Started cratering primers.

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@kmw1954
Are you saying ALL of your brass is from the exact same lot number ? No range pick ups or mixed headstamps whatsoever ?

I try not to give advice, I’d rather toss out a couple thoughts so please don’t feel obligated to answer.
 
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South Prairie Jim said:
@kmw1954
Are you saying ALL of your brass is from the exact same lot number ? No range pick ups or mixed headstamps whatsoever ?
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All brass is Norma and has been fired and reloaded in this gun at least 3 times. Right now I have been using the same 150pcs for all load development and testing. Another thought has been to move to some PMC brass that I have also available that I was shooting in my model 10. it too has been fired 2-3 times in my gun.

In all this 223 I have been shooting I have already fired appx. 400 rounds of these bullets, 1600 of these primers and 3 pounds of this same lot powder. I have also fired Hornady 68gr Match and about 1500 rounds of the RMR 69gr.. Over the course of the past 2.5 years I have also fired CCI 450 and Rem 7 1/2 primers with no significant difference. So none of this is new to me.

These 69gr Nosler were purchased from a friend in a 1k lot, he shot about 350 of them and moved on. He didn't like them. I'm shooting them because I got them for about 1/2 price. When they are gone I will most likely go back to the RMR.
 
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One thing I forgot & it’s the most simple. Check the shape of the FP. Too much tip Radius is a big factor in primer cratering. Also, are they just slightly cratered, or also pushed off center? If that is the case, check the FP hole being too big for the FP. This is a known Savage thing as well. Many people Bush the Bolt Heads. I can give you the guys info who does that. I actually replaced my Bolt Head with a PTG part. And couple with the FP I turned it for perfect fit in the hole. So I get nicely centered, perfect little primer
punches!:thumbup:

E2-AAD616-B557-46-CC-B1-FF-FC641993-DE18.jpg

Here’s the custom pin assembly I made. Heavier, maximum pin drop and a flat wire, Chrome-Silicon spring replaced the Factory spring. (Helps lower bolt lift) I put quite a bit of time in this.
62-CCD9-A0-E8-E9-4-DF8-B47-B-45322-CA38-A7-B.jpg
 
kmw1954 said:
Now to the CCI Primers. I have already been through over 1k CCI 400 SRP between my 2 Savages and never experienced a problem with them until now.
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kmw1954 said:
As stated I have fired about 1600 CCI400 previous to this time with no issues. So again, why now?
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I’ll restate this salient fact: CCI 400’s cup is too thin for what you’re using them for.

Could be any number of reasons why you got away with it until now. Probably some combination of variables that caused enough pressure to start blanking them.

The starting point for solving the issue is to stop using CCI 400s in high pressure cartridge applications
 
Yes, because YOUR Savage has the issues I’ve already outlined. Once those issues are remedied (the I did to mine before even shooting it, as it was a custom build), it is no longer an issue.
 
;)I’d actually still like to see some pictures of the affected cases, and see the cratering. Still people continue jumping on the “High Pressure” band wagon, but how are they besides the cratering? Are the primers significantly flattened? Normally the very FIRST of the pressure signs. Is it some type of new Smart Pressure that fill cause cratered, but not Flattened primers? ;)

Inquiring Minds would like to know!
 
The cratering creates a weak point that becomes the point of failure if other variables are present.

In this case, using a primer with a thin cup
 
Well thanks so much Dave and Nature Boy!Tried taking some pictures tonight but my lil Nikon won't focus close enough and my cell phone was dead, now charging.

As I mentioned in post #1 I believe the rifle bolt heat was purchased from Gun Shack which claim it is a factory replacement. Upon inspection of the bolt head I can see a shiny ring around the edge of the primer bore hole. Almost as though it has been beveled. So I will check that again and try to get a protrusion measurement. Then I will also load a few samples with both CCI 450 and Rem 7 1/2 primers to compare.

Once again I am using a load charge of 21.1 to start and 23.4 as max and am now seeing this flow at the 21.8 load level. Also the load OAL length published is 2.245" and I am actually loading at 2.265".. The OAL of these bullets, for the Nosler .892", for the SMK .893".. The length to ogive; Nosler.515" and the SMK .510"... So to me these are close enough to basically be the same with .005" within most acceptable tolerance ranges. Heck I get greater variance in total length with these Nosler bullets than .005".. So with this information I am seeing flow now at a 21.8gr powder charge which is well below max load even if max is 23.0gr...

So I have appointments all day tomorrow so hopefully I can tear into this tomorrow night and then load some test though I won't be back to the range until Thursday. But again thanks as I now have a few things to try.
 
I love a good mystery!:)

Note well how accurately it’s shooting next go, @kmw1954.
I think it’s a carbon ring. But there is usually a small degradation in accuracy from squishing the bullet through, in addition to the increase of pressure.
I feel like scratching from the carbon and undersized portions of the bullet lead to more copper fouling too.
I think my savage chamber is too long. I have Lapua brass that has not reached the throat yet.

It’s funny. It is over pressure. We just need to find why an established load, or rifle, changed to create it.

A second overlook of everything loading related is a good idea, but I think this is thee or four now, so I won’t say it.;)
 
kmw1954 said:
Well I certainly hope this isn't causing anyone to lose sleep! :uhoh:

Todays meeting didn't go as hoped so won't make it to the bench tonight. :(
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Nah’ Rifle guys are just enthusiastic about their sport / hobby and like to help other shooters work through details and achieve a goal or solve a problem.
 
OK, now have 30 rounds from 21.5 to 23.0gr.. 5ea in .3gr increments.. should be able to shoot them Thursday.
 
Sure, normally the way I do it for load workup but usually just 3 of each to try and find accuracy nodes then when I find the generally more accurate I go back and load that one again along with .1gr both sides of it. Sometimes all three will be good, others it will only be two.. In which case I will then also go one more higher of lower which sometimes I find the third one.
But this is also how I get some extra trigger time! I have also learned to trust the targets more than the chrono.
 
Nature Boy said:
I’ll restate this salient fact: CCI 400’s cup is too thin for what you’re using them for.
Could be any number of reasons why you got away with it until now. Probably some combination of variables that caused enough pressure to start blanking them.
The starting point for solving the issue is to stop using CCI 400s in high pressure cartridge applications
Click to expand...

Ding, Ding, Ding! I think we have a Winner!

Shot the weaker load first, 2 rounds, looked perfect. So jumped to the Near Max of 23.0gr of 2460 and no change from the first two I shot. So because I was busy on the range today I only shot 2 samples of each of the six loads and they all looked completely normal. Next I will load some with CCI450's to see if I get the same result.
 
So you didn’t replicate the issue but you found the solution? What causes you to find the primer as the culprit?

Color me confused. I am another that hasn’t ever had an issue with 400s in 223. I won’t dismiss the warnings about it and the REM 61/2, I guess I just need to qualify that with a “yet”?

I suppose I’d want to know which variables stacked to cause it.
Was the rifle cleaned at all before today’s session?
Is today significantly colder than other days?
 
Demi-human said:
So you didn’t replicate the issue but you found the solution? What causes you to find the primer as the culprit?

Color me confused. I am another that hasn’t ever had an issue with 400s in 223. I won’t dismiss the warnings about it and the REM 61/2, I guess I just need to qualify that with a “yet”?

I suppose I’d want to know which variables stacked to cause it.
Was the rifle cleaned at all before today’s session?
Is today significantly colder than other days?
Click to expand...

"didn't replicate"? I have been struggling with this issue for weeks. Had absolutely no trouble replicating this.
What causes you to find the primer as the culprit?... Simple replacement of the CCI 400 primer with no other component or procedure replacements. What is hard to understand about that?

Confused? Me too! I have a pistol that will not fire CCI Small Pistol Primers. They are too hard and results in 45% FTF, Winchester, Federal and Remington fire 100%. A Savage Axis 223 that will not fire CCI #41 Primers, Also too hard. So CCI 400 Small Rifle Primers too soft? Who would have thought!

I have fired 600 primers from this same brick Yet I did not notice this manifestation until the last 2 sleeves from this lot of 1k. I still have another 50 pieces of brass already primed waiting to be loaded. What do do with these? So as I stated, I will now also load some of these the same, only with CCI 450 primers.
 
@Demi-human

See this pic from my thread on the subject:

index.php


It’s a Savage, with the ubiquitous slop between the FP and FP hole that the brand is known for. That creates the cratering which becomes a weak point.

Now, why did I get away with the first 2 CCI 400s and blank the 3rd? Likely because the thinner cup puts it on the ragged edge of failure. Not every time but once is enough. Piercing a primer is a “stop, do not pass go” event. It’s not safe to keep shooting that load until you’ve figured it out.

In my case, CCI 450s, CCI BR4s, Fed 205M and Rem 7 1/2 all perform without blanking.

Q. E. D. - Savage with firing pin slop makes craters + a high pressure round like a .223 + thin cup CCI 400 = a blanked primer

Change a variable in the above and you’re probably OK. The easiest one to fix is the primer.
 
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Yes those are exactly looking like what I was experiencing.

Shot a total of 30 of the same loads as what I had trouble with, only with Rem 7 1/2 primers instead of the CCI 400. All looked normal again.
 
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