Steel Meets Polymer - What Happens When The Plastic Wears Out ?
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Zaydok Allen
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Mine jams all the time. I think I need a new magazine tube spring.
I'm no expert on polymers but think it worth noting that all polymers are not the same, just as all steels are not the same. The Ruger polymer used in the P-series could use polymer rails because, a) they were very beefy construction and b) were made of a form of Dow Isoplast that has also been used to make heavy truck bumpers and even gear wheels in heavy machinery. There are many variations and Ruger no doubt had its own but it is extremely tough stuff. Ruger's P95 and 97 polymer was tough and thick and quite rigid and also self-lubricating. The P95, in particular, was a quite under-rated pistol, IMO. I'm sure that many other polymers used in firearm manufacturing are equally durable, just as I'm sure some are not.
Hondo 60
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Huh? Isn't the steel slide in contact with the polymer body?
Or steel inserts for the slide to ride on?
If it's on steel slides, what about the holes where the steel is connected to the polymer frame?
Won't they eventually elongate due to the force of the slide?
Other than possible incidental contact, the answer is no. The steel slide contacts steel rails that are molded into the polymer frame.
The steel rails are molded right into the polymer frame. It's possible that the rails could loosen from the frame, but that seems to be a very rare occurrence. I've not heard of an incident like that with Glocks, or any other similarly constructed pistol for that matter. I have heard of the steel rails breaking but that's not a common occurrence either.
As far as metal on polymer contact in the Glock, the general rule is metal on metal, polymer on polymer for contact between moving parts. There are some places where plastic parts (notably the trigger) pivot on steel pins or steel pins go through the polymer frame, but if those are failure points they're not common ones. The few things that break in Glocks most often are metal, not polymer.
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FNH actually builds the fns pistols with replaceable steel rails on the polymer frame. I think that's a little unnecessary, but I guess they figure that the stainless slide on the rails will wear them out faster than the frame by a good stretch.
Will my polymer guns be cracked and brittle dust in 100 years? Maybe, but so will I. Time will tell, but th ey seem durable enough for a lifetime of hard shooting.
Will my polymer guns be cracked and brittle dust in 100 years? Maybe, but so will I. Time will tell, but th ey seem durable enough for a lifetime of hard shooting.
Manufacturers can make all of the predictions they like concerning the lifespan of "polymer" but since it hasn't been used in firearms for that all many years no one can say for certain. The next generation will find out. I will never understand why someone would choose thin stamped steel "rails" molded into a piece of plastic over a full solid steel frame < edit >
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Maybe because they have to carry them around all day with spare mags along with the rest of their duty gear...for years. <edit>
SC
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captain awesome
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Send me one and i will test it for you. A few years on top of my roof in mesa az should settle that question. I often think about doing torture tests on various highly reguarded products that are supposed to be ultra durable. I just dont want to spend the dough. Most of them are fairly expensive. Especially in the fire arms realm.
These threads always amuse me.
I remember when everyone was worried that disposable plastic was going to last forever and clog up all the landfills because it didn't degrade. Now people are worried that high-value items made of good quality polymers won't last.
It's also funny to see comments about how nobody knows about plastics because they're so new and all the speculation about how these new-fangled polymers might degrade to uselessness in a few decades. The most commonly used polymer in firearms is nylon. It was invented 80 years ago...
I remember when everyone was worried that disposable plastic was going to last forever and clog up all the landfills because it didn't degrade. Now people are worried that high-value items made of good quality polymers won't last.
It's also funny to see comments about how nobody knows about plastics because they're so new and all the speculation about how these new-fangled polymers might degrade to uselessness in a few decades. The most commonly used polymer in firearms is nylon. It was invented 80 years ago...
It's going to come as a surprise, I know, but the plastics makers know about the things that cause plastics to degrade and, for the most part have figured out ways to reduce the degradation to acceptable levels. One firearm manufacturer tested their frame material and determined that if you leave your firearm in the sun for 100 years the degradation will still not be sufficient to affect function.
justin22885
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personally, im not a fan of plastic handguns.. theyre marketed as being "lightweight" and "corrosion resistant".. but these are basically just buzz words to convince you that youre getting a better product by accepting plastic.. fact is theyre making them and selling them to you because these pistols can be made for pennies on the dollar of a real gun.. if they can convince you that youre getting something out of it they sell that much more.. ill stick with steel
however.. i will stick with polymer handguns before id accept one with an aluminum frame.. at least the polymer handguns (or at least most of them) have steel on steel contact surfaces as the plastic frame merely acts as little more than a grip and trigger guard
so, im just not going to fall into this belief that a cheaply made product injection moulded out of inferior materials is in MY benefit because i save a few ounces.. big whoop and typically what comes with the weight saved is more muzzle flip, slower follow up shots, more felt recoil and an obsession towards low "bore axis" to polish those turds.. y'all can keep your plastics
unfortunately, steel pistols are becoming rarer and rarer as, like television network execs in the last 10 years have realized, you can mass produce the same tired old crap for almost no budget and people will still buy it if you say its better
however.. i will stick with polymer handguns before id accept one with an aluminum frame.. at least the polymer handguns (or at least most of them) have steel on steel contact surfaces as the plastic frame merely acts as little more than a grip and trigger guard
so, im just not going to fall into this belief that a cheaply made product injection moulded out of inferior materials is in MY benefit because i save a few ounces.. big whoop and typically what comes with the weight saved is more muzzle flip, slower follow up shots, more felt recoil and an obsession towards low "bore axis" to polish those turds.. y'all can keep your plastics
unfortunately, steel pistols are becoming rarer and rarer as, like television network execs in the last 10 years have realized, you can mass produce the same tired old crap for almost no budget and people will still buy it if you say its better
Zaydok Allen
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I understand your point in your post, but "lightweight" and "corrosion resistant" are qualities that people actively search for when it comes to firearms meant to fill a carry role. I wouldn't necessarily call tem buzzwords.
When I think buzzword, I think "space age", "futuristic", and "tactical".
It's all marketing of course.... just saying
sigarms228
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My self I don't worry about it at all. I have steel frame, aluminum frame, and poly frame and dig them all. However for CCW I go with poly frame.
Most likely it would take tens of thousands of dollars of ammo through any one of my pistols before the frame could even be a problem anyway. Other than my CZ they all have lifetime warranties. Funny that my CZ is my only steel frame 9MM and yet it has only a 5 year warranty while ALL my poly and aluminum frame pistols have lifetime warranty.
One characteristic of my poly frame pistols that I really appreciate is that they sure seem to be a lot less worrisome about keeping them running well with minimum lubrication and maintenance compared to my metal frame pistols.
Then there is the SIG P320. Poly frame, yes. If there is ever a problem with the frame then get a new frame for around $40.
Most likely it would take tens of thousands of dollars of ammo through any one of my pistols before the frame could even be a problem anyway. Other than my CZ they all have lifetime warranties. Funny that my CZ is my only steel frame 9MM and yet it has only a 5 year warranty while ALL my poly and aluminum frame pistols have lifetime warranty.
One characteristic of my poly frame pistols that I really appreciate is that they sure seem to be a lot less worrisome about keeping them running well with minimum lubrication and maintenance compared to my metal frame pistols.
Then there is the SIG P320. Poly frame, yes. If there is ever a problem with the frame then get a new frame for around $40.
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justin22885
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my point is they push out those phrases and rely so heavily on them to sell pistols.. i personally have no problems carrying a heavier handgun and unless you COMPLETELY neglect your pistol youre not going to have corrosion issues..
i think its just marketed as something you just HAVE to have when you really dont as an excuse to push cheaper products.. if youre using it as a compact dedicated conceal carry handgun, fine, go for it.. but for an open carry, duty, military, or range style pistol i wont waste the money on a lesser product
@ Gunmaster post #25: Same here. most Glock bashers don't know what they are talking about. If one doesn't like them that's fine, their choice. They are accurate, super reliable, easy to assemble and disassemble even blind folded. Parts galore, although except for sights mine are usually stock. Maybe a different trigger bar, maybe a barrel. LEOs get money for new ones all the time, so they get turned in for new all the time. As far as the plastic wearing out, you will have to ask your heirs in the great beyond.
That said, there are lots of nice guns out there, and I own them as well. If you don't like Glocks for what ever reason, no problem. But to try to say they are not effective is silly. And for those of you that are in the "don't think they even make a good club" let me slap you with one and you will change your mind there pronto as well. Many hammers have plastic handles too!
Just sayin
Russellc
That said, there are lots of nice guns out there, and I own them as well. If you don't like Glocks for what ever reason, no problem. But to try to say they are not effective is silly. And for those of you that are in the "don't think they even make a good club" let me slap you with one and you will change your mind there pronto as well. Many hammers have plastic handles too!
Just sayin
Russellc
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justin22885
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ask your heirs in the great beyond?.. polymer pistols have BARELY been around 30 years, theres no proof or evidence theyll last as long as steel while we have examples of steel weapons well over 100 years old that still function flawlessly.. when polymer pistols make it to 100-150 years old and still function, then we can make the claim they last as long
Ethan Sackett
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Most agencies trade sidearms every 10 years, mainly because the night sights are starting to fade and go dim. My last duty gun was a glock mod 22. I carried it for 10 years, because I was retiring I was not issued a new weapon and they presented it to me at my retirement party. The night sights are still working but are not as bright as they were when it was new. It still shoots as good as it did the day they issued it to me. I do not know how many rounds I have shot out of it, well over 10K as I have a range in my back yard and shoot every week. It will be placed in a display along with 2 other pistols I have carried a S&W Mod-19-3 and S&W Mod 66 no dash.
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4thPointOfContact
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Years of longevity is immaterial. 1,000 rounds shot over 100 years in nothing compared to 10,000 rounds shot in 10 years. By the time a firearm has discharged that many rounds the cost any replacement parts is far, Far outweighed by the cost of ammunition and other consumables.
There's a Glock 17 out there with over 300,000 (yes, Three Hundred Thousand) rounds through it. Where's the steel framed pistol to compare to that?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=360611
justin22885
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multiple old military 1911s have confirmed round counts beyond 500,000.. that being said its not the steel components such as the rails that will prevent plastic pistols from lasting as long but the chemical properties of nylon 6, as well as certain biological conditions that lead to the degredation of the polymers over time.. not to mention its low melting point which can cause the plastics to warp with enough heat that can be produced by a large number of household items
considering simply accidently leaving your pistol on your household radiator will melt it, fires will destroy it, a double-charge round going off will total the frame.. even if you avoid all these things, you still cant avoid the aging process and properties present in all plastics, including the nylon 6 polymers most (including glock) polymer pistols are made from so for this reason i doubt you'll be passing one on too too many heirs
Zaydok Allen
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Accidentally leaving your gun on a radiator......:come on. Fires and double charged loads will damage and destroy a lot of guns including magnum caliber revolvers. So using these ideas as justification for your dislike of polymer guns rings hollow. There's nothing wrong with disliking them purely based on your opinion. That's cool if you don't like them man, and I agree that in many regards and roles, all steel guns are superior choices. But you're really stretching on your remarks regarding their inferiority.
Also you are assuming everyone cares about leaving guns to their heirs. Well, not all of us do. My heirs won't care a bit. You know why? Because I have none.
Freud said sometime a cigar is just a cigar. There is no extra or implied meaning. Well, some times a gun is just a gun and a tool is just a tool. For many of us, polymer guns are just a tool and when a tool wears out I fix it if I can, or replace it when I can't. I sure don't worry if my heirs will cherish it.
W.E.G.
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I have guns made out of pretty much every material that a gun was ever made of.
So, I think I've got my bases covered.
So, I think I've got my bases covered.
justin22885
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well, then blame the people who said their heirs will have the same glocks they have.. i was merely pointing out the fact that plastic generally ages unfavorably compared to other materials like steel and therefor will probably never last as long over a given time frame
X-Rap
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I'd like to see some proof to the claim that the polymers in a Glock or other gun for that matter will degrade in any way and at what rate it occurs. Just saying it happens is BS unless you can back it up.
As far as old 1911's running 500,000 rds, if it happened they have more armorers hours and parts than you could buy multiple replacements with IMO. If the round count was documented than so should the parts and labor.
Saying a glock will melt on a radiator is akin to saying a 1911 will rust if you leave it on wet carpet under a car seat.
As far as old 1911's running 500,000 rds, if it happened they have more armorers hours and parts than you could buy multiple replacements with IMO. If the round count was documented than so should the parts and labor.
Saying a glock will melt on a radiator is akin to saying a 1911 will rust if you leave it on wet carpet under a car seat.
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