That's a good response from S&W, which increases respect for them as a company. Too many manufacturers use the whole steel-case-voids-any-warranty thing purely because it gives them an "accepted" liability loophole, IMO. In other words....they say that because they can get away with it.
Steel Cased ammo bad in an AR? Pshaw.
- Thread starter mattlove444
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That's a good response from S&W, which increases respect for them as a company. Too many manufacturers use the whole steel-case-voids-any-warranty thing purely because it gives them an "accepted" liability loophole, IMO. In other words....they say that because they can get away with it.
tinygnat219
Member
Since my AR-15 is chambered in 5.45X39, all I CAN shoot is steel-cased ammo. I typically shoot Silver Bear, or the new Hornady loads.
FMJMIKE
Member
Ahhhhh............Proof positive that steel case is OK in an AR-15 !!! It boils down to in spec chambers and just cleaning the darn rifles more often...........
Oh............And cleaning chamber when switching between brass and steel case ammo.
Oh............And cleaning chamber when switching between brass and steel case ammo.
Chris95
Member
christcorp, understand this, I was simply using the mosin as an example, with all do respect I assumed you would have the sense too realize that I was just trying to say stay away from old laquered cases in any gun because it will cause problems.
"it would be wrong for anyone to tell you that you should shoot steel case ammo; it's just as wrong for you to tell others they shouldn't."
"Or, you could buy into the HYPE and buy a titanium firing pin for $34.95. (Don't buy into the hype)."
both of these are quotes from christcorp. Contradictory much? Please stay on subject this thread is about steel case in ARs.
Two more points for you, please read the posts carefully to avoid ignorant comments especially those that can be taken as personal attacks "you obviously know nothing about guns or physics" sounds quite personal to me. Lastly it would be well advised if you wouldn't attack someone for having an opinion. ie because they don't like steel cases.
"it would be wrong for anyone to tell you that you should shoot steel case ammo; it's just as wrong for you to tell others they shouldn't."
"Or, you could buy into the HYPE and buy a titanium firing pin for $34.95. (Don't buy into the hype)."
both of these are quotes from christcorp. Contradictory much? Please stay on subject this thread is about steel case in ARs.
Two more points for you, please read the posts carefully to avoid ignorant comments especially those that can be taken as personal attacks "you obviously know nothing about guns or physics" sounds quite personal to me. Lastly it would be well advised if you wouldn't attack someone for having an opinion. ie because they don't like steel cases.
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Chris95
Member
Please let me apoligize on to anyone who feels attacked by christcorp in any way, please do not let his disrespect reflect on the other members of THR.
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christcorp
Member
Don't apologize for me. You lash at me for supposedly being a hypocrite, and then you become contemptuous. You actually need to grow up and get a little thicker skin.
As for my hypocrisy that you claim, I make it quite clear that people need to try for themselves. Not to just take the word of anyone else. Including me. But it appears you like to read and quote the parts you want to use, and not put the entire posts into context. One thing is for sure, you are not my keeper. You don't speak for me. And if you don't like my comments in response to points I consider plain wrong, then debate me or ignore me. Either way is fine by me. If you tell me you like brass and don't like steel, that's fine by me. It''s a preference. If you like semi-auto over revolver; again, fine by me. It's simply a preference. But if a person says that steel case ammo will harm your weapon, then those people do not know what they are saying. It's no longer a preference or an opinion; they are simply wrong. There's a difference in having a preference or an opinion, and misleading. I am not saying you were doing that. "Don't read into it". But I will respond when a person expresses what supposedly is truth, when in fact, it's simply ignorant prejudice.
As for my hypocrisy that you claim, I make it quite clear that people need to try for themselves. Not to just take the word of anyone else. Including me. But it appears you like to read and quote the parts you want to use, and not put the entire posts into context. One thing is for sure, you are not my keeper. You don't speak for me. And if you don't like my comments in response to points I consider plain wrong, then debate me or ignore me. Either way is fine by me. If you tell me you like brass and don't like steel, that's fine by me. It''s a preference. If you like semi-auto over revolver; again, fine by me. It's simply a preference. But if a person says that steel case ammo will harm your weapon, then those people do not know what they are saying. It's no longer a preference or an opinion; they are simply wrong. There's a difference in having a preference or an opinion, and misleading. I am not saying you were doing that. "Don't read into it". But I will respond when a person expresses what supposedly is truth, when in fact, it's simply ignorant prejudice.
Fellas be civil or take it to pm.
i agree that there is a lot of hype behind the fear of steel case ammo. ive put 2,000 rds of Wolf through my M1A and it shoots fine. sure i might come upon a bad primer every 100rds but hey......its worth not paying out the bumb for .308 ammo. the ammo will cause you to become a clean-freak though......and you should clean your gun at least within two days after that shooting that stuff.
that being said, if i do have a concern it is not about the steel CASE........it is about the steel JACKET on the projectile. not too many people ever talk about how Wolf ammo has a steel jacket and some may not even know because Wolf puts a thin copper jacket on top of the steel jacket. i have a chrome barrel but i do wonder if shooting that Wolf will wear on my barrel over time.
that being said, if i do have a concern it is not about the steel CASE........it is about the steel JACKET on the projectile. not too many people ever talk about how Wolf ammo has a steel jacket and some may not even know because Wolf puts a thin copper jacket on top of the steel jacket. i have a chrome barrel but i do wonder if shooting that Wolf will wear on my barrel over time.
FMJMIKE
Member
And what if the steel jacket is made out of steel softer than copper ??? That's the real question. Anyone got the knowledge to test this ???
christcorp
Member
Steel jackets on bullets have been used since before any of us were born. I buy a lot of ammo from the CMP for my M1-Garand, and Steel jacketed bullets are quite normal. The military ammo I buy on a regular basis from them says:
"4C3006X215-192P - M2 Ball, .30-06 Greek HXP (Pyrkal) manufacture. Packagesin 8 rd enbloc clips, 6 clips per bandoleer, 4 banoleers per .30 cal can. 192 rds in a .30 cal can. Boxer primed, non-corrosive. Headstamp varies HXP62-HXP80. THIS AMMO ATTRACTS A MAGNET. weight is 15 lbs per can."
The steel jackets are made extremely thin and are very soft. Many steel jacketed bullets are copper washed or coated; along with some nickle. It provides a lubricate affect, as well as not allowing the steel to rust. Mind you, there's a difference between "Steel Core" and "Steel jacket".
Point is: Wearing out a barrel because of "Steel Jacketed" bullets is something you couldn't live long enough to do. The barrel would most likely outlive all but the individual who was shooting 100+ rounds every day. And wearing out that barrel wasn't because of steel jacketed bullet, but because they're shooting 30,000+ rounds a year through it. Can I provide actual evidence or barrel wear proof? No, I can't. But I trust my 1955 and 1943 M1-Garands. I trust what I've seen. I've shot literally thousands of rounds of steel jacketed ammo through those military weapons; because that's how the ammo is made; and it doesn't wear anything. Even a lot of the "Coveted Lake City" ammunition which most M1-Garand owners love to get hold of; made in the USA; which is a lot more expensive that the greek or other available military ammo, is steel cased.
The "Steel jacket" is soft. It's thin. And it's coated. There are no problems with using it in your rifles.
"4C3006X215-192P - M2 Ball, .30-06 Greek HXP (Pyrkal) manufacture. Packagesin 8 rd enbloc clips, 6 clips per bandoleer, 4 banoleers per .30 cal can. 192 rds in a .30 cal can. Boxer primed, non-corrosive. Headstamp varies HXP62-HXP80. THIS AMMO ATTRACTS A MAGNET. weight is 15 lbs per can."
The steel jackets are made extremely thin and are very soft. Many steel jacketed bullets are copper washed or coated; along with some nickle. It provides a lubricate affect, as well as not allowing the steel to rust. Mind you, there's a difference between "Steel Core" and "Steel jacket".
Point is: Wearing out a barrel because of "Steel Jacketed" bullets is something you couldn't live long enough to do. The barrel would most likely outlive all but the individual who was shooting 100+ rounds every day. And wearing out that barrel wasn't because of steel jacketed bullet, but because they're shooting 30,000+ rounds a year through it. Can I provide actual evidence or barrel wear proof? No, I can't. But I trust my 1955 and 1943 M1-Garands. I trust what I've seen. I've shot literally thousands of rounds of steel jacketed ammo through those military weapons; because that's how the ammo is made; and it doesn't wear anything. Even a lot of the "Coveted Lake City" ammunition which most M1-Garand owners love to get hold of; made in the USA; which is a lot more expensive that the greek or other available military ammo, is steel cased.
The "Steel jacket" is soft. It's thin. And it's coated. There are no problems with using it in your rifles.
X-Rap
Member
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- Sep 23, 2006
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- 6,657
Steel or brass, the reason for its use is economy, steel is not a better material to build casings from but it is cheaper, the same goes for bullets, I doubt that you will be seeing Nosler unveiling their super target bullet that is steel jacketed.
Saying that steel will not wear as much as brass casings or copper bullets may be a little disingenuious but so will saying that it will crater your gun with limited use.
I have an AR that has had a couple cases or Wolf shot through it without problem and I keep a couple cases to suplement my LC SHTF stash so I am not afraid of it but I believe if two rifles were set side by side the one shooting steel cases and bullets would start to degrade first all things being equal. I also believe it would be very far down the road and in the case of an AR, the parts could be replaced fairly easily and inexpensively aside from the barrel.
I like brass because I reload, I wouldn't buy a steel jacketed bullet unless it was all that was available, that's me.
Saying that steel will not wear as much as brass casings or copper bullets may be a little disingenuious but so will saying that it will crater your gun with limited use.
I have an AR that has had a couple cases or Wolf shot through it without problem and I keep a couple cases to suplement my LC SHTF stash so I am not afraid of it but I believe if two rifles were set side by side the one shooting steel cases and bullets would start to degrade first all things being equal. I also believe it would be very far down the road and in the case of an AR, the parts could be replaced fairly easily and inexpensively aside from the barrel.
I like brass because I reload, I wouldn't buy a steel jacketed bullet unless it was all that was available, that's me.
wally
Member
Exactly, its like shoot ten cases of cheap steel cased ammo and get a "free" AR with the savings.
Works for me!
i will also say that Wolf and other steel cased ammo have gotten a reputation for being inaccurate. for my .308 i either buy Wolf or old surplus. the Wolf always outshoots the surplus. i can shoot 3 MOA with the Wolf just fine. Wolf is also good for hunting. did yall know that the FMJ Wolf has a hollow tip? they are not solid lead. i think that was the Russians's way around the Geneva Convention.
anyway, Wolf is good ammo IMHO. it is dirty and not the most reliable but i save about $10 for every mag i shoot.
anyway, Wolf is good ammo IMHO. it is dirty and not the most reliable but i save about $10 for every mag i shoot.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
High Power shooters consider a barrel worn out at +-10,000 rounds. High-round count 3gun shooters might go a little bit longer since their accuracy requirements are slightly less, though they tend to put more stress on a barrel due to firing the rifles extremely rapidly.
I'm not as well versed with 30-06 as I am .223, but I find any claim that "Wearing out a barrel because of "Steel Jacketed" bullets is something you couldn't live long enough to do" to be highly suspect. People wear barrels out all the time, and thin or not, I find it hard to believe that steel jacketed ammo would not result in faster barrel wear.
This, coupled with your belief that AR bolt carriers only last for 10,000 rounds, makes me suspicious of your claims.
I just finished loading up some magazines with some steel cased .223 for a range trip tomorrow. This is a new brand, but if it works, I plan to use it for practice/plinking. I save brass cases, so it's nice to be able to sweep and toss them
christcorp
Member
Actually, I said that the "Bolt" would last normally between 5,000 and 8,000 and that the "Carrier Group" would last many times more than that. As for the steel cases wearing on the bolt more than brass, basic physics will argue that. Harder metals wear down softer metals. Just like steel wears down flint, and granite wears down shale. The steel in the bolt is a lot harder than the steel that the cases are made of. Bolts wear down, but not because of the cases. They wear down from the chambering and contact with the other steel receiver parts.
As for steel jacketed, there is usually enough copper/nickel coating on the steel jacket, to make wearing of the barrel pretty insignificant. Now if we're talking steel core ammo, where the entire bullet is steel and not lead, I could possibly buy that. But not a lead bullet with a thin steel jacket that's coated with copper/nickel.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Steel core ammunition is a steel penetrator, sometimes surrounded by lead, and then covered with a copper jacket.
The penetrator usually only makes up a portion of the internals of the bullet.
You can see an example of a bisected bullet with a steel penetrator here.
In no steel core/penetrator ammunition that I'm aware of does the steel component of the bullet come in touch with the lands or grooves of the barrel.
Hatterasguy
Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2010
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- 1,604
I never had any issues with steel, IMHO people make to big of a deal out of it.
The way I see it, if a military rifle can't digest different types of ammo, its not much of a rifle. That includes brass and steel case and of high and very low quality.
Since I shoot military firearms, for plinking I buy whatever is cheaper, nothing I own has any issue with steel.
The way I see it, if a military rifle can't digest different types of ammo, its not much of a rifle. That includes brass and steel case and of high and very low quality.
Since I shoot military firearms, for plinking I buy whatever is cheaper, nothing I own has any issue with steel.
christcorp
Member
Sorry; should have clarified. I meant if the entire bullet was steel. Then it's pure density would in fact be a problem on the barrel. Then again, it probably would be a big problem, because the bullet wouldn't be able to be cut into the rifling and rotate. Basically, pretty much not practical or possible. But that was an extreme. You are correct that a steel core does have lead or another softer metal around it.I must be mistaken but I thought steel core would be better than steel jacket simply because the steel wouldn't be in contact with the bore.
But that's basically my point with the steel jacket. A bullet has to be able to be cut into by the rifling, in order for it to be able to spin coming out of the barrel. That means that the barrel and rifling MUST be of a harder metal, than the bullet. I just don't see how the soft thin steel jacket, with lead beneath it, is going to harm the barrel. Just like the steel that the bolt is made of, is a much harder steel than the steel case on the ammo. I've worked with a lot of machinery, and we use harder metals to cut through softer metals. I just can not accept that the steel case and or jacketed bear/wolf/mfs/etc... ammo is a harder steel than the bolt and or barrel.
I know of Match shooters that will claim a barrel is "shot out" and have it replaced at 3000 rounds.
I know of M16A1 chrome lined training rifles that have had 30,000+ rounds fired through a single barrel that can still get a young soldier qualified.
It is all in the perspective of what someone considers "shot out."
Fact is the great and vast majority of casual shooters will NEVER "shoot out" a barrel in a lifetime of shooting if they maintain their firearms, especially now with non-corrosive/ non-errosive priming compounds and very good cleaning supplies available readily everywhere.
On page one I stated that using steel case in a 5.56 NATO chamber and keeping the gun clean presents few problems.
One of the moderators pointed out that keeping the gun lubrucated goes a long way to improving reliability.
I should have pointed out that lubricating the gun is part of keeping it clean AND maintained.
EVERY single AR15 that I have had to pull stuck and broken steel cases from demonstrated very poor cleaning and maintenance.
All except two had .223 commercial chamber dimensions and only ONE had a chrome lined bore.
I have had ZERO problems shooting Silver Bear steel case ammo through my rifles but admit that I will not shoot Wolf ammo through them as the vast majority of stuck cases have been Wolf and I think the major issue comes from very loose tolerence dimensions of the Wolf made cases more than any other reason.
The stuff seems top vary wildly in overall dimensions from one box to the next and one lot to the next.
Just my humble observations from about twenty years of pulling stuck cases out of AR15 rifles.
I know of M16A1 chrome lined training rifles that have had 30,000+ rounds fired through a single barrel that can still get a young soldier qualified.
It is all in the perspective of what someone considers "shot out."
Fact is the great and vast majority of casual shooters will NEVER "shoot out" a barrel in a lifetime of shooting if they maintain their firearms, especially now with non-corrosive/ non-errosive priming compounds and very good cleaning supplies available readily everywhere.
On page one I stated that using steel case in a 5.56 NATO chamber and keeping the gun clean presents few problems.
One of the moderators pointed out that keeping the gun lubrucated goes a long way to improving reliability.
I should have pointed out that lubricating the gun is part of keeping it clean AND maintained.
EVERY single AR15 that I have had to pull stuck and broken steel cases from demonstrated very poor cleaning and maintenance.
All except two had .223 commercial chamber dimensions and only ONE had a chrome lined bore.
I have had ZERO problems shooting Silver Bear steel case ammo through my rifles but admit that I will not shoot Wolf ammo through them as the vast majority of stuck cases have been Wolf and I think the major issue comes from very loose tolerence dimensions of the Wolf made cases more than any other reason.
The stuff seems top vary wildly in overall dimensions from one box to the next and one lot to the next.
Just my humble observations from about twenty years of pulling stuck cases out of AR15 rifles.
christcorp
Member
I shoot all sorts of steel case russian ammo. My favorites have been Silver bear and MFS. (I prefer the zinc coating instead of polymer, even though I shoot a lot of tula polymer ammo too). Anyway; here is a link of a trial done a couple months ago, printed in "Weapons World", test done by Assistant Rangemaster
Deputy Randy Post, Volusia County Sheriff’s Office. They compared the MFS to their current ammo: Federal 55gr 5.56mm XM193. They were looking for a less expensive alternative. The 1st link is the "Facebook" place for weaponsworld.com. But I provided a 2nd link to the same review on the weaponsworld.com website, in case you don't like interacting on the facebook page. Very short article, but very interesting.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/weapo...c-plated-steel-case-55gr-fmj-/151342978242318
http://www.weaponsworld.com/reviews/mfs-223-remington-55-grain-fmj
Deputy Randy Post, Volusia County Sheriff’s Office. They compared the MFS to their current ammo: Federal 55gr 5.56mm XM193. They were looking for a less expensive alternative. The 1st link is the "Facebook" place for weaponsworld.com. But I provided a 2nd link to the same review on the weaponsworld.com website, in case you don't like interacting on the facebook page. Very short article, but very interesting.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/weapo...c-plated-steel-case-55gr-fmj-/151342978242318
http://www.weaponsworld.com/reviews/mfs-223-remington-55-grain-fmj
Magnuumpwr
Member
Personally I prefer the steel case ammo. I shoot it in 2) of my AR's, 1) dragunov, 2) AK's, 2) beretta 92FS's, and 2) 1911A1's. What I really like about the steel case ammo is the clean up after shooting, I simply roll a magnet over the area to clear the cases.
I shoot Wolf frequently.
For those that say the steel case is hard on extractors, I submit this for inquiry - why do I always have about 1 shell in 100 suffer from a torn rim? I understand that the steel used for cases is possibly softer than commonly used brass. That would make sense to me given the torn rims. Is this the case? Is this what is meant by being hard on extractors?
Seems to me that if the extractor is tearing the rims, then they (the steel rims) certainly cannot be harder than the brass. Am I approaching this incorrectly?
Also, I shoot Monarch & Silver Bear frequently. I have found this to be more reliable and more accurate in my rifle than any other 55-grain load - brass or steel. Go figure.
For those that say the steel case is hard on extractors, I submit this for inquiry - why do I always have about 1 shell in 100 suffer from a torn rim? I understand that the steel used for cases is possibly softer than commonly used brass. That would make sense to me given the torn rims. Is this the case? Is this what is meant by being hard on extractors?
Seems to me that if the extractor is tearing the rims, then they (the steel rims) certainly cannot be harder than the brass. Am I approaching this incorrectly?
Also, I shoot Monarch & Silver Bear frequently. I have found this to be more reliable and more accurate in my rifle than any other 55-grain load - brass or steel. Go figure.
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