MMA1991
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Too much when firing a .454 round ball with a felt wad?
Steel Frame 1851 Navy w/ 30 gr of Triple 7 FFFG
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J-Bar
Member
Have you tried it yet? I would be surprised if you could get that much powder in the chamber with a wad, and not over compress 777...
I've never felt the need to make my Navies into a magnum.
I've never felt the need to make my Navies into a magnum.
I can easily get 35 grns of 3F Olde E, which doesn't compress as much as T7, with a bullet i cast that's .460" long. 30 grns will certainly work.
From my Pietta Remington 1858 30 grns of 3F Olde E or T7 is the sweet spot for my .400" and .460" long bullets. I compress heavily as consistency is a key for accuracy. And it could very well be that lighter compression would yield better results, but I'm not sure how one can use moderate pressure and be consistent.
I'm not sure how it would be that 30 grns of powder would create anything near a magnum though... It would only give it ~325 ft/lbs, hardly a magnum.
From my Pietta Remington 1858 30 grns of 3F Olde E or T7 is the sweet spot for my .400" and .460" long bullets. I compress heavily as consistency is a key for accuracy. And it could very well be that lighter compression would yield better results, but I'm not sure how one can use moderate pressure and be consistent.
I'm not sure how it would be that 30 grns of powder would create anything near a magnum though... It would only give it ~325 ft/lbs, hardly a magnum.
J-Bar
Member
...it was simply a way of saying that I feel no need to push for maximum loads in any firearm...
I once threw two 18 grain charges into the same chamber by mistake, and could not seat the ball deeply enough to clear the barrel. I think 30 grains of powder plus a wad spacer is going to take more compression in an 1851 open top than recommended for 777. Try it and see what happens. Good luck.
I once threw two 18 grain charges into the same chamber by mistake, and could not seat the ball deeply enough to clear the barrel. I think 30 grains of powder plus a wad spacer is going to take more compression in an 1851 open top than recommended for 777. Try it and see what happens. Good luck.
MMA1991
Member
I loaded and fired 6 cylinders worth from my 1851 Pietta Navy and with 30 grains of powder, wad and ball there was still enough room/gap to cover the cylinder chambers with Crisco. Not even close to maxing out the available space.
My 12 year old shot it w/o a problem and was dropping steel plates at 25 feet.
Just curious to get other forum members take on this load considering T7 is supposedly 15% more potent than BP and other BP substitutes.
My 12 year old shot it w/o a problem and was dropping steel plates at 25 feet.
Just curious to get other forum members take on this load considering T7 is supposedly 15% more potent than BP and other BP substitutes.
"...than recommended for 777."
This is one thing I've tried multiple times to get Hodgdon's to clarify. They state the very light compression is necessary when loading cartridges, but then claim to compress "firmly" in other BP firearms. What is firmly? It's certainly more than light otherwise they'd have made the same statement. They are quite vague other than it's not lightly compressed. I'm not really certain what it is they recommend...
I don't have any Colt styled pistols yet, but my Pietta Remington '58 certainly can hold more than 35 grns. But then all of our powder measures throw slightly different volumes. Triple 7 compresses much more than Olde Eynsford BP. In my ROA I know I can get 45 grns in there with a ball, but when I tried that with Olde E I had to shave the nose of the ball.
This is one thing I've tried multiple times to get Hodgdon's to clarify. They state the very light compression is necessary when loading cartridges, but then claim to compress "firmly" in other BP firearms. What is firmly? It's certainly more than light otherwise they'd have made the same statement. They are quite vague other than it's not lightly compressed. I'm not really certain what it is they recommend...
I don't have any Colt styled pistols yet, but my Pietta Remington '58 certainly can hold more than 35 grns. But then all of our powder measures throw slightly different volumes. Triple 7 compresses much more than Olde Eynsford BP. In my ROA I know I can get 45 grns in there with a ball, but when I tried that with Olde E I had to shave the nose of the ball.
My pistols are meant for hunting, and so I shoot nothing but loads with intent. 30 grns ought to be just enough, though I'd use my ROA and it's 35 grn charge instead. 18 grns wouldn't cut it for me. Some of us do more than punch paper and so a light charge wouldn't be worthwhile.
I've not read of any issues with originals failing, outside of the Walkers, because they weren't able to handle max loads. Reproductions are said to be built with even better steel, but even if it were no different there still shouldn't be any issues.
Read Colt's original loading instructions. There's a fellow (Strawhat?) who has a nice presentation box with a copy of Colt's instructions, but I cannot seem to be able to find it and my Googlefu just isn't very good and leaves me feeling as though I'm in one of those old Bing commercials.
I've not read of any issues with originals failing, outside of the Walkers, because they weren't able to handle max loads. Reproductions are said to be built with even better steel, but even if it were no different there still shouldn't be any issues.
Read Colt's original loading instructions. There's a fellow (Strawhat?) who has a nice presentation box with a copy of Colt's instructions, but I cannot seem to be able to find it and my Googlefu just isn't very good and leaves me feeling as though I'm in one of those old Bing commercials.
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DD4lifeusmc
Member
30 gr
No it's not.
The warning to reduce is not about excess pressure.
It's about equal performace. as compared tothe real black
But max loads of anything do not necessarily translate into better accuracy
or even greater impact energy.
No it's not.
The warning to reduce is not about excess pressure.
It's about equal performace. as compared tothe real black
But max loads of anything do not necessarily translate into better accuracy
or even greater impact energy.
The last black powder revolver I purchased actually came with loading instructions/data that is not super conservative. It said 1860's 35g, dragoons, 50gr. I couldn't believe they actually printed the real max loads. There is no mention of 777, only Pyrodex which is downloaded from real FFF
30 grains/vol of fffg 777 is approximately equivalent (not 'supposedly' equivalent) to 35 grains/vol of fffg black powder. The approximation is due to the compression variable.
Heavily compressing 777 will produce inconsistent burning results, which will affect pressure, thus velocity and accuracy. This can be confirmed with a chronograph.
Hodgdon's advice of 'firmly' compressing it in bp chambers (as opposed to brass cartridges) is to ensure there are no air gaps, which can result in detonation. Just exactly how much force results in 'firmly', and how to do that consistently, is something each shooter will need to work out for him or her self. Kind of like how we have to work out for ourselves just what the best load is for each of our black powder firearms.
I have personally never had good results loading to maximum capability in any bp revolver. In every one of my revolvers the most accurate load is less than the maximum load. I would doubt that 35 grains/vol of fffg black powder, or the equivalent in 777, would produce acceptable accuracy in a .44 cal 1851 Navy.
Heavily compressing 777 will produce inconsistent burning results, which will affect pressure, thus velocity and accuracy. This can be confirmed with a chronograph.
Hodgdon's advice of 'firmly' compressing it in bp chambers (as opposed to brass cartridges) is to ensure there are no air gaps, which can result in detonation. Just exactly how much force results in 'firmly', and how to do that consistently, is something each shooter will need to work out for him or her self. Kind of like how we have to work out for ourselves just what the best load is for each of our black powder firearms.
I have personally never had good results loading to maximum capability in any bp revolver. In every one of my revolvers the most accurate load is less than the maximum load. I would doubt that 35 grains/vol of fffg black powder, or the equivalent in 777, would produce acceptable accuracy in a .44 cal 1851 Navy.
J-Bar
Member
When I read the original post, I saw "1851 Navy..". I did not note the ".454 ball."
When I see "1851 Navy" I think of the true 1851 Navy, the .36 caliber one, which is what I was referring to in my post, and which I own.
So, yes, certainly, a .44/.45 caliber chamber will hold more than 30 grains of powder. But 30 grains is about brim full in a .36, which is what I based my comment on.
I apologize for the confusion...I am yet another victim of Pietta's historically incorrect "1851 .44" fantasy revolvers.
But I am still not going to compress 777 (which I rarely use) very much.
When I see "1851 Navy" I think of the true 1851 Navy, the .36 caliber one, which is what I was referring to in my post, and which I own.
So, yes, certainly, a .44/.45 caliber chamber will hold more than 30 grains of powder. But 30 grains is about brim full in a .36, which is what I based my comment on.
I apologize for the confusion...I am yet another victim of Pietta's historically incorrect "1851 .44" fantasy revolvers.
But I am still not going to compress 777 (which I rarely use) very much.
Crawdad1
Member
Yea, should be 1851 Colt in Army caliber. Pure fiction but a lot of people like them. 
I had a neighbor who's kids tossed a few springs from their trampoline over my fence. I've saved a couple and wondered if they'd make a nice means to evenly compress T7 lighter and be consistent as the spring ought to break around the same pressure.
I can get 45 grns of 3F T7 in my ROA as a very near max load, but it's peak accuracy is with 35 grns. I've only used it in increments of 5 grns using an adjustable measure meant for a rifle so even the 5 grn mark is a guessing game (incremented in 10 grns).
My Pietta Remington will hold a little more than 35 grns but it's sweet spot is with 30 grns.
Many people state their repros are the most accurate (.44 cal) with something like 15-22 grns with filler. It may very well be with mine too, but those kinds of loads wouldn't be useful to me, though still fun. But the smoke and thunder are a big part of my fun too.
I can get 45 grns of 3F T7 in my ROA as a very near max load, but it's peak accuracy is with 35 grns. I've only used it in increments of 5 grns using an adjustable measure meant for a rifle so even the 5 grn mark is a guessing game (incremented in 10 grns).
My Pietta Remington will hold a little more than 35 grns but it's sweet spot is with 30 grns.
Many people state their repros are the most accurate (.44 cal) with something like 15-22 grns with filler. It may very well be with mine too, but those kinds of loads wouldn't be useful to me, though still fun. But the smoke and thunder are a big part of my fun too.
perldog007
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I'm thinking the non historic but appearing in "Andersonville" Pietta Brassie 1851 .44 snubnose for a paper popper, plinker... I do like to have guns just to take to the range if I'm having a bunch of guns.
Pretty much got away from shooting after nearly losing a leg, being told I wouldn't work on my feet again, blah blah. Now I can walk a couple of miles so I'm back. Sort of, I'm liking the black powder revolvers and want to own more than I'll use. I can stand a range queen in case.
I actually bought my Pietta steel frame 1860 for 30 gr pyrodex .454 ball and 25 gr pyrodex 200 gr Lee conical. A general goofing off revolver when you don't really need a gun but might want one in the woods type of gun.
I would not be too worried about triple se7en at 30 gr but only because I've seen enough folks post results to believe that it's been done successfully.
Most of the time I'm like Rod, mine are tools and get carried more than shot. I do want light loads for light work but I have been acquiring them after research on the ballistics. It's more engaging and challenging than a model 10, looks better to me, and the cool factor seals it.
I'll carry my 1860 for any sort of goofing off I would have taken a .38 to handle as a younger man. I won't be wearing it to work the next day so I can make that call.
Get the cheap brassie snubbie 1851 .44 and I can turn mine into a 'pocket' .44 steel frame because Pietta frames are apparently tooled alike.
Pretty much got away from shooting after nearly losing a leg, being told I wouldn't work on my feet again, blah blah. Now I can walk a couple of miles so I'm back. Sort of, I'm liking the black powder revolvers and want to own more than I'll use. I can stand a range queen in case.
I actually bought my Pietta steel frame 1860 for 30 gr pyrodex .454 ball and 25 gr pyrodex 200 gr Lee conical. A general goofing off revolver when you don't really need a gun but might want one in the woods type of gun.
I would not be too worried about triple se7en at 30 gr but only because I've seen enough folks post results to believe that it's been done successfully.
Most of the time I'm like Rod, mine are tools and get carried more than shot. I do want light loads for light work but I have been acquiring them after research on the ballistics. It's more engaging and challenging than a model 10, looks better to me, and the cool factor seals it.
I'll carry my 1860 for any sort of goofing off I would have taken a .38 to handle as a younger man. I won't be wearing it to work the next day so I can make that call.
Get the cheap brassie snubbie 1851 .44 and I can turn mine into a 'pocket' .44 steel frame because Pietta frames are apparently tooled alike.
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