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steer me right = .45 Colt wildcat" stuff, etc."

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by labgrade, Jan 31, 2003.

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  1. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

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    I've one of those T/C .410 gauge/.45 Colt barrels & would like to maximize it for the .45 Colt.

    Everythig I've heard, The extreme jump for The Colt (lead) seems to indicate that I won't ever get anything really accurate reagrds the .45 Colt.

    Seems a wildcat based on the .444 Marlin could work.

    Not looking to boost pressures anywise, only to get a boosted (already stated Ruger & T/C-stated pressure level) but with a better accuracy regards "the jump."

    Really, two things = I'm looking for stuff regards the .45 Colt in Contenders for hot loads and for standard (sub-sonics in same) - accuracy is paramount.

    Any pointers?
     
  2. WESHOOT2

    WESHOOT2 Member

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    ACCURATE? YOU WANT ACCURATE?

    Try 2400.
    Non-magnum primers (I prefer CCI and Federal).
    REALLY GOOD BULLETS (Beartooth, Cast Performance, Dry Creek, Penn), 250-360g.
    Redding Profile Crimp die.

    Yeah.
     
  3. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

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    Thanks, WESHOOT2.

    Had bought some new Win brass, CCI LP primers & RCBS dies. We'll see about that Redding thing, ;) Oh yeah, & some Speer 260 HPs.

    Was just gonna break down & get the Lyman 255 gr SWC mold, but can't swing it yet - this month though hopefully. & was just gonna play with some Unique, but your post made me reconsider.

    Haven't loaded with 2400 since I sold my 29 many years ago .... (whistful sigh)

    Ought to be a fun barrel to play around with all told.

    Even have some 45 sabots that'll accept 9MM/.38 size bullets. Wonder if I can get a 110 to 3Kfps?

    & while we're at it - anything round ball loads? Shot a few of those out of the .44 & they were about like a heavy-hitting wrist-rocket ....
     
  4. jacks308

    jacks308 Member

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    I haven't fooled with the T/C , sorry if I can't be specific . I did some work with a S&W 28 and .357 cases with double ended cast wadcutters seated so they were about twenty thousand short of the end of the cylinder . I had just enough room to lube one groove and ad a taper crimp to the middle of the slug . This was a drastic improovement from .38 flush -seated stuff .

    In a T/C , I'd look for really heavy and hard cast or jacketed if the jump is real long . I'm clueless on the jump you half to work with . Being a single shot is an advantage I would think because you'd only need enough case contact to insure the cork don't fall out of the end with reasonable handling .

    Jack
     
  5. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

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    I have no idea what the "jump" is, but this barrel is designed to also shoot the .410 3" shotgun shell - I'd just bet the lead is rather long.

    Just picking up some stuff here 'n there, I've heard that this barrel can suck re anything accruate reagrds the .45 Colt.

    Somebosy "out there" made mention of this extra jump & its associated lack of accuracy.

    Wondering out loud .....

    .444 Marlin just seems so close to a longer .45 Colt not to ask & I did think I read some mention of a wildcat offa this brass to just ask ....

    TFL/THR seems so "old school" in some ways regards a few pertinent questions .... ;)

    I'd bet that the jump in the this barrel, from a standard .45 Colt through the .410 lead, has to be 2" plus.

    I dunno & just asking from my fave folks.

    Yup. Lotsa pluses dealing with a single shot = crimp (depending on powder/ignition -= certainly no back-outs to deal with, etc.) & this barrel/platform is right up there with the Rugers far as performance is concerned.

    More wondering out loud stuff ....
     
  6. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    I have been tinkering with this and keep running into a problem that I have noted is also discussed at other places.

    The problem is that the 45LC/.410 guns have two different chamber diameters. The 45LC fits but a 454 Casull won't because there is a rim or jump in the chamber diameter precisely to prevent the 453 Casull or 460 S&W from being chambered.

    The same thing holds true if you shove a .452 bullet into the end of a 3 inch .410 shell. The diameter of the .452 bullet plus the vinyl 410 shell is too fat to fit into that distal part of the chamber. This is true in 3 guns that I have. I have the BFR revolver, the encore, and the H&R/NEF Survivor. All 3 have the same design to prevent putting a .452 bullet further down the bore than the 45LC is designed to allow. So, it appears impossible to put that .452 bullet closer to the threads of the barrel.

    Now, you might be able to ream the chamber or have a gunsmith do it for you if you can find one willing to do that. It becomes a dangerous issue legally. The 454 Casull and 460 S&W and the 444 Marlin necked up to .452 and .303 Brit blown out and necked up to .452 and even 3 inch .410 brass loaded with .452 bullets could all suddenly be loaded into those 3 guns.

    The Russian Barnaul company loads a foster type slug that is roughly .400 caliber into a sabot that makes the combination basically a 44 mag (.430 caliber) and they shoot that down the barrel of a 410 Saiga smoothbore...
    That is interesting.

    I can shoot the same Barnaul rounds out of all 3 of my guns and it is actually quite accurate out of all 3 guns. That Barnaul round (97 grain bullet in a steel case coated with brass/nickel) is the most accurate cartridge I have found for all 3 guns right now.

    But, you can't even fit a .452 bullet into the empty shell after it is fireformed because the 3 guns are designed to not allow that.

    But, the Barnaul round seems to expand with the forster slug and sabot combo to adequately engage the threads enough to be accurate. Now, I'm not talking the sort of accuracy that is impressive. I'm just saying that this is the most accurate cartridge I have found so far.

    I have been thinking about taking that Barnaul round apart, putting a 10 mm 200 grain bullet in the same sabot, and cutting the wad down some to allow additional powder...

    I know the encore, BFR, and H&R/NEF Survivor will all three withstand pressures way beyond typical 45LC or typical .410. The BFR with the 6 chambered cylinder is limited (per email communication from the company) to a CUP of "stay under 30K". The encore will probably tolerate pressures under 40K. The Survivor will probably handle up to 45K

    I have also been looking for a lead bullet or bullet cast device to make 44 mag bullets with a hollow base (foster slug idea). That way, surely I can get it to expand to engage the threads in the 20 inch barrel on the Survivor. But, so far I haven't found anything. Right now, that looks like a project.

    Now, there is also the HotShot idea. I did find a "capsule" that is intended to be loaded with shot and then sealed and then loaded in 45LC "like a bullet". I was thinking of ordering the "capsules" and measuring their internal diameter to see what size bullet I can load into there... Don't know how well the capsule will act like a sabot. but, that would allow me to extend the bullet a lot further down the chamber like the 444 Marlin idea.

    I was also looking at the Hornady EZ Loader idea for muzzleloaders. I think that is a gimmick....

    But, if I could make a "stick" device to glue to a 45 caliber sabot fitted to a 10mm bullet.... then I could extend the bullet further down the chamber near the threads. I could even keep the 444 Marlin/45LC/.410 shotshell 2.5 inch cartridge open and load triple seven pellets around the "stick". I won't get into any pressure problems with blackpowder replacements...

    Anyway, I have been brainstorming this and reading in other places where the same motivation has existed. You can do a search on "450 Mongo" and find the idea of blowing out the 444 Marlin and loading it with a .452 bullet. But, it won't fit in the 45LC/.410 guns...
     
  7. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    has anyone out there figured out how to maximize the 45LC/.410's potential?
     
  8. Seafarer12

    Seafarer12 Member

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    I am not sure if there is a way or improoving it. The chamber is so long to take the .410. If you neck up a 444 it will still be short. My advice is sell the barrel and buy a 45 LC barrel.
     
  9. snuffy

    snuffy Member

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    I have a Super Comanche 45/410 made in Argentina by Lasserre. It's a single shot, vaguely similar to a contender. It's actually a POS! In that it's made very cheaply, of rough finish inside and out. The "as supplied" trigger pull was off the scale on my trigger pull gauge. A stoning produced an acceptable pull.

    A grin to shoot with 410 shells, especially the 3 inch stuff. BUT as you noted the 45 colt loads produced groups like I was shooting buckshot! The rifling,(not "threads"), is poorly done, and the long jump or freebore is not conducive to accuracy.

    As a survival gun, it is versatile, but only for extremely close quarters.

    I did some experimenting with these:
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=151679

    After loading and firing, they had a two diameter look to them. The 45 colt chamber, then a smaller 410 chamber forward of that. I even loaded some 40 bullets in them, they seemed to hit point forward, but again lousy groups. I suspect there was a huge amount of blowby in the .452 barrel.

    Here's an option, but expensive.
    http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/prodinfo.asp?number=0231842

    I have a couple of boxes of it, I should try five through the comanche to see how they shoot. I also have a Rossi 410 single shot I want try them in.

    Short of having the "step" bored out of the barrel, then chambering something like the 444 blown out to fit, will result in any accuracy. I would NOT do that with my comanche. It's just not strong enough for it.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    Snuffy, you linked to a site selling the Golden Bear 97 grain slugs. They are available quite a bit cheaper than that if you look around. I actually commented on them earlier above. Barnaul is the company who makes the Golden Bear, Silver Bear, etc. Bear ammo. They are a Russian company regarded in Russia as superior to the Wolff Brand from Russia.

    Anyway, I am very familiar with the Golden Bear slugs and own a LOT of them. They are by far the most accurate cartridge I have found or produced so far for the 45LC/.410 combo.

    Again, note above, that if you disassemble the Russian slug, you have a 10 mm Foster slug inside a sabot where the sabot/slug combo is right at 44 mag diameters.

    I suspect the improved accuracy is due to:
    1)elimination of the "Jump" down the chamber before engaging the threads
    2)the 44 mag diameter/foster slug combo *might* expand to engage the threads.

    So, one of my ideas is to load 44 mag soft lead with a hollowed base into .410 brass to see if I can get that to expand enough to engage the threads for accuracy. If so, then I could experiment with powders to get up to an impressive cartridge.

    So far I have not found a market available lead bullet mold for a hollowed base 44 mag (.430 caliber)

    I also have considered taking the Golden Bear/Silver Bear/Barnaul slug cartridge apart. I could put a 10 mm bullet in the existing sabot. I could cut the 410 wad down to a shorter size to give me more space for powder.

    Agree that the most simple thing to do would be to ream out the chamber to make the whole 3 inch length the same diameter as the proximal aspect that seats the 45LC. Then, everything is simple (although potentially dangerous to a novice handloader).
     
  11. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    "I did some experimenting with these:
    http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=151679

    After loading and firing, they had a two diameter look to them. The 45 colt chamber, then a smaller 410 chamber forward of that. I even loaded some 40 bullets in them, they seemed to hit point forward, but again lousy groups. I suspect there was a huge amount of blowby in the .452 barrel. "

    Sounds like you had much the same idea as me. I'm glad you linked me to the 410 brass. The other places who used to carry it don't seem to have it anymore. So, I grabbed some of it from Midway.

    I was thinking about loading the .430 caliber bullets as noted above. I was hoping with the Foster slug idea to get them to expand. I might even use the "Tru Ball" idea and put a stainless steel wheel bearing behind the hollow base to "encourage" it to expand and engage the threads.
     
  12. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    "I am not sure if there is a way or improoving it. The chamber is so long to take the .410. If you neck up a 444 it will still be short. My advice is sell the barrel and buy a 45 LC barrel."

    I have a 44 mag which is quite similar to a hotload 45LC. At least the two can be handloaded to be quite similar.

    If I give up, I'll go with a 444 Marlin or a 460 S&W. I recently did pick up a 45-70 encore barrel. I expect to have some fun with that... I got the longer rifle barrel, 20 inches I think.
     
  13. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    Has anyone ever made a bullet where the base was a smaller diameter that the part of the bullet visible beyond the brass?
    In other words, why not design a lead mold where the base is .430 or so to fit into the 410 brass and slide it down the neck of the brass to where it hits a shoulder on the bullet itself where the bullet diameter increases to .452? You crimp the brass on the .430 diameter bullet base.
    Take a 2.5 inch 410 brass shell. Create the above bullet. Make the max case length 3 inches or just under 3 inches...

    Now, you have a helluva cartridge for the 45/410 Survivor... You take full advantage of the 410 2.5 inch cartridge and full advantage of the .452 barrel.

    What do you think? Am I nuts?
     
  14. snuffy

    snuffy Member

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    Nope, not a bit. You just love to say what if, then actually do it. Once I even fired 45 muzzleloader sabots in a trapdoor 45/70 using a 50 cal pyrodex pellet for a powder source. They were reasonably accurate. Since they contained a 357 bullet, it made sense to try it.

    In other words, like a .22 rimfire, with a rebated heel? Possibly you could modify a .44 mag mold by opening up the top to produce a 2 diameter boolit.:scrutiny:

    I just did some measurements, the CBC,(magtech), brass 410's that I have are .461 outside, .440 inside diameter X 2.357 long. So a two diameter mold of .440 heel and .452 nose driving bands would work perfect!:what:

    Also, the brass magtech 410 is the same diameter base as the belted magnums. That means you can prime them with a press, or as I do with a lee auto prime. Also a universal de-capper works just great for the de-priming chore!:D

    I think I'm in the market for a 45/.410 contender barrel! This idea my be the start of some fun wildcatting!:evil: That Comanche is just not made well enough for an experiment like this.
     
  15. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    I was also thinking about using triple seven. turns out the .45 caliber muzzleloader preformed pellets fit perfectly down a 410 shell... I was hoping to create a Hornady EZ Loader style stim/stick to be held in the middle of those preformed pellets and glue/epoxy that stick to the back of a 45 sabot holding a 10 mm bullet. That was basically the same idea as the bullet/sabot combo would be held in advance of the open 410 shell. I could even use the specialized 209 primers for the black powder alternatives...

    Anyway, you understood exactly what I meant. It is exactly like a 22 rimfire shell. I have never taken one apart so I did after reading your post and that is precisely the idea that popped into my head...

    Now, if you modify a 44 mag mold, wouldn't the base diameter be too small?
    Perhaps we have to modify a .452 bullet after it is made. Might have to lean on a buddy with a machine shop to "turn" the base down to .440, leaving the nose at .452

    What do you think the overall cartridge length should be? I suspect we could load 240-300 grain bullets this way. The mass would be slightly diminished by turning the base down to .440

    And, finally, what powder would you try first?

    I was afraid as a novice to proceed. That was why I was going to go with triple seven first just to test the concept.

    Are you going to go with a pistol length contender? I know that TC doesn't make the rifle length 45/410 in the Encore anymore. I don't know about the contender.

    It was because of rifle length that I went out and had a fellow with a gun shop order the H&R Survivor for me. It has the 20 inch barrel and plenty of steel to tolerate pressure.

    Anyway, I would very much like to hear from you as you put this together. I truly am a novice who just has ideas. So, I will feel safer if I duplicate you instead of running ahead of you.

    Thanks a lot for responding. You made my day. I have been brainstorming over this for months and have read at least 5 books and countless blogs/chat boards and other online sources. No one has done this that I can tell. They have all universally given up when they discovered they couldn't fit a .452 bullet with brass around it (seated in the usual fashion) in the chamber.

    I love this as a "survivor type" field gun. When we get this safely working, suddenly the gun is a:
    1)45LC capable of hot loads
    2)410 shotgun capable of handling the hottest slugs
    3)something probably superior to 444 Marlin and maybe approaching 460 S&W
     
  16. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    after reviewing the Hornady handloading book and looking at brass dimensions, I think this wildcat CAN be just under 458 Magnum (brass has less powder capacity due to smaller diameter, but same length, 2.5 inch).

    Again, the issue is safety and CUP tolerance. I don't need a 458 magnum to hunt deer or anything else in N. America...

    Technically with 3 inch 410 brass and an appropriate gun, this wildcat idea might exceed 458 magnum. It would probably be a bolt action project.

    I have heard of people taking the Brit 303 and sporterizing it to use 410 brass. But, I think they were firing 30 caliber bullets or 40 caliber or 41 caliber bullets. I suppose you could basically turn it into a much longer, stronger 444 Marlin and load it with .430 caliber bullets or even .440 caliber based on your measurement.

    But, I am just rambling about possibilities. I was not dreaming this big when I was trying to maximize my BFR revolver, 10 inch encore barrel, and 20 inch Survivor.
     
  17. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    I also looked at the Comanche once or three times. But, I was also looking at the Taurus Judge. It was then that I discovered the BFR...
    The BFR I have was made before Magnum Research bought them out. So, mine is not stamped "Magnum Research BFR". BFR stands for "biggest finest revolvers" and the company was started in Nebraska.
     
  18. Okiecruffler

    Okiecruffler Member

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    It's been done, and fairly effectively. Do a search on a 450 mongo, that's what you're looking for.
     
  19. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    Okie, the guy who labeled it 450 Mongo could not get it to work for the same reason as I pointed out. When you blow out the 444 Marlin and load a .452 bullet in it, it won't fit into the 45/410.

    Now, I saw where someone managed to thin out a 444 Marlin by resizing it with the bullet loaded in the brass. They said they got that to work.

    But, the 450 Mongo never worked unless they reamed out the chamber or made a new gun to handle it.

    I mentioned this on another thread. I'll put that link here and its content:
    "http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm

    I find the Barnaul (Russian) 410 slug interesting. It is roughly a 10 mm foster type slug in a sabot that makes the combo basically 44 mag. The Russians have been shooting that down the Saiga 410 AK platform...

    I find the same cartridge to be the most accurate cartridge for my BFR 45LC/.410, my encore 45/.410, and my NEF/H&R 45/.410. It appears the greater accuracy may be due to:
    1)putting the bullet nearer the threads than any other system with a 45/.410 combo
    2)perhaps the sabot/foster slug expand to engage the .452 caliber barrel.

    Anyway, jump over to this other thread:

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...60#post4556160

    Let me know what you guys think of the several failed trials of myself and others to improve the 45/.410 and the additional ideas I have..."

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=170592&page=3

    And, you'll note that we are talking about a cartridge much more impressive than the 450 Mongo now
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2008
  20. snuffy

    snuffy Member

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    http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=320656

    Geeze louise I guess so!:eek: At bal. prod. prices, 50 rounds would cost $69.50 Sportsman's guide has them a 50 round count for $27.97!:neener:
     
  21. Okiecruffler

    Okiecruffler Member

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    I know a few guys using the mongo. You have to ream the inside of the case a bit, much like the old 44 auto mag.
     
  22. Curator

    Curator Member

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    A heeled bullet mould is produced for the .44 Colt that has a "heel" of about .44 and a nose of .454. Check the Australian mouldmaker CBE's web site. You could also contact veral Smiat of LBT. He'll make a mould to your specifications.
     
  23. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    "I know a few guys using the mongo. You have to ream the inside of the case a bit, much like the old 44 auto mag."

    I suspect that would work. I did also see where another fellow necked up the 444 Marlin (rather than blowing it out) to .452 and then resized the neck/bullet combo (resized it with the bullet in place) to squeeze it down.

    Either way, they are basically thinning out the 444 Marlin brass. Interestingly, I think the 444 Marlin brass was intentionally thickened...

    Just seems to me (and I had my Eureka moment just 2 days ago) that it would be better to use the "two diameter" bullet. I quoted a good man above as I think he did a better job of describing it.

    And, it seems to me that you could use the 2.5 inch .410 brass that Midway is selling...
     
  24. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    "A heeled bullet mould is produced for the .44 Colt that has a "heel" of about .44 and a nose of .454. Check the Australian mouldmaker CBE's web site. You could also contact veral Smiat of LBT. He'll make a mould to your specifications."

    Thanks a ton. That is very helpful.
     
  25. wmbwinn

    wmbwinn Member

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    Yes, Snuffy, my memory is that the Barnaul/Gold Bear/Silver Bear .410 slugs and/or buckshot are about 2.50 to 2.75 dollars per box of five cartridges.

    I was shocked when I followed your link and saw what they are charging.

    I have a gunstore near me selling the stuff for about 3 dollars for a box of 5 which is a consideration since I have to pay shipping if I order it online.
     
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