Starting to reload a new cartridge

[vaalpens]

I have been a bit concerned about lack of accuracy and high ES numbers.

Today I decided to do setback tests with three different headstamps (WIN, Federal, Starline) and RMR FMJ and Berrys's plated bullets. I am not going to list the measurements, but basically there were zero setback after cycling the dummy rounds through the LCP twice, and pushing each dummy round down on my bench.

After the test I used my RCBS kinetic puller to pull the bullets, and this is where I can feel that there is possibly lower neck tension. This is obviously all feel, but all bullets came out on the easy side. The way I pull them is normally two light taps, and then a light hit. Second round would be two light taps and a heavier hit. All of them came out in the second round, before or with the last hit. The only way I will remedy this is with a heavier crimp or maybe seating it deeper. I am just not sure if it is worth it.

With my load research I found this article. It shows a few loads and the results. Based on these results it seems that my higher ES numbers and groupings I see, are basically in line with other LCP testing. maybe I should not be that concerned about it.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_380_acp_the_easy_way_101410/99837

 

[Soonerpesek]

I have been a bit concerned about lack of accuracy and high ES numbers.

Today I decided to do setback tests with three different headstamps (WIN, Federal, Starline) and RMR FMJ and Berrys's plated bullets. I am not going to list the measurements, but basically there were zero setback after cycling the dummy rounds through the LCP twice, and pushing each dummy round down on my bench.

After the test I used my RCBS kinetic puller to pull the bullets, and this is where I can feel that there is possibly lower neck tension. This is obviously all feel, but all bullets came out on the easy side. The way I pull them is normally two light taps, and then a light hit. Second round would be two light taps and a heavier hit. All of them came out in the second round, before or with the last hit. The only way I will remedy this is with a heavier crimp or maybe seating it deeper. I am just not sure if it is worth it.

With my load research I found this article. It shows a few loads and the results. Based on these results it seems that my higher ES numbers and groupings I see, are basically in line with other LCP testing. maybe I should not be that concerned about it.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_380_acp_the_easy_way_101410/99837

If you didn't experience any setback from cycling or pressing on the bench, I would say tension is fine.
There isn't a whole lotta that bullet in the case is prolly the reason you didn't have to really get into it with the hammer....................JMO

 

[Blue68f100]

I have been a bit concerned about lack of accuracy and high ES numbers.

Today I decided to do setback tests with three different headstamps (WIN, Federal, Starline) and RMR FMJ and Berrys's plated bullets. I am not going to list the measurements, but basically there were zero setback after cycling the dummy rounds through the LCP twice, and pushing each dummy round down on my bench.

After the test I used my RCBS kinetic puller to pull the bullets, and this is where I can feel that there is possibly lower neck tension. This is obviously all feel, but all bullets came out on the easy side. The way I pull them is normally two light taps, and then a light hit. Second round would be two light taps and a heavier hit. All of them came out in the second round, before or with the last hit. The only way I will remedy this is with a heavier crimp or maybe seating it deeper. I am just not sure if it is worth it.

With my load research I found this article. It shows a few loads and the results. Based on these results it seems that my higher ES numbers and groupings I see, are basically in line with other LCP testing. maybe I should not be that concerned about it.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_380_acp_the_easy_way_101410/99837

Have you checked case volume on the different mfg? With a small case any variation is going to be a large percentage just like 0.1gr variation in charge weight.

 

[vaalpens]

If you didn't experience any setback from cycling or pressing on the bench, I would say tension is fine.
There isn't a whole lotta that bullet in the case is prolly the reason you didn't have to really get into it with the hammer....................JMO

The bullets I used were RN bullets, so not a lot of bullet in the case. I used to keep track of the seating depth for 9mm due to all the different 9mm bullets, but it seems I will have to do the same for 380auto. Longer cases will also work better.

Have you checked case volume on the different mfg? With a small case any variation is going to be a large percentage just like 0.1gr variation in charge weight.

I have not checked case volume, but will compare seating depth if I use different bullets. Any change in seating depth will have to have an adjustment in the powder range also.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have been a bit concerned about lack of accuracy and high ES numbers.

Today I decided to do setback tests with three different headstamps (WIN, Federal, Starline) and RMR FMJ and Berrys's plated bullets. I am not going to list the measurements, but basically there were zero setback after cycling the dummy rounds through the LCP twice, and pushing each dummy round down on my bench.

After the test I used my RCBS kinetic puller to pull the bullets, and this is where I can feel that there is possibly lower neck tension. This is obviously all feel, but all bullets came out on the easy side. The way I pull them is normally two light taps, and then a light hit. Second round would be two light taps and a heavier hit. All of them came out in the second round, before or with the last hit. The only way I will remedy this is with a heavier crimp or maybe seating it deeper. I am just not sure if it is worth it.

With my load research I found this article. It shows a few loads and the results. Based on these results it seems that my higher ES numbers and groupings I see, are basically in line with other LCP testing. maybe I should not be that concerned about it.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_380_acp_the_easy_way_101410/99837

Keep in mind the LCP was designed for Minute of Chest Cavity accuracy. It might be your goal is on the unrealistic side and will need revision. Also keep in mind that the bullet is part of the accuracy equation. The SIG V-Crown is a self defense tool not a match competition tool. Yes, it is possible to wring out the last Nth degree of accuracy from a small platform. I’m simply recommending you do another top-to-bottom assessment and decide if you really do have the best components for your new goal of match-grade accuracy.
Just a thought.

 

[vaalpens]

Keep in mind the LCP was designed for Minute of Chest Cavity accuracy. It might be your goal is on the unrealistic side and will need revision. Also keep in mind that the bullet is part of the accuracy equation. The SIG V-Crown is a self defense tool not a match competition tool. Yes, it is possible to wring out the last Nth degree of accuracy from a small platform. I’m simply recommending you do another top-to-bottom assessment and decide if you really do have the best components for your new goal of match-grade accuracy.
Just a thought.

Thanks for the comments. I am not looking for matchgrade accuracy, but rather realistic accuracy. This is why I posted the link to the shootingtimes article. I think the article gives me a good benchmark for accuracy and ES numbers.

Based on my results so far, I would think below 1.6" is good/acceptable accuracy for a load. This is shooting from a rest, so I do expect accuracy better than Minute of Chest.

I also did a 10 shot drill at 25ft, with a 4.5" grouping, all in the A area. This is basically what I am looking for in accuracy for my LCP Max. It wasn't below 10 seconds, but I am still getting to know my LCP max.

 

[vaalpens]

I am putting my load development on hold for now since I am planning a trip and need to add some 380auto inventory.

This is easier said than done since I just started my load development. So how do I pick a load to build inventory?:

• Do I just pick the most accurate load (2.9gr of HP38)?
• Do I pick an accurate middle of the road load (4.0gr CFE Pistol)?
• Do I pick an accurate higher velocity load (3.9gr or 4.2gr BE86)?

Since I have also tested SIG V-Crown ammo, I decided to make it practice ammo, close to SIG V-Crown performance.

• Has to be the same or better accuracy (1.8" grouping at 25ft)
• Has the same same recoil feel if possible, even though the V-Crown is 90gr

After crunching the numbers I decided on 4.0gr of CFE Pistol:

• Grouping at 25ft 1.09"
• Calculated 3.41 ft-lbs vs V-Crown 3.48 ft-lbs

An added benefit was that 4.0gr of CFE Pistol is .3cc, which makes it very easy to dip and trickle.

I had some primed cases in preparation for load development, so I decided to just use them. That explains the two separate loads of less than 50 each, at least for now.

 

[vaalpens]

Today I received an early Christmas gift from Dudedog, an upstanding and generous THR member.

Dudedog also reload 380auto, but has probably just enough cases for his needed inventory. That did no stop him from scouring the earth to find some available cases for me. Long story short, since he is connected, and well liked, a member at his shooting club, felt obliged to part with enough cases to fill a small USPS fixed rate box.

And if the generosity wasn't enough, Dudedog decided to clean and deprime the cases. The cleaning went well, but the depriming resulted in a broken advance pawl.

Thanks Dudedog, l really appreciate the generosity, and sorry about the advance pawl.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Wow . HUGE shoutout to the @Dudedog ! Way to be, Sir.

 

[Dudedog]

and sorry about the advance pawl.

No worries, Hornady sent me 2 pawls for free, they arrived this afternoon and a new one is installed and the press is timed and ready to go.
(I only needed one but talked Hornady into sending me a spare!)
To the lady I spoke to at Hornady CS!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

No worries, Hornady sent me 2 pawls for free, they arrived this afternoon and a new one is installed and the press is timed and ready to go.
(I only needed one but talked Hornady into sending me a spare!)
To the lady I spoke to at Hornady CS!

If you think about it you might want to drop a note to their support email complementary to the lady on the phone - and include enough details so they can identify her.

I did that today for the guy with HPE who helped me with a project. He said those emails get read by management and are a huge deal.

 

[vaalpens]

I reached another milestone today with the new 380Auto I am loading.

The way I process cases is to collect my "range brass" in a canister. Then deprime them and put them into a "2b cleaned" canister. The "2b cleaned" canister(s) could be one to many, depending on how much brass I have. When I need brass to load, then I just take the oldest "2b cleaned" canister, clean them in the FART, dry them, sort by headstamp, and put them in the "ready for load" container. Once I have/need more than one "2b cleaned" canister, then I start numbering them so I always know which one is the oldest.

380Auto now also have canisters in place, so it can now also be processed the same as my other cartridges.

You probably thing that the "2b cleaned" cases look clean, and you are correct. But I am going to clean them again for the primer pockets since I just deprimed some of them.

 

[vaalpens]

I am putting my load development on hold for now since I am planning a trip and need to add some 380auto inventory.

I am back from my trip, with no issues shooting the LCP Max. I think the only problem I have with the LCP is that I have difficulty locating all my 380auto brass. The LCP max ejection pattern is not very consistent, so the brass can go anywhere. based on my records it looks like I put about 100 rounds through the LCP Max without any issues.

The shooting on my trip was done at Ben Avery, north of Phoenix.


It is time to get back to my load development, so I am currently finalizing my next test loads. The next powders will probably be TiteGroup and W244.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I am back from my trip, with no issues shooting the LCP Max. I think the only problem I have with the LCP is that I have difficulty locating all my 380auto brass. The LCP max ejection pattern is not very consistent, so the brass can go anywhere. based on my records it looks like I put about 100 rounds through the LCP Max without any issues.

The shooting on my trip was done at Ben Avery, north of Phoenix.
View attachment 1188765

It is time to get back to my load development, so I am currently finalizing my next test loads. The next powders will probably be TiteGroup and W244.

For what it’s worth, there are a lot of variables to ejection patterns but the three I’ve observed most commonly are: slide velocity (which implies pressure changes shot-to-shot), positional variation (which implies recoil impulse, shooter wrist strength and hand movement - as well as pressure changes shot-to-shot), and extractor problems, including claw angle and spring strength. Ejectors are typically rigid enough not to have much effect on ejection angle or distance. Not compared to the other factors.

 

[vaalpens]

For what it’s worth, there are a lot of variables to ejection patterns but the three I’ve observed most commonly are: slide velocity (which implies pressure changes shot-to-shot), positional variation (which implies recoil impulse, shooter wrist strength and hand movement - as well as pressure changes shot-to-shot), and extractor problems, including claw angle and spring strength. Ejectors are typically rigid enough not to have much effect on ejection angle or distance. Not compared to the other factors.

Thanks for the comments. The next time shooting the LCP Max I will have to pay closer attention to the ejection angle/distance to try and identify any trends. The LCP Max is still new with only about 250 rounds through it.

 

[vaalpens]

A while ago I received some PIF 380auto bullets from Dudedog, which I have kept for a later date until I have some experience loading 380 Auto. Today I decide that it is time to start planning my loads for these bullets.

I normally handle these bullets differently since I have a fixed number of them (for now), so I target a specific load, to test and load some practice/familiarization rounds.

First I use the length of the bullets, calculate seating depth per COL, verifying ogave is outside mouth, decide on a COL based on my calculation and known loads, then create dummy rounds. The dummy rounds then go through a plunk and setback test.

The four bullets I am starting the planning for are:
Sierra V-Crown 90gr: Length .400", COL .920"
XTreme 100gr RNFP: Length .4335", COL .955"
TJ Conevera 95gr JHP: Length .4655", COL .980"
Berrys or TMJ 100gr RN: Length .4655", COL .980"

The dummy rounds all passed the plunk and setback test. The COL .980" bullets need to be checked again to make sure they feed properly if multiple bullets are loaded in the magazine, due to being close to max COL.

I still need to decide on the powders I am going to use, but for the V-Crown I will probably use BE86. The reason for this is that Alliant has load data for a 90gr JHP, and I pulled a factory V-Crown bullet. The powder used is about 4.1gr, filling up just under .4cc. This is similar to BE86, and within Alliant load data. My proposed COL is lower, but the V-Crown I am loading is shorter than the factory V-Crown bullet.

Picture of the dummy rounds:

 

[GooseGestapo]

Valpens;
To get best accuracy and low ES, I suggest several things.
First, segregate brass by head stamp. Small variations in small cases with small powder charges equates to big variations in velocities.

Secondly, I’ve found Winchester (Win) head stamps from Winchester White Box USA ammo to have the thinnest case necks. With either a Speer 90gr GoldDot or Hornady 90gr XTP, the bullets are easily pushed in. Gecko, or PPU seem to be the thickest…

Thirdly, try different primers. Federal #100 have been my mainstay from 30yr of shooting PPC. They definitely are the softest primers and often most consistent. However, they have also been the hardest to get and most expensive.

Lastly, consistency of powder charge is critical. A 0.1gr variation in a 2.9gr charge is a 3.5% difference. That equates to approximately 35fps at 900-1,000fps.

Last, but not least is bullet diameter. I predominantly use cast bullets. My preferred .380acp bullet is the Lee 95gr TL-RFN. I cast them from a 6-cavity mold, powder coat, and size .357”. The feed well and are real accurate over 3.2gr of HP38.
My S&W BodyGuard is about the same or maybe slightly more accurate than your LCP. My Beretta M85BB (8+1shot) shoots about 3” at 25yds. 7yds is essentially a ragged hole..
I’ve got a Ruger LCP .22lr that basically “sprays “ bullets, but generally where you point them.
Guess which gets carried the most! (LCP!)
With Aguila Inteceptor, it’s 99.+% reliable, and gets about 1,000fps. 11rds…

 

[vaalpens]

Thanks for the comments and recommendations.

First, segregate brass by head stamp. Small variations in small cases with small powder charges equates to big variations in velocities.

Done. In addition I sort them by length, so when I load I will adjust my Lee FCD every 5 rounds to maintain a consistent crimp.

Secondly, I’ve found Winchester (Win) head stamps from Winchester White Box USA ammo to have the thinnest case necks. With either a Speer 90gr GoldDot or Hornady 90gr XTP, the bullets are easily pushed in. Gecko, or PPU seem to be the thickest…

I have realized that, especially with 380auto. I am still figuring out which ones to do a setback test before using a specific bullet.

Thirdly, try different primers. Federal #100 have been my mainstay from 30yr of shooting PPC. They definitely are the softest primers and often most consistent. However, they have also been the hardest to get and most expensive.

I have more Fed#100 primers than cci500, so that is what is mostly loaded. I basically use primers based on ease of seating. With 9mm I stick to Fed #100, but 357sig I always use CCI500.

Lastly, consistency of powder charge is critical. A 0.1gr variation in a 2.9gr charge is a 3.5% difference. That equates to approximately 35fps at 900-1,000fps.

I will use the lee auto drum for loads on the low end of the range, but still do individual weighing for higher range loads. Luckily 380auto is a lower shooting volume cartridge.

Last, but not least is bullet diameter. I predominantly use cast bullets. My preferred .380acp bullet is the Lee 95gr TL-RFN. I cast them from a 6-cavity mold, powder coat, and size .357”. The feed well and are real accurate over 3.2gr of HP38.
My S&W BodyGuard is about the same or maybe slightly more accurate than your LCP. My Beretta M85BB (8+1shot) shoots about 3” at 25yds. 7yds is essentially a ragged hole.

I haven't started loading any cast bullets yet, but I will probably do at some point, especially with the setback issue.