Stance/ grip advice

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JonathanE

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A long time ago, I taught myself how to shoot a handgun, for better or worse. I take a boxer's stance, arms in Weaver position, with a cup and saucer grip. (Someone on the internet called this a "Weaver Hollywood Teacup"... I don't think I learned it from Hollywood, however!) As such, I have been a fairly good handgun shot, auto or revolver.
All of the arguments for Isosceles, thumbs forward stance & grip make great sense to me, so I have tried it a lot recently, but I can't seem to make it work. I am a rightie. My rounds string out in a vertical line, 4" long, 2" left of mark. My left hand is pulling the gun at the break, but I can't stop it, however my left fingers enclose my right. I have tried placing my left index finger on the front of the trigger guard, as well.
Any suggestions or thoughts?
Anyone here successfully made the switch from Weaver to Isosceles/ thumbs forward?
 
Weaver, Isosceles, Modified Turnipseed, Center Axis Relock.

None of the 'stances' matter as much as you being able to sight and shoot. I had an instructor what wasn't satisfied until I could shoot from one foot with the other raised in the air 'crane style'. If the sights line up, that's all that matters.
 
Ha! That's almost my conclusion, but the physics and ergonomics of the newer stance/ grip make a lot of sense to me.
 
Yes, I have made the switch. Now I can do either. Or the crane style thing... and when shooting paper, slowly, it doesn't matter what you do. The reason you should learn to do it right? It's for when your life is on the line and sending lots of lead accurately and rapidly might make the difference. If you're stringing them, you're not doing enough dry practice. You can self diagnose a lot of problems by dry practice.
 
Anyone here successfully made the switch from Weaver to Isosceles/ thumbs forward?
Yes, 20 years ago. After my stint in the Army, when I started USPSA match shooting, Weaver just would not do the job and I quickly switched to Isosceles/thumbs forward like everyone else. Now, I use modified isosceles with relaxed elbows.

Having watched Hickok45 for some time shooting extremely accurate, now I am trying his modified Weaver stance with shooting arm straight and support arm slightly bent.

Hickok45 explains and demonstrates different stances while he prefers modified Weaver stance:

[YOUTUBE]A1Cf0WEeXZk[/YOUTUBE]

Hickok45 on grip / trigger control

[YOUTUBE]22msLVCtPk8[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]3Xa5JPLGIsU[/YOUTUBE]
 
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I'm coming at this from the defensive side of things, so if that isn't your focus, just ignore.

Your sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control, and grip are the important part of hitting your target. In practical/defensive shooting, stance only aids in your ability to move and your recoil mitigation. Both very important, and both valid reasons to transition over to a different stance. However, as you're seeing, changing your stance does change your grip, so in learning a new stance, you're also learning a new grip. It's the grip that you need to control, because we don't always get to shoot from a perfect stance... Shooting around or under cover, from different positions, etc. are possible in a defensive shooting. The grip that you take from Isosceles is a very versatile one. You really don't need your body to be in one position or another to get that grip. With Weaver, you do. This is one of the reasons I started out shooting with an Isosceles type grip/stance... I could shoot standing, kneeling, moving, from around a barrier, under a barrier, on my side, anything, and keep my grip consistent.

If you're stringing, and you know it's because of your grip, it's all because of the tension... HERE is a great video to demonstrate that, and give you a drill you can work on yourself. HERE is the follow-up to that one.

Best advice is to go take a good defensive training class, and get one-on-one advice from an instructor who can look at you, an tell you exactly what's wrong.
 
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DWebb said:
Yes, I have made the switch. Now I can do either. Or the crane style thing... and when shooting paper, slowly, it doesn't matter what you do.

I may have been a bit sparse in the details of my post. The course of fire while 'standing on one foot' was your average IDPA and state mandated police qualification course. Not exactly slow bull's eye shooting.
 
Thanks for the input so far.
Maybe I should have left the stance aspect out of the conversation... The "thumbs forward" grip is causing me to pull the gun to the left when the trigger breaks... the fingers on my left hand exert pressure on the fingers on my right hand.
The grip that Hickok shows in the second video you posted, bds, is very similar to the grip I have used for years, and dissimilar to the "thumbs forward", two-hand "embrace" I keep seeing touted by the "new" guys! His stance isn't all that different than mine, either, but again quite different from the new guys!
Inebriated, thanks for the videos, but I'm pretty sure my trigger pull is straight.
 
JonathanE said:
Inebriated, thanks for the videos, but I'm pretty sure my trigger pull is straight.
Towards the end of the first one, they address tension and shot stringing, which is why I posted it...
 
stances, training ....

The senior instructor from SIG Sauer Academy did a few great training-marksmanship videos online about the basics. It's worth viewing even if you have formal training or know a few methods/stances.
I might review his clips again but the cadre's point was to keep the pistol's sights level & even. To control your breathing & stand with your feet apart, with a solid hold helps too.
I'd say 90-95% of my handgun shooting would be a modified Weaver or "speed Chapman".

Your goal or intent in combat/defense shooting is to scan for threats & be ready to reload/do mag drills quickly & smoothly without needing to look at the gun/gear.
Some shooters/CCW holders stand at a angle to appear thin/narrow to any threats that may shoot at them. This isn't a bad idea but I prefer that "fast & aggressive" method. Tom Cruise's shootout scene in the crime drama Colaterial is a often used example.
 
I'd say 90-95% of my handgun shooting would be a modified Weaver or "speed Chapman".

For 2-handed shooting? Me too, depending. Depends on body positioning for the circumstances, whether a type of barricade/cover is involved and whether/how I have to be able to move (either between or during shots).

For example, going up & down stairs, while remaining balanced and preparing for different elevations of a potential threat, can be more interesting than some folks might think. Clearing corners of potential obstructions ... corners, door jambs, car doors/window frames, furniture, etc ... can also introduce some potential nasty surprises. Even just stepping up and over, or back & over/down, over curbs can become problematic.

Training & qual courses-of-fire which still require 1-handed shooting are also exceptions, of course.

My thoughts on "stances" have been heavily influenced by my martial arts involvement. What's done for learning and skills development is one thing. What's needed for dynamic, fast-paced, stressful and unpredictable situations in the real world may require some flexibility and the ability to transition among balanced learned positioning and postures. Quickly, at times.

I try to work with folks to emphasize their ability to form a "master grip", meaning their dominant hand, and then continue to maintain it during any required movement and changes in body positioning. Especially if the upper body has to turn/twist.

Then, for 2-handed shooting situations, I look to make sure their supporting hand isn't interfering with how their dominant hand is able to control things. A surprising number of folks don't appear to recognize when their own hands are sometimes "fighting" with each other for control and manipulation of the gun. It should be a concerted effort, looking to maximize the concerted efforts of both hands, not a "contest" between hands.

Then, I look to make sure the person remains properly balanced for conditions, whether static or dynamic for different moments, and throughout any changes in conditions. Sometimes it can seem like it's trying to learn to walk all over again, but there's no reason the walking & moving (and turning, bending, crouching, etc) skills of a lifetime can't be used as the foundation. They've already been learned, practiced and ingrained, right? Just not for shooting and/or fighting, perhaps.

Attention to trigger technique and control has to be maintained throughout any changes in circumstances and body posture, balance, movement, etc. Doesn't do anyone any good if attention to one part of the overall "technique" means another part is allowed to be come sloppy, and misses result.

This is obviously where having the assistance of an experienced trainer can be helpful. Not only to teach good skills, and identify any counter-productive habits, but to help identify any problems as learning occurs, and to make sure "new" parts of the overall techniques are built upon a solid foundation of parts previously learned.

"Fixing" a problem with technique requires first identifying and acknowledging that it exists. The corrective action can sometimes be easier than getting someone to accept that there's a need to change something, in the first place. ;)

Shooting, like the martial arts (isn't shooting a modern martial art?), is best built upon a solid foundation skillset. The more you progress (and want to progress), the more important understanding and mastery of the foundation "basics" becomes.

Just my thoughts.
 
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JonathanE, you may find that, like me, you have to spend a little time working on the precise placement of your left hand to make sure it's neutral. If I get it too far towards the rear, when I squeeze my left hand it has a tendency to nudge the gun left. If I'm shooting slow and steady, this doesn't really show up, but when I'm going fast (like in a USPSA match), accuracy goes to hell, especially on second shots... the sights just don't return neutrally.

Just fiddle around with your left/weak hand a bit. If you're used to a stance (like a weaver) where your arms are exerting opposing forces, you need to understand that your new goal is a NEUTRAL grip... one where the sights come up aligned upon the draw, and return to alignment after each shot. Getting that neutrality can sometime be a matter of a fairly minute adjustment. Don't give up on it.
 
ATLDave,
You're hitting it... the forces between my support hand and strong hand are not neutral. I'll continue to look for it.
 
Inebriated,
You're right, I skipped the last 30 seconds of video #1 when he mentions "backtension" from the strong hand's forearm. I went back and watched...
But now we're back to static, opposing forces again!
 
Ugh, I still remember the CATM guys giving me grief because I declined their 'expert' advice, veiled demand, that I use the cup-&-saucer grip. :scrutiny:

Of course, failing my annual qual would have only meant coming back and shooting (for free) again, but they decided not to fail me for not holding the M56 that way. ;)
 
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