignite? The case was full. The powder dry.

 

[usfan]

That's what I was wondering also Rule3. From what I gather though, it appears he was experiencing the squibs with the 230 grainer's with a 30 gr. charge of 296. But that's just a guess, and he isn't responding to our questions for some reason.

But if he is using the 230's with that 30 gr. charge of 296, no doubt that's his issue, as that put's him at least 6.0 grs. below the book start charge of 36.0 grs. of 296 for a 240 gr.. If the above is correct, he is drastically below a practical start charge, some 20%.

Oh well, hopefully he'll get back to us to clear up some of these questions.

GS

I can shoot much lower charges in 45 colt, in the same gun. I just got the w296, & have not tried it in other calibers. That will be my next step.

I do have work & other responsibilities, so am not here 24/7.. sorry for the delay in reply, as i slept last night! Thanks again for the replies, i'm sure we'll get to the bottom of it, eventually.

 

[usfan]

I am new to the 454 casull, but it seems many reloaders just use small rifle primers.. even with w296.
http://www.reloadammo.com/454casull.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/454casull.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?

I can see that w296 with a 230g bullet can take a much bigger load.. 36+ grains, but why would it not ignite a full load, even with a smaller grain projectile?

Perhaps i will try some test loads with more powder, & see if it makes a difference. Shouldn't the 230g fmj work? They are probably .001 smaller than the hitech coated cast, but if crimped well, they should at least fire, wouldn't you think?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[usfan]

I will try to load up some more powder in the 230g loads.. 33g & some 36g, to make a test. If they all ignite with no problem, then that would indicate a too light load. I also have some 45colt loads ready to try, with 23.2g of w296, in some 250g fp plated, & the notorious 230g fmj.

I don't HAVE to use the 230s, but just wanted to try them. Perhaps they are too small for the 454, but they have worked fine in the hot 45 colt loads.

 

[243winxb]

Lee Factory crimp die- Sorry, i see no need for it.

I crimped them, too, with the lee factory crimp die.

I would guess, plated and coated bullets should be avoided. The post sizing from the carbide ring in the factory crimp die may change the neck tension holding the bullets. If the bullet moves to soon or jumps forward in the case, pressure will not increase correctly with W296 powder. A test is, load the cylinder, fire, but stop and check the last round in the cylinder. Has the OAL increased??

 

[tootall]

CRAP, just re-read your firearm information...............

DO NOT load round nose cartridges in a tube fed magazine... you may detonate some/all of the rounds and lose your support hand (or worse). I know of at least one person who lost fingers due to this.


Less important stuff below (and 243's comments above are also good observations.

Just another thought (no experience loading 454s) is that the 230 gr round nose is so short to the ogive that the bullet has significant jump to the lands. The heavier (and longer) bullet hits the lands more quickly in the ignition phase (and builds higher initial pressure).

296/H110 does require pressure/temperature to ignite (hence the limited reduced load warning). I have found that Universal Clays needs about 20kpsi (per Quickload estimate) to fully ignite, or residual unburned powder disks exist in the chamber/case/ejection port (9mm light loads).

Your Wolf SR primers should be OK with 296 (I use that in 144g FMJ 300BLK loads, 16.0g H110), there is alot of empty case volume with this load.

I'm guessing either crimp the 230s more (or use roll crimp with a cast type load) to build initial pressure or just use a longer/heavier bullet (as you found works well).

my 2c.

 

[TimSr]

Wow!

1. You are way below starting load for a 230gr bullet which 296/110 load data says NEVER to do, because it might cause this exact prolem.

2. Every published load data for 296/110 specifies a Small Rifle MAGNUM primer excpet Winshester whose primer is for Std or Mag.

3. A 230gr FMJ bullet made for 45 acp should NEVER EVER be loaded to 454 Casull velocities!!! Nor should plated, or jacketed bullets made for 45LC. If you are going to do full power Casull loads, make sure you use a bullet that is rated for it!

 

[usfan]

CRAP, just re-read your firearm information...............

DO NOT load round nose cartridges in a tube fed magazine... you may detonate some/all of the rounds and lose your support hand (or worse). I know of at least one person who lost fingers due to this.


Less important stuff below (and 243's comments above are also good observations.

Just another thought (no experience loading 454s) is that the 230 gr round nose is so short to the ogive that the bullet has significant jump to the lands. The heavier (and longer) bullet hits the lands more quickly in the ignition phase (and builds higher initial pressure).

296/H110 does require pressure/temperature to ignite (hence the limited reduced load warning). I have found that Universal Clays needs about 20kpsi (per Quickload estimate) to fully ignite, or residual unburned powder disks exist in the chamber/case/ejection port (9mm light loads).

Your Wolf SR primers should be OK with 296 (I use that in 144g FMJ 300BLK loads, 16.0g H110), there is alot of empty case volume with this load.

I'm guessing either crimp the 230s more (or use roll crimp with a cast type load) to build initial pressure or just use a longer/heavier bullet (as you found works well).

my 2c.

Yeah, i've been reading other people's problems with a 230fmj in this caliber.. sounds like i will just ditch it as a boolit. Fortunately, i saw the issue with the round nose, & was just trying them one at a time, not full in the tube. I've got some 250 flat nose, & the 300 swc, so i'll just use them. I *might* load some up in 45colt for the pistol, but will probably just avoid the round nose so it don't have to keep them separate for the rifle.

Seems like it is mostly a low charge, with a finicky powder. I intended to use the w296 as full power loads, & was just trying some out at the lowest charges.. but it seems to be too low for the 454, even though it isn't for the 45 colt. Strange.

I'm trying out some 45 colt loads today, which i can use in either the redhawk or the rossi 454. Some of them are 24g w296, so we'll see how they work. I'll probably be tilting the gun up, to close any void, which may have been the issue. I was slowly cycling the action, with the rifle tilted down, & even though it was a pretty full charge, it might have left a small void, which caused the incomplete ignition.

good catch with the round nose in a tube mag.. I'll probably just use the round noses for 45acp, & keep the 45c & 454 in flat nosed profiles.

edit: btw, i found i was using cci-400 small rifle primers. I used fiocci large pistol in the 45c. the tula box was from some small pistol i had done earlier in 45acp.

 

[usfan]

I would guess, plated and coated bullets should be avoided. The post sizing from the carbide ring in the factory crimp die may change the neck tension holding the bullets. If the bullet moves to soon or jumps forward in the case, pressure will not increase correctly with W296 powder. A test is, load the cylinder, fire, but stop and check the last round in the cylinder. Has the OAL increased??

i've used some 250 fn plated in 45 colt, & they have crimped well. Since i was loading up hotter loads (not max) i thought a crimp would help. It is fairly light.. not breaking the plating or anything.

But a lot of this could just be the picky nature of w296.. once i dial it in with a particular bullet, crimp, primer, & charge, i will probably stick with it. I have mostly used 4227 & aa9 for my magnum pistol loads, & they are much more flexible, it seems, with starting charges.

I was mostly testing these one or 2 at a time in a levergun. But i did check to see if the following bullet came loose after every shot. They did not, so they seem to be tight enough.

Thanks again for the helpful responses.

 

[murf]

usfan,

case volume difference between 45lc and 454casull is significant. the extra volume in the casull case reduces internal pressure (with the same powder charge) enough to severely affect the powder burn. changing components : case volume, bullet shape/weight, powder type/charge, primer type, col, crimp, etc., is why we insist on everyone staying within reloading manual guidelines. change one component and bad things can happen.

good thing you didn't try to stuff that 300gn bullet and 30 grains of powder in a 45lc case.

murf

 

[Rule3]

So where in the world did you get your data for a 230 FMJ bullet and H110 for the 454 ???

The Hodgdon data for a Freedom Arms (which a Rossi is not) is a min of 36. to 38.2 gr H110 for a 240 gr Bullet.

This is for a handgun load.

Also as mentioned you need to use flat point of something like XTP FTX bullets.

What manuals(s) do you have??

 

[moxie]

1. 230 FMJs are for .45acp.

2. Your experience is why I don't use 296/110. Two much drama with those powders. I use 2400 for hot magnum loads.

3. Ditto lose the Lee FCD. A standard roll crimp into the crimp groove of a SWC bullet is, well, standard. Any standard 3-die set will do this for you.

 

[Rule3]

The LFCD is not related to his problems and has nothing to due with the whole situation. The OP has larger issues

 

[TimSr]

The LFCD is not related to his problems and has nothing to due with the whole situation. The OP has larger issues.

Yeah, but no matter what problem you post, it is certain that somebody will tell you to buy one.


He does have larger issues.

Case capacity = 454 case is longer than a 45LC case therefore 30gr in a LC case is FULLER than 30gr in a 454 case, hence YOU CAN'T USE 45LC min powder charges in Casull cases.

The bigger issue - Every bullet you list is rated at a max velocity of 1600 at most, and some shouldn't be driven over 1100-1200 fps.

You want to load full power 454 Casull, GET A BULLET MADE FOR IT. Otherwise, do NOT load above 45LC Ruger only levels.

There are bullets made for 454/460SW if you want to run them at full power such as Hornady XTP-MAG or FTX.

 

[usfan]

1. 230 FMJs are for .45acp.

2. Your experience is why I don't use 296/110. Two much drama with those powders. I use 2400 for hot magnum loads.

3. Ditto lose the Lee FCD. A standard roll crimp into the crimp groove of a SWC bullet is, well, standard. Any standard 3-die set will do this for you.

1. ok
2. seems to be a fussy powder.
3. the roll crimp is not needed, but it shouldn't hurt.

 

[usfan]

Yeah, but no matter what problem you post, it is certain that somebody will tell you to buy one.
He does have larger issues.
Case capacity = 454 case is longer than a 45LC case therefore 30gr in a LC case is FULLER than 30gr in a 454 case, hence YOU CAN'T USE 45LC min powder charges in Casull cases.

The bigger issue - Every bullet you list is rated at a max velocity of 1600 at most, and some shouldn't be driven over 1100-1200 fps.

You want to load full power 454 Casull, GET A BULLET MADE FOR IT. Otherwise, do NOT load above 45LC Ruger only levels.

There are bullets made for 454/460SW if you want to run them at full power such as Hornady XTP-MAG or FTX.

1. Yes, the case capacity on the 454 is more than the 45c. A common load for ~250g projectiles for 45c is 24g, which does not fill the case. 30g DOES fill the case, and does not seem too light of a load, even for a 454 case.

2. I am attempting to load fairly light 454 loads, not full power ones. I have gleaned from this feeble thread, & from browsing other sites, that w296 is a tricky powder, for limited, full power uses. I will not attempt to use it for starting loads. But 30g of w296 is not a max load for 45c.. it is above max, for this range of projectiles. So it does not seem to be a min load even for 454.

3. even though i am not driving these boolits at full speed, they are rated high enough for the uses i was trying. The hitech coated with gas check is easily rated that, from the manfr. It will do in the 2000fps range, according to him. I don't have the rating of a 230fmj, in front of me, but is suspect it would do close to that, as well. That is not the problem, though thanks for the side issue comment. IOW, these bullets should be adequate for testing, & even regular shooting with the powder levels chosen.

The problem seems to be more related to the nature of w296 in the larger chamber, plus the weaker seal on the fmj.. at least that is my suspicion, now.

Funny, no one blamed the rossi..

It's fine.. i can take the heat. I'm used to a lot more ridicule than this, on political forums!

 

[Rule3]

1. Yes, the case capacity on the 454 is more than the 45c. A common load for ~250g projectiles for 45c is 24g, which does not fill the case. 30g DOES fill the case, and does not seem too light of a load, even for a 454 case.

2. I am attempting to load fairly light 454 loads, not full power ones. I have gleaned from this feeble thread, & from browsing other sites, that w296 is a tricky powder, for limited, full power uses. I will not attempt to use it for starting loads. But 30g of w296 is not a max load for 45c.. it is above max, for this range of projectiles. So it does not seem to be a min load even for 454.

.

It's fine.. i can take the heat. I'm used to a lot more ridicule than this, on political forums!

It would be much easier to attempt to help you if you stick or stay with one caliber and one projectile.

The 230 gr ACP bullet is not for the 454. Get the correct bullet. You have no data for the 230 in the 454 and can not extrapolate it.

You did not answer what manual(s) you have.?? What other powders do you have if any??

Win 296 and H110 are the same powders they are not powders for light loads they are all or nothing pretty much.

Get some heavier bullets and a different powder if you want lighter 454 loads.

If you go to Hodgdon online it will open up a whole list of powders providing you have heavier bullets made for the 454. You stated you had some 4227 which is good agai with the right bullet. Get some 250 gr and you have even more.