STag Arms 1/7 or 1/9 Rifiling Twist - M855 Green Tip

[AethelstanAegen]

My gun purchase for the fall of this year is looking like it will be a Stag Arms Model 2 (unless my LGS makes me a deal on a model 2T). This is a pretty hefty firearm investment for me and so I'd like to get a solid AR that will last a long time and perform well. The price for the model 2 is about $850 in my area. I know that Stag Arms also offers a "plus" package for an extra $100. This plus package essentially boils down into an upgrade in barrel (slightly better materials and a 1/7 twist vs the standard 1/9 twist) and an additional magazine.

I'm really mostly interested in if people more experienced in ARs think the upgrade in 1/7 twist vs standard 1/9 twist is worth it. I ask as I'm likely to be mainly firing rounds in the low 60gr weight (ie the M855 Green Tip vs the 55gr M193). Would the 1/7 twist of the plus package noticeably improve accuracy with the heavier M855 over the 1/9 twist in the standard barrel? I'm generally looking for as close a copy of an plain-jane M4 as possible as I'd like to get practice in on the platform (I'm likely to be using M4s in the future) and it would be nice to be able to practice/use a very similar system at work and at home (part of which leans me towards going ahead and getting the 1/7 twist).

What do people think? It would be a pain (and more expensive) to replace the barrel later, so would I get acceptable accuracy out of a 1/9 twist barrel with M855 or should I go for the 1/7 twist?

Many thanks!

 

[Patriotme]

Hmmm.....I just took a look at the Plus Package. You get a lot more than just an extra mag and 4150 barrel steel. I'm not going to list everything that they offer since it's only a few clicks away but you really get a lot better rifle for $100. The only problem is you get close to the Colt price range and their rifles (to my best knowledge) almost all come with what Stag is calling the Plus Package. Everyone else calls the Plus Package "Mil Spec."
If you're set on a Stag, and I'm not trashing the brand at all, then definately get the Plus Package. You'll get a better rifle. M4 feed ramps, M16 BCG, improved extractor, staked castle nut, etc are all worth the money.

 

[RatDrall]

I doubt either twist rate will matter shooting 62 gr. You could buy either twist and end up with a barrel that hates your favorite load.

This is a pretty hefty firearm investment for me and so I'd like to get a solid AR that will last a long time and perform well. The price for the model 2 is about $850 in my area.

Then skip stag and go straight to the top.

You save quite a bit of money, mostly the Federal Excise tax, buying an AR upper and lower seperately. There isn't much assembly required, mostly putting the two halves together like you would when cleaning or transporting.

Bravo Company makes great stuff. Here's what I would buy:

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Lower-Receiver-Groups-M4-AR15-s/117.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm charging handle ar15.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Auto-M16-p/bcm bolt carrier group auto mp.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards mid length black.htm

$900 or so altogether, for a top tier rifle.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I'm definitely open to other suggestions as I'm pretty new to the whole AR scene. RatDrall, I had looked at Bravo Company, but it tends to be more expensive and build components seem to always be sold out (all the components you listed were sold out). I have no objection to some assembly acquired (especially if it's just adding an upper and lower together) but I would like to make it something that one can find (Bravo seems to be so popular right now, it's difficult to get their stuff).

Patriotme, thanks for pointing out the other features of the plus package to me, I'll have to go back and look into it some more (my LGS narrowed it down to the barrel/twist/etc probably figuring I wouldn't understand the other bits). That does seem like an awful lot of improvement, so it's probably a $100 well spent. That does put me into the $900-1000 range. Which is really the upper limit of my budget. Unless someone sells the same specs but with a railed handguard for less than $1150 (as it has so far seemed much cheaper to just add my own afterwards).

Thanks for all the advice so far! Any other input or suggestions would be much appreciated. Maybe it would be best to add a quick list for things I'm looking for to help:

16" Barrel (Chrome Lined Barrel/Bore)
If possible 1/7 twist, but depending on what people think maybe 1/9 would be alright
Flat Top
A post front sight fine (but would need a folding rear sight)
Adjustable Stock
As close to M4 milspec as possible (ie in terms of BCG, feed ramp, etc)
Ideally quad rail (but this is something I add easily aftermarket for $140 tops)
Budget: Maximum: $1000 or $1150 with quad rail. Anything cheaper would be a huge plus.
The Stag Arms model 2 seems to fit these criteria and is available, but I would be happy to field other options.

 

[wingman]

I have the Stag model 3, 1/9 twist I've used up to 68 grain so far with good results I'm just starting some reloading development, most commerical ammo is 55gr, personally I've always preferred 52gr match in the 223, the 1/7 twist is mostly for 65 grain and above,just depends on your needs, I did not see the need for the 1/7 twist for the ammo I use. If your looking for strict military spec. then 1/7 is the way to go.

 

[ugaarguy]

Here's a couple ideas:
http://www.smartgunner.com/DanielDefenseLiteURG.aspx - note that most rails, including the Omega-x are included at that price. Then get a lower from here - http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/AR-15-lowe-receivers.php
Or get a PSA upper - http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/ar-complete-uppers.php - the uppers with the cold hammer forged bbls (like the DD & BCM cold hammer forged bbls.) are the way to go. Actually, now that I read it more carefully PSA is openly saying that their hammer forged bbls. are sourced from FN - those would absolutely be the way to go.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for all the advice so far...there have been some great tips. I looked at the Palmetto State Armory site and found what looks like a nice receiver but much cheaper than elsewhere. It seems to have everything I was looking for but maybe some of you more knowledgeable AR fans can tell me if there is something the Stag Arms Model 2 plus ($970) with added Daniel Defense rail +$140 (total $1110) has that the suggested build below doesn't:

Build:
PSA M4 Upper (w/Troy rail) - $530
Aero-Precision Magpul Lower (they make PSA's lowers)
BUS: +~$120
Total: $895

All I'd need is to buy rear flip sight and it seems to be about $200 cheaper. I feel like there must be a corner they're cutting somewhere to save that money but I can't figure out where. Thanks for any help you can give me!

 

[gotboostvr]

I seem to remember CDNN was letting some Colt's go for under a grand.
Personally, I pieced together a BCM build and got it done exactly how I wanted, gunfighter CH, auto ion coated BCG, midlength heavy 1x8 barrel and alot of magpul furniture and was still under a grand.

I saved a chunk of change though cause I'm not a fan of rails on carbines, I like to keep the weight down.

Get what you want the first time, don't go cheap and regret it later!

 

[kwelz]

I had looked at Bravo Company, but it tends to be more expensive and build components seem to always be sold out

There is a reason for that. A bit of patience will go a long way. Don't buy junk to start with. You will only regret it down the road.

 

[C-grunt]

Budsgunshop has Colt SP6920s for $981 shipped right now.

 

[ugaarguy]

is something the Stag Arms Model 2 plus ($970) with added Daniel Defense rail +$140 (total $1110) has that the suggested build below doesn't:

Build:
PSA M4 Upper (w/Troy rail) - $530
Aero-Precision Magpul Lower (they make PSA's lowers)
BUS: +~$120
Total: $895

Unless you add the plus package to the Stag you aren't getting the 1/7 twist, no HPT/MPI BCG, 4140 steel instead of 4150, no H Buffer. The Stag also doesn't have the $80 worth of Magpul furniture on it that the Aero lower does.

The PSA upper you list is almost equivalent to a Stag plus package upper. The only difference is the PSA upper you list is 4140 bbl. steel vs. the better 4150 steel in the plus package.

The other thing is the rail. The DD rail you'd add to the Stag is a drop in, non-free float unit at that price point. The Troy rail that PSA would put on is free floated. I really like DD free floated rails, but equivalent Troy free float rails are usually at least $100 or 1/3 the price cheaper. Just my thoughts there.

The reason I suggested this upper - http://www.palmettostatearmory.com/2265.php - is that you're getting the free float rail you already want, and an FN manufactured Cold Hammer Forged Mil-B-11595E (4150 with Gov't certification of the exact alloy composition - not easy to get) bbl. That's basically the best AR bbl money can buy, and a great handguard, on a correct spec upper group. $90 will get you Magpul MBUS front & rear flip up sights for it.

All I'd need is to buy rear flip sight and it seems to be about $200 cheaper. I feel like there must be a corner they're cutting somewhere to save that money but I can't figure out where. Thanks for any help you can give me!

It appears that PSA, like BCM, is buying parts to their specs in the quantities to get the price right. The only corner I'm seeing cut is 4140 steel in PSA's bbls that aren't forged. That's a minor corner to cut, and many AR manufacturers such as S&W, and Stag (non-plus package as noted above) use 4140 bbl. steel. As long as the Bolt is HPT/MPI, and everything is assembled & staked properly 4140 isn't a huge deal.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for the input ugaarguy. That was helpful in determining some of the differences I was not familiar with...I'll have to let you guys know what I decide on. I probably won't be making the purchase until early September (as I'm currently travelling) so any input up until then is still welcome.


Thanks again!

 

[mustachio]

The PSA site says the 14.5" barrels with fixed C2 FH are 4150 steel. I just got one and married it to an Aero Precision lower. It shoots beautifully. I shot it until the barrel started to smoke and I could not touch the barrel and then shot it more. It never quit on me. Looks like a nice build for $580.

 

[ms6852]

I would like to mention also, that if you are going to only use the lighter bullets the 1/9 twist is great. The 1/7 twist barrel will stabilize the heavier bullets...BUT...remember that rifle twist is not about heavier bullets but it has to do with the longer bullets which weigh more because they are longer. If you do consider buying the 1/7 twist barrel you may inadvertently make your semi-auto rifle a single shot rifle since the longer or heavier rounds will not fit your magazine properly. You can shoot the lighter rounds out of the 1/7 twist.

 

[ugaarguy]

If you do consider buying the 1/7 twist barrel you may inadvertently make your semi-auto rifle a single shot rifle since the longer or heavier rounds will not fit your magazine properly.

Standard construction 77gr Sierra MatchKings can be loaded to COL to fit STANAG 5.56 magazines. Black Hills commercially sells such a round as 5.56 77gr OTM, which is the same round they make for the US Military under the MK262 Mod 1 nomenclature. Pressures are on the edge of the 5.56 NATO spec, so make sure your rifle has a 5.56 chamber.

A little research has revealed that DRT ammo is manufacturing powdered tungsten core bullets using technology originally developed by Powell River Laboratories (PRL). During the testing for what would become MK262 Mod 0 a PRL 87 grain bullet, which was just as short as the lead core 77 grain Nosler and Sierra match bullets, was evaluated. DRT is currently offering powdered metal core .224" diameter 79 grain bullets which they state will stabilize in twists as slow as 1:9.

Hornady offers their 75 grain OTM bullets as a component, or in ammo loaded to both .223 spec (several variants) & 5.56 spec (one offering). Both will feed from STANAG mags. Federal is also loading .223 Rem with 77gr SMKs in their Gold Medal line. As usual, Remington & Winchester are behind the curve offering nothing but light to medium weight .223 Rem ammo.

There's also data out there for Swift's 75 gr .224" diameter Scirocco II bonded ballistic tip loaded at COL that will run in STANAG mags.

Heavy for caliber bullets in cartridges that will feed from STANAG mags are out there.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I've done some more research and I looked into Spike's Tactical (recommended on another thread here). They have a ST-15 M4 LE Carbine which seems to have everything the Stag Arms Model 2 plus package has except for different barrel steel. Does anyone have any experience with this rifle? It's quite a bit cheaper than the Stag Arms so it seems worth investigating. Many thanks!

 

[C-grunt]

I've done some more research and I looked into Spike's Tactical (recommended on another thread here). They have a ST-15 M4 LE Carbine which seems to have everything the Stag Arms Model 2 plus package has except for different barrel steel. Does anyone have any experience with this rifle? It's quite a bit cheaper than the Stag Arms so it seems worth investigating. Many thanks!

Spikes makes a good rifle. Id buy one before the Stag + model.

 

[ms6852]

Standard construction 77gr Sierra MatchKings can be loaded to COL to fit STANAG 5.56 magazines. Black Hills commercially sells such a round as 5.56 77gr OTM, which is the same round they make for the US Military under the MK262 Mod 1 nomenclature. Pressures are on the edge of the 5.56 NATO spec, so make sure your rifle has a 5.56 chamber.

A little research has revealed that DRT ammo is manufacturing powdered tungsten core bullets using technology originally developed by Powell River Laboratories (PRL). During the testing for what would become MK262 Mod 0 a PRL 87 grain bullet, which was just as short as the lead core 77 grain Nosler and Sierra match bullets, was evaluated. DRT is currently offering powdered metal core .224" diameter 79 grain bullets which they state will stabilize in twists as slow as 1:9.

Hornady offers their 75 grain OTM bullets as a component, or in ammo loaded to both .223 spec (several variants) & 5.56 spec (one offering). Both will feed from STANAG mags. Federal is also loading .223 Rem with 77gr SMKs in their Gold Medal line. As usual, Remington & Winchester are behind the curve offering nothing but light to medium weight .223 Rem ammo.

There's also data out there for Swift's 75 gr .224" diameter Scirocco II bonded ballistic tip loaded at COL that will run in STANAG mags.

Heavy for caliber bullets in cartridges that will feed from STANAG mags are out there.

Ugaarguy, thanks for the heads up I appreciated, and will definately look into this. Once again thanks.

 

[ugaarguy]

No problem ms6852. I just wish the Scirocco II wasn't so expensive - they're about $50 per 100.

 

[stevekc]

Budget AR

I was looking to purchase a AR but trying to keep the cost down below $1,000. After researching for months I decided to for the Stag Model 3 but without the plus package. I know the plus package adds a lot but it seems you have to custom order it from Stag which means you are more than likely paying the retail price which puts the cost closer to $1,000. I was able to pick it up from www.grabagun.com without the plus for $750 which included the shipping and no tax. I know it doesn't include the M4 feed ramps, the upgraded steel, and additional items that have been mentioned on this post, but for the money and the fact that I will probably only be using it at the range for target practice I didn't see the need to spend the extra amount and will instead spend what I saved on additional ammo. I wasn't sure about the website at first but the transaction went flawless and was timely. Ill be buying future guns from there for sure. You can't beat the price that includes shipping anywhere else. Now I just need to decide on the scope....

 

[ac6916170]

Surplus arms and ammo has a nice upper for $400 that has a Black Hole Weaponry 1/8 twist. It will handle the M855's very well.