steel, SA 9mm's ?

[abrahamsmith]

Though I risk producing another (boring) "help me pick a gun" thread, I have to start my contribution to this board somewhere...

So, I'm currently seeking a new pistol, and it's becoming clear that the particular class of pistol I am looking for lacks variety.

I'd like a steel-framed 9mm with a single-action mechanism. SA/DA is acceptable as long as the trigger is reasonably crisp and the pistol has a safety (e.g. CZ). Furthermore, I'd like the pistol to be relatively carryable IWB. I'd also like to not spend a fortune (sorry, P7)

I see my options as:
* FN/Browning HiPower, (incl the cheaper FEG's FM's, etc)
* CZ compact (or EAA compact)
* 1911 Commander 9mm (Colt made some in the 70's)

Each of these has its flaws. The lack of definite reset on the HiPower really bugs me, though I could probably train beyond that. The CZ compact apparantly has somewhat spotty feed reliability, and this is unacceptable in a carry gun. The 1911 would be hard to find, expensive (~$1000), and finding magazine would be tough.

Is this too much to ask? What models am I missing?

 

[MoNsTeR]

There are current production 9mm 1911's available from Springfield and Dan Wesson (<$700 ea.) and STI (~$1k). STI also makes a couple of compact models with a proprietary linkless barrel that are also in the $700 range, though I've never seen one in person.

Might also look at older Star guns, the Firestar and Model B etc.

 

[firestar]

abrahamsmith,
I am in the same boat right now except that I don't care about being able to carry it. I want accuracy above all else. My choices are the same as yours. I have been told that the CZ-85 has a better SA trigger than the CZ-75 though.

Right now, I am looking into a cheaper Hi Power. I want to be able to add a few things without breaking the bank, grips, adjustable sights, trigger job etc.

The lack of definite reset on the HiPower really bugs me, though I could probably train beyond that.

What do you mean by this?

 

[chaim]

If a DA/SA is acceptable so long as it has a safety that allows condition one carry than you can also look at Taurus guns. The PT 92/99 is a bit big if you want to carry (it is a clone of the Beretta 92) but the PT 911 is a decent size and if you are willing to gamble with the polymer the PT111 is a great CCW size. The Taurus metal framed guns seem to universally have great reputations with those who own them- it is actually pretty hard to find a dissatisfied owner. The original polymer pistols however are pretty much the exact opposite (sheared pins, and cracked frames usually at well under 1K rounds), however many say the problems may have been fixed (though it is hard to tell since so many who actually do read and contribute to firearms forums have long since been scared off so there aren't that many people on the net who can give first hand reports on newer versions). Anyway, the PT 911 (aluminum frame) would probably fit your criteria just fine. The safety has a decocker, and it can be used as a safety while decocked OR as a safety while the gun is "cocked and locked"- it is probably the most versatile safety out there giving the benefits of BOTH "cocked and locked" carry AND a decocker.

Other options, as others (incl. you) stated:
-the Hi Powers (from FNs for a good deal of cash, to good but inexpensive FMs to good, inexpensive but somewhat more "raw" FEGs).
-CZ: My full sized CZ 75B is extremely reliable and my best friend has been quite pleased with his CZ 85 Combat. I haven't heard of wide spread problems with the compact models. Also, many people find the full sized CZs concealable (and they aren't any bigger than the 1911 or much bigger than a HP if you think you can carry them) so if you are concerned about the compact you can always get a CZ 75B with the "traditional" CZ configuration or a CZ 75SA for a real SA trigger/safety.
-in 1911s SA, STI, and I think Dan Wesson and Kimber also make them in 9mm.

 

[dude]

P7

 

[TreeSquid]

Spotty feed reliability? Ask all the 100% satisfied CZ PCR Compact owners out there how spotty their feed reliability is. I've seen hardly any complaints about feeding problems with any cz-75, -especially- the compacts. I heartily endorse the CZ 75 PCR Compact, which I own, over 2000 rounds through it without a hitch, and I only clean it every 400-500 rounds. If that's spotty, so be it, but if I were you I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the CZs. Also, try firing one yourself! They're irresistable little buggers.

 

[firestar]

Arn't the Taurus PT-92s alloy, like the Beretta?

Dude, he said NO P7s. Didn't you read his post?

 

[Harold Mayo]

Sig P239 if you can stand a DA first shot. Concealable, 8+1 rounds of 9mm...it has replaced my hi-power AND my 1911 for carry for the immediate future as I test it out some. And it only cost me (before tax) $440 NIB...it's not steel-framed, though.

 

[dude]

no, I did not read the post.............the thread question had such a simple logical answer I felt there was no need!

 

[tex_n_cal]

Colt made a number of Government model 9mm's, too, and they aren't terribly expensive - even in the PRK I have seen them in the $800 range. There's a couple on gunbroker.com right now.

You'll probably find .38 Supers more commonly in the 1911, and it's only a barrel and probably a mag change to run 9mm's.

Of course I JUST happen to be building a Commander that can switch from .45 to 9mm by swapping top ends and magazines. At least, that's the theory, anyway.

.45 and 9mm Colt Commanders share the same ejector, so the top ends will swap right on a given frame. That's not true of fullsize models, though. The frame ramp is admittedly an unknown issue, so my project may not work.

 

[Johnny Guest]

SA lockwork, all steel - - -

It takes a major effort for me to look past the superb Browning P35 High Power. The Argentine FM clone--full size, not the compact, about which I know zip-- has a very good reputation, too.

If I MUST go beyond the HP - - -
I'll have to second MoNsTeR's suggestion to look at the Star pistols. I have seen them at very reasonable prices at, I believe, Southern Ohio Guns, and possibly CDNN. My personal experience is very limited, but they are well made and quite reliable, from what I've heard from some dedicated users.

I hope Mr. Stephen Camp will weigh in on this topic-- He's my primary source of info about Stars. (And most other nine mini-meters.)

Best,
Johnny

 

[WonderNine]

The lack of definite reset on the HiPower really bugs me, though I could probably train beyond that.

I don't understand what you're saying. Could you please explain this statement?

I would go with the Browning Hi-Power. I have never shot a CZ-75 single action, but from what I understand and have read and seen, I believe they are almost as good as a Hi-Power.

 

[dude]

P7


(it will save you $$$ in the long run)

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I've had pretty decent luck with Star pistols overall and they can be had for very reasonable prices these days. The downside is three-fold, in my opinion:

1. Star, as we knew it, is no longer supplying parts for these pistols nor producing them. It's possible that they are in Europe, but no one's importing them here. I think Star and another Spanish gunmaker have merged, but the old Star-marked guns are no longer being made. Spare parts can be found, but it's difficult. I believe one can still buy new, spare magazines for some Star pistols via www.cdnninvestments.com.

2. It's my opinion that these are pretty nice pistols, but they are not the vehicles (pre-Firestar models) for either shooting lots of +P ammunition, nor handloading to the upper safe limits of the 9x19 ballistic envelope or .45 ACP or 9mm Largo or .38 Super...
The older pistols have somewhat "soft" steel compared to most American-made handguns and even the Browning Hi Powers, which were said to be softer than 1911s in years past. (Current models are reportedly better in this regard.)

3. The older, single-action Star handguns retain the firing pin via vertical, steel pin that's hidden under the fixed, rear sight. The firing pin's got a notch in it and dry-firing allows the rear of the notch to smack the steel pin. This generally breaks the firing pin in fairly short order IF the pistol's dry-fired much at all, something most shooters do. Not hard to avoid though; just use a snapcap, either homemade or store bought.

Having said all that, I like the Star Model B quite a lot. Dimensionally, it's smaller than the 5" 1911 though "paper dimensions" just don't convey the difference in feel. To me, they just feel more "graceful." This is subjective, but others I've discussed this with usually feel the same way.

Accuracy is not going to match an STI or a tuned-1911 9mm, but it will generally be in the neighborhood of 3" or less at 25 yards in my experience from the Model B.

Older Model B pistols can be finicky about ammo other than ball. They can be throated, but then we're getting into money for the gunsmith that most don't like to spend when buying a Star 9mm. Perhaps an easier solution is to use standard pressure JHPs with rounded bullet ogives like Federal's 9BP, Nyclad 124 gr HP (if you can find it), or Remington's 115 gr JHP if considering this pistol for defensive use. The last Star Model B I bought was one of the last new ones available from the last military overrun, sometime in the '80s. It came throated and it's been much more pleasent in terms of the variety of ammunition it'll feed.

There are no aftermarket parts for these old guns that I'm aware of, but in the Model B, replacement recoil springs can be had by using Wolff's springs for the CZ75. Works fine.

Though an unfortunate name, Star's BM is a reduced-size version of the Model B, kind of like the Commander is to the Government Model. They have a FLGR and captive recoil spring so changing/replacing springs can be a problem. They seem to feed most JHPs pretty well and group well; I do find the Model B easier to get tighter groups with, however.

I'm not saying to buy or not to buy a Star. I will say that I continue to own and shoot a Model B and BM with no problems, but I don't use "hot" rounds in them much at all. With the exception of the Star PD .45 and the Model 31PK, I've not had good luck with alloy Star SA autos, but the following is based on my experiences with but ONE pistol, a STAR BKM, an early aluminum-framed version of the BM. In short, I shot it to pieces with no more than about 2500 rnds. Of course, I didn't have enough sense back then NOT to shoot primarily hot 9mm rounds through it. The ejector became very loose in it's dovetail in the frame and the feedramp became easily gouged and scraped. This did not help reliability. The aluminum slide rails wore quickly.
Were I buying a Star 9mm in one of the older single-action designs, I'd go steel. They do hold up pretty darned well with standard pressure rounds.

Hope this helps.

Best.

 

[PCRCCW]

Having shot alot of what you are asking about..Ill jump in with a couple of suggestions.

The Star guns are excellent. The only problem with them is if it happens to break. Depending on what gun you have, parts can be a very big problem...getting them. Other than that...my Firestar Plus is a very very missed gun. One of those infamous "OOPS!" after getting rid of it.

CZ Compacts, only the real Compact 75 B can be carried cocked and locked, the rest of them are decocker only. Their is no issue with feeding problems with the guns at all. Im the Admin on the CZForum and trust me...if their was a problem We would know of it and pass it on. Very good choice..CZUSA has parts for them...even though the odds are youll never need them.

The HP is another great choice...slimmer than the CZ by a hair...but no Compact model is offered except the Detective and its a conversion. Id love to have one of these.....someday

shoot well

 

[Tim Schlosser]

Browning Hi Power, Unless you've got the bucks for a Sig P210, nothing else comes close. Of course this is an opinion, but hey it's mine.

 

[abrahamsmith]

Thanks for all the great responses!

As to the hipower reset thing:

In most pistols, you pull (press) the trigger. BANG. The trigger is still all the way back. You let the trigger forward a bit. CLICK. That was the sound/feel of the trigger resetting; now it's ready to fire again. I find this particularly noticable on CZ's, and the Glock safe-action mechanism has a similar characteristic.

In the hipower, this click is either very subtle or nonexistent, which means you have to keep moving your finger all the way forward before taking the next shot.

(Note: to do this experiment dry-firing, you have to cycle the slide while keeping the trigger pressed)

Since I expect the definite click, not having it is disconcerting and makes me shoot both more slowly and less accurately.

Again, this is purely a training issue, but it's one I'd have to get around if I buy a hipower.

That being said, the hipower is currently my top choice. (Anyone have a used MkIII in southern Wisconsin under $500?)

Though, the new 1911 9mm's (STI, Springfield) are very intruiging -- if only I had a few more hundred dollars than I do!

 

[tex_n_cal]

Springfield did make some of their "Mil-Spec" models in .38 Super, although they don't list them on their website any more. Don't know if they ever offered the same model in 9mm. The Mil-Specs can usually be found for $500-$600. My .38 Super is a heck of a nice gun, and it functions with pretty mild loads, too.

The FEG Hi-power clones are pretty reasonable in price, about $300 or so depending on your location. They may need trigger jobs, but the price is right, otherwise.

 

[Safety First]

Ditto on the Sig p-239

It is highly concealable,weighs 25.2 oz in 9mm without magazine, it comes with 7/8 shout mags,has the Sig reliability and I paid $529.00 at local gun shop for mine..Darn things pretty accurate too. I have only run a few boxes thru mine but I am a happy camper. It fits well in a Wild Bills concealment Undercover IWB..Check it out it should move close to the top of the list,depending on your priorities

 

[Dobe]

I just saw a BHP NIB MK III for 550. Is that a good price? I haven't been following BHP's lately....Made in Belgium asembled in Portugal. The trigger was the usual...Not GOOD. There was an FN next to it for about $ 35. less.

 

[sanchezero]

Just got the new www.CDNNinvestments.com catalog. It lists the FM Hipower and the compact 'detective' model at $270 with a 17rnd mag.



But you really should get the P7.

 

[RON in PA]

One more vote for the Hi-Power.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, again. I commented on the Star pistols and like them quite a bit, but if I could only own one single-action, steel 9mm pistol, it would be a Browning Hi Power.

Best.

 

[Wildalaska]

hI pOWER

 

[dude]

Has anybody mentioned P7??