Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Polymer Frame

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dispatch55126

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This isn't a "Which one is better" thread but a thread regarding cyclic service life.

I know steel basically has an indefinite life cycle unless there is a flaw in the casting.

I keep hearing about how aluminum only has an "X" round service life due to fatigue, but is this really a factor for all calibers?

What about polymer, given the environment which it lives (heating, cooling, flexing, cleaners, oils, ect), is there an expected service life or is it considered indefinite?
 
You just asked a bunch of questions as complicated as "what is the meaning of life?" -not even taking into account the difference in application of every firearm or under what environmental conditions each separate firearm will be kept & used in.

Too many variables to even try to answer.

You may as well be asking "what is the best gun?"
 
No precision crafted mechanical device has an indefinite life irrespective of whether it's made of Steel, Alloy, Polymer, Titanium, Ceramic or Unobtanium.

Wear, erosion, abuse, friction, lubrication, hot loads, cool loads, corrosive ammunition, rust, tarnish, stress, heat, cold.....Just a few of the potential factors on overall service life.

Also any metal in use "steel", "aluminium" etc is not , it's an alloy and if manufactured and QA'd correctly is irrelevant other than, weight, look or perception.

As an example, most polymer/plastic/"Tupperware" frames are more precisely/exactingly engineered from a materials science basis than the equivalent in steel as the synthetic materials are capable of closer "tuning" to requirements.

Like many folks who like firearms I like metal, I love the CZ range and swore I would never touch "Tupperware". I then got to handle the RAMI polymer and bought.....:cool:

Look to the manufacturer, their quality assurance, the real world results of the overall weapon platform.
 
Being that polymer is "new", I was curious about the long term capabilities. Wood and steel pistols and rifles from the 1800's can still be shot today without issue (using the proper load).

I would never give a steel framed anything a second thought. An old aluminum frame I would scutinize more to endure there were no apparent cracks.

Do you think that polymer framed pistols will still be functioning after 100 years or is this another example of the cheaper, lighter albeit stronger and disposable market mentality?
 
I think one of the major reasons why polymer frame pistols have become popular is that they are much easier to mass produce than those made from other materials.

Look at the costs associated with plastic injection molding a frame versus investment casting. Polymer frames are much easier to mass produce and the capital investment associated with tooling is easily recaptured.

I would be interested in seeing if any memebers who own injection molding houses could comment on an estimated cost for molded Glock or XD frames.

With regards to the fatigue life and strength of polymer vs. metal, it is a complicated affair to compare one to another and one must consider specific manufacturing conditions.
 
I.D.K. I guess they all have their advantages. Steel frames offer a nice balance, N.T.M. they are tops A.F.A. durability. Polymer frames are obviously the lightest of the three (I.E. nice for a C.C.W. etc), and someone might tell you that since they are more flexible, polymer is actually less prone to cracking than alloy even. I however will point directly at that person and L.O.L. in their face, because my personal favorite would be alloy/aluminum. Although it wins no categories per se (I.E. steel is more durable and polymer is lighter), alloy frames still offer some weight savings over steel yet still feel "substantial" in the hand I.E. feels like a "real gun" (L.O.L. at bias)!

One other thing I'll say about polymer- since the actual walls of the grip/frame (not O.A. width per se) have to be somewhat thick, I prefer it when they go ahead and still use steel mags to save a little bit there on the "wall thickness". T.B.S. I am down to one polymer pistol and it is a GLOCK (I.E. plastic frame and plastic mag) and there is not much I'd change about it.




I keep hearing about how aluminum only has an "X" round service life due to fatigue, but is this really a factor for all calibers?
Click to expand...

Well, if forced to choose on this one (and as pointed out nothing lasts indefinititely), I'd probably agree that T.A.C.E. it is 3rd in that respect, F.T.M.P. Because that's not a factor for me at all, considering a bigger variable in that respect is probably overall quality in general (I.E. I'd rather have a high quality alloy/aluminum than a budget example of polymer and vice versa)! There are different grades of alloy as well as polymer!

J.M.O. and as always, Y.M.M.V.


T.T.Y.L.!
 
.D.K. I guess they all have their advantages. Steel frames offer a nice balance, N.T.M. they are tops A.F.A. durability. Polymer frames are obviously the lightest of the three (I.E. nice for a C.C.W. etc), and someone might tell you that since they are more flexible, polymer is actually less prone to cracking than alloy even. I however will point directly at that person and L.O.L. in their face, because my personal favorite would be alloy/aluminum. Although it wins no categories per se (I.E. steel is more durable and polymer is lighter), alloy frames still offer some weight savings over steel yet still feel "substantial" in the hand I.E. feels like a "real gun" (L.O.L. at bias)!

One other thing I'll say about polymer- since the actual walls of the grip/frame (not O.A. width per se) have to be somewhat thick, I prefer it when they go ahead and still use steel mags to save a little bit there on the "wall thickness". T.B.S. I am down to one polymer pistol and it is a GLOCK (I.E. plastic frame and plastic mag) and there is not much I'd change about it.




Quote:
I keep hearing about how aluminum only has an "X" round service life due to fatigue, but is this really a factor for all calibers?
Well, if forced to choose on this one (and as pointed out nothing lasts indefinititely), I'd probably agree that T.A.C.E. it is 3rd in that respect, F.T.M.P. Because that's not a factor for me at all, considering a bigger variable in that respect is probably overall quality in general (I.E. I'd rather have a high quality alloy/aluminum than a budget example of polymer and vice versa)! There are different grades of alloy as well as polymer!

J.M.O. and as always, Y.M.M.V.


T.T.Y.L.!
Click to expand...

Wow. That was like talking with my 14 year old girl cousin on AIM, if she knew about guns.
There were so many acronyms in there, my head was spinning.

[teenage girl/valley girl voice]
And I was all, OMG, he has an SBS? Is it like NFA? Did he violate his C&R FFL? That's THTH!!!
[/teenage girl voice]
 
Nothing you'll ever outshoot, that's for sure.

I would be interested in seeing if any memebers who own injection molding houses could comment on an estimated cost for molded Glock or XD frames.
Click to expand...

It's been rumored the Glock costs ~$90 to make.
 
Wow. That was like talking with my 14 year old girl cousin on AIM, if she knew about guns.
There were so many acronyms in there, my head was spinning.

[teenage girl/valley girl voice]
And I was all, OMG, he has an SBS? Is it like NFA? Did he violate his C&R FFL? That's THTH!!!
[/teenage girl voice]
Click to expand...

Hey, sorry about that Ben. I appreciate you trying to read it anyways, but I do want to point out that I didn't really use any of the typical V.G. expressions as in your example (I.E. "like O.M.G., he was all like..."). But I'd be more offended if you had said I didn't know what I was talking about instead of making fun of how I write. That was funny though, thinking of a 14 year old girl talking about guns as if they were boys and clothes L.O.L.!





F.Y.I. (For Your Information):

I.D.K.- I don't know
N.T.M.- Not to mention
A.F.A.- As far as
I.E.- in other words
C.C.W.- concealed carry weapon
O.A.- Overall
T.B.S.- That being said
T.A.C.E.- To a certain extent
F.T.M.P.- For the most part
J.M.O.- Just my opinion
Y.M.M.V.- Your mileage may vary
T.T.Y.L.- Talk to you later
 
Basically what I think you are asking is: What is the real functional difference between the Poly, Alloy and Steel?

What you are going to get is a bunch of non-answers along the lines of "it all depends" with a few reflex answers along the lines of "no one can tell you what gun is right for you". These are fine and all but I find them useless unless they are coupled with some form of information or even an opinion.

Anyway what it all comes down to is that unless there is some sort of flaw in the manufacturing process just about any respectable gun will last a pretty long damn time with the frame lasting longer than just about anything else. Exceptions being large bore revolvers and bad designs that let the firearm beat the crap out of itself. Because guns typically last a long damn time and alloy/poly guns are not nearly as old as modern steel guns any trends as far as longevity are difficult to spot. Also gun makers tend to try to use each material to the best effect possible. If a manufacturer were to make a poly gun, any of the weaknesses of polymer would be accommodated though the design of the firearm as are steel and alloy firearms. The fact that firearms are generally well designed, as far as durability is concerned, also masks any trends as far as frame durability. In a nutshell its apples to oranges.

Thats not a very satisfying answer though.
 
Given reasonable care you will wear out parts such as springs, barrels, firing pins, and other small parts long before any of the frames wear out. I think many of us are overly concerned about the polymer frames. Remington made thousands of their nylon .22's and they have been around for nearly 50 years and seem to be holding up fine.

Technology has advanced and the new polymer framed guns are made of even better materials today. I know it is a small sample, but I have seen more aluminum alloy frames with cracks than any other.
 
this is actually a very easy query to answer, and with all science (and experience) applied, it has been found that you should buy what you LIKE and when your great-grandchildren have a problem with it, they can replace it with what THEY like.
 
When I first got out of college, I worked in an aluminum foundry. I learned there that you can make an alloy with aluminum for almost any purpose and with almost any kind of strength characteristics, depending on what you alloy with it.

Realistically, you'd have to have the specific alloy you were using, the combination you were using, and all the metallurgical information on that alloy in order to determine it's "shelf life" in the firearm application. Depending on who the firearms manufacturer was, I would trust an alloy aluminum frame just as much as a steel frame (within limits), and expect the same kind of service from it. Normally, it would be lighter, and harder to "finish" than the steel frame, but with new coatings, etc. you'd almost have to be a chemist or a plating expert to determine that side of the equation.

I've got several pistolos with aluminum frames, and they're comfortable to shoot (mostly 9mm), but the pressures of 9mm are less than something like a .44 magnum, so the thickness to strength ratio might make the alloy frame unworkable in those calibers... as I said, it depends on the experience of the firearms manufacturer.

I suspect that you will wear out the internal parts, such as clips, pins, levers, etc. in the firearms that you buy with aluminum frames long before you wear out the frames... but nothing last forever but the rocks... and they change shape.

WT
 
In my thinking the polymer frame has a much greater benefit to the producer/manufacturer than the end user. This is through reduced manufacturing costs, reduced start-up costs and increased supply channels. Many products are like that, and they gain market share with lower cost to the end user while spending a lot of money marketing their products.

Then there are the benefits to the seller. They move more product, through greater selection and lower costs to the consumer. And you end up with a market cycle.

Each frame type has its benefits and pitfalls, the key is to understand what your preferences are and follow them. I guess most people end up with some of each frame type and shoot them all to some degree.

I happen to prefer steel, enjoy shooting with my aluminum frames and like the polymers least of all. If you have other preferences, that's fine with me.
 
I avoid polymer frames in a carry gun, weight doesn't bother me too much and Poly frames are more likely to be limp wristed, I am not millitary of LE trained and I don't know how I would react under stress, you can have the worst grip in the world on a steel frame gun and when you pull the trigger it will fire with out jamming, (provided the gun in question is a quality piece). for me I stick with steel but will go alloy if I have heard good about a certain gun, and I leave the poly guns on the shelves for the guys who like them. I do have to say I like the low weight on some of those guns, I just don't like it enough to change out my current carry guns.
 
What about polymer, given the environment which it lives (heating, cooling, flexing, cleaners, oils, ect), is there an expected service life or is it considered indefinite?
Click to expand...

My recollection is that Ruger expects their polymer frame pistols to last longer than their aluminum alloy ones.

Nothing made by men lasts forever.
 
I think any new gun has pretty long lifespan, does not seem to be unheard of to hear about 100,000rnd glocks and such. As far as I am concerned, ammo prices will retire my guns long before they wear out.
 
In my thinking the polymer frame has a much greater benefit to the producer/manufacturer than the end user. This is through reduced manufacturing costs, reduced start-up costs and increased supply channels.
Click to expand...
Polymer has certain advantages over metals for the user - namely, rust prevention and weight.
As for start-up costs, if memory serves the machines used for making the Glock/XD/P99 frames are obscenely expensive. Startup cost is high - look at gun manufacturers.
Now, the price of the plastic materials themselves is pretty low - if memory serves. After your machines are paid for, you're making a nice profit. It is cheaper to get metal working equipment. Not that cheap to get the stuff to do high-strength polymers.
Most/all gun businesses making polymer handguns are big ones... smaller ones tend to go with steel, aluminum, or in some cases, zinc and pot metal, in my experience.
 
I am totally about polymer frames.

kool_aidGlock.jpg

Walther.
http://www.pafoa.org/forum/pistols-41/12348-walther-p1-experience-warnings-praises.html#post195838
brokenp-1.jpg

Smith and Wesson.
http://actionsbyt.blogspot.com/2008/01/mouseguns-and-more.html
P1010042.jpg

Makarov.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=1207006&postcount=4
excam_frame_crack.jpg

1911.
http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html
CrackDetail.jpg
 
W.E.G., your third picture is actually an FIE Titan .25 with aluminum frame, not a Makarov. That particular one is my daughter's gun.
 
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