Start load -Max load

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jeff-portnoy

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Hi.
Please explain to me
What does it mean in "load data powder" .... Start -Max ?
I mean if exceed max load - definitely boom danger. It is clearly.
But if start load lower than "load data powder",..... so why limits ?
 
MAX load = maximum allowable pressure for that combonation of components, in that test gun.

Start load = Generally a 10% reduction from the MAX load, but not always.

It generates lower safe pressure, no matter what else you do to it.

Reducing a load below the start load is generally not wise, as it could result in stuck bullets in the barrel with certain combinations of factors.

rc
 
Also, a few powders such as Winchester296/Hodgdon H-110 do not play well when loaded lighter than recommended starting loads.

The results can be as disastrous as an excessive powder charge.

Fortunately, the powder manufacturers have lots of warnings about such powders.
 
jeff-portnoy said:
....jesus, ... what you mean ???
whence overpressure???
Some powders are position sensitive, which means too little allows a wide variation in position and resulting ignition and pressure, which could be too low to get the bullet clear of the barrel.

I'm not sure what the deal is with H110. It could be that with not enough powder it doesn't build pressure linearly and spikes before the bullet moves far enough for the volume to increase as it should. I do know that I have experienced pressure signs at 23gr that I don't see at 24gr in 44mag.
 
Plus, who needs slow bullets ?

Pfft- get a slingshot !

Some powders however, can be downloaded significantly, and safely. Hodgdons does this for "reduced loads" using H4895 in rifle calibers down to about 65-70% of standard start loads.

The info is out there- either RC or JCWIT sent it to me some time ago- but all of my loading notes are all packed away.
 
Maximum charge: Over the maximum is dangerous due to higher pressures than recommended. Easy enough.

Minimum charge: Under the minimum can be dangerous for a couple of reasons.

Some bullets have been known to have the lead core separate from the jacket when the pressure/velocity is too low. That can leave a jacket in the bore as an obstruction.

Bullets can stick in the bore if the charge is too low. Jacketed and plated are the most prone to this, but you can stick a lead bullet in the barrel with very low charges. Again, a barrel obstruction.

If in either of these cases you fire another round with the obstruction still in the barrel, pressures can rise dramatically in some instances. This can cause as little as just another stuck bullet, to a bulged barrel, to a blown up gun, and possible injury to the shooter.


A squib round is another problem altogether. It is an accidentally undercharged round which sticks a bullet in the bore. If another full power round is fired without clearing that obstruction, it can blow up a gun.
 
There has been talk, without proof, for decades of "detonation," where a small charge is somehow magically distributed in a case such that most powder is at the front and rear of the case. When the primer goes off, both charges ignited and the two shock waves meet and form a much larger shock wave that blows up the gun. Of course, the low powder charge does not have the chemical energy needed to produce that pressure, but the idea is still around--despite test labs trying to duplicate for decades.
296/H110 are very difficult to ignite and pressure must be high enough. A light load will not produce enough pressure to ignite the whole mass of powder and you can get a semi-burned lump of powder stuck in the barrel (along with a stuck bullet). Thus, a magnum primer is required and enough powder to produce enough pressure fast enough to get full ignition.
What does happen is that at a velocity below 550fps, the bullet can get stuck. The very light charge is too light to maintain pressure and can not produce the pressure needed to push the bullet out of the barrel. Just the force of the primer is enough to push a bullet in a semi-auto pistol any where from half way out the barrel to actually eject the bullet (I used to do this in my 1911s to recover a spent bullet).
Thus, dropping 0.5gn below the starting load is NOT a recipe for disaster, unless it takes the load below 500-550 fps. The 10% reduction from max shows how totally arbitrary the start load is. The decades of very light target loads in .45 Auto and .38 Special for Bullseye competition further disproves all the concern about going below the starting load.
However, if you don't know how to feel a squib load, don't experiment with really reduced loads.
For most purposes, you will find the most accurate load somewhere between start and max and will never need to deviate beyond those limits.
 
Per Hodgdon's web site...

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

"For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%."

One problem with stuck bullets or other barrel obstructions is sometimes the shooter is unaware that they have happened. Rapid fire strings, too much focus on the target, and few other reasons catch the shooter shooting after the bore is obstructed.

Many folks have a fear of using W296 or H-110 for the above reason.

Only a few powders are so sensitive to marginally light loads, most powders are more forgiving but they all have some lower limit.
 
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Try to stay within recognized published manufactures data and few problems will be likely. When you start wildcatting problems can happen that would not seem logical. Get lots of experience before getting creative with any powder, primer, and load data. Small charges of some powders are dangerous like large charges of any powder. Read lots, get several manuals, check load data at least twice before beginning to reload.
 
First of all, I would like to see some PERSONAL testimony or some written first hand documentation that a jacket/core separation has EVER occurred because of a low pressure load.

Secondly, I have personal experience with the so called "detonation" with low pressure loads and I don't think the over pressure is caused by detonation at all. It happened only once to me and that was when I was working up loads in a Freedom Arms 454 Casull. When I shot, overpressure almost locked up the cylinder with the fired case and the problem resolved with an increase in powder charge.

Now for what I believe to be the mechanism. Most handloaders know that it takes more pressure to start a bullet that is already firmly stuck in the bore than it does to start a bullet with a little jump to the lands. With a low pressure load, and especially with a slower powder, ignition is not as good with low pressure as it is with higher pressure as you can easily see if you look in the bore after firing a low pressure load; you will see a lot of powder residue in the barrel after shooting.

So, you fire a low pressure load and the bullet starts down the barrel and starts to get stuck or maybe briefly actually stops. Meanwhile pressure is still building and finally (actually happening in fractions of a second) becomes great enough to both burn the powder efficiently and to start the bullet moving again. The resulting pressure is much greater than it would have been if the bullet hadn't stopped or almost stopped moving.

Fortunately, I was shooting a very strong revolver made for handling 65,000 psi pressures. With a lesser revolver, I very well could have blown the gun up.
 
I would like to see some PERSONAL testimony or some written first hand documentation that a jacket/core separation has EVER occurred because of a low pressure load.
Speer warns against it with their old half jacket bullet. They were concerned enough to warn against it and stop showing lighter than max loads for it. I would certainly concede it is unlikely.
 
And not only that, but they stopped selling those most excellent half-jacket bullets all together a few years ago.

Just too many problems dealing with folks loading mouse fart loads damaging guns with them according to Allen Jones, the Speer long time ballistics guru and load manual editor at the time.

rc
 
I experienced jacket separation in 44 mag back in the early 1980's with a reduced charge and an old style Speer Half jacket. I don't remember what the powder charge was, but I do know I was using 296 and had reduced the charge quite a bit. The jacket was lodged in the barrel, and fortunately I noticed the difference in how the round sounded and felt when the firearm discharged that I checked the barrel before firing another round. I don't know if the jacket alone would have caused that SBH to KB, but I'm fairly certain that what would have happened would not have been real healthy for the barrel, or possibly me?

Reloading data exists for a reason that is clearly foccused on safe and desired performance of a given component combination. Stick to what the books tell ya, and you'll be OK.

GS
 
It is amazingly EASY to make safe, reliable and accurate ammo, simply by following the published data. Personally I try to err on the side of safety and most always load using only mid-range data with my one powder Win 231/HP-38.

For my purposes -indoor range plinking at SD distances - I feel no need to load max, it would just waste powder and the paper targets don't seem to mind the mid range loadings - lol

That is what makes ME happy, and ME is all I care about. Experimenting is also a fun and rewarding part of the hobby for those who wish to experiment, but it isn't mandatory. Reloading is only rocket surgery for those who want it be.
 
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