Steyr HS50's seized in Iraq

[Thin Black Line]

Ok, we now have 3 active Steyr 50 threads.......

 

[Low-Sci]

Understandably so. We knew this was going to be trouble back when the sale first took place, but we didn't do jack.

And we could have, if we're honest with ourselves. We could have intercepted the shipment or prevented the sale through political pressure. Tell Steyr that they'll never sell another weapon in the US, and you could have stopped them. Their fault for selling them to a sh*tty country, our fault for not stopping them.

Still, I think these rifles are more scary than they are truly dangerous. At 30 lbs and as big as they are, insurgents will likely have problems moving them around with much efficiency. And they're single-shot, which will count for something.

I'm never buying a Steyr weapon as long as I live.

 

[50 Shooter]

Talk about jumping to conclusions....

Show me the bullets that killed the soldiers! I'm calling BS on this story, watching the news this morning they're already changing the story on this.

BS, BS, BS, BS!!!!

More PROPAGANDA for the anti's!

 

[bowfin]

Maybe if the U.S. Army told the Democrats that they seized these weapons as they were being shipped to California....why, think of the outrage!

 

[coltrane679]

There is an international market in arms (with the US being the biggest seller, BTW). Unless it is something super-restricted, any nation with the cash will be able to buy just about anything they want. If you don't think US arms wind up in the hands of some unsavory regimes, you are dreaming.

The fundamental problem is the war itself, not the particular rifles being used.

 

[Master Blaster]

Iran has been arming terrorist insurgents across the middle east for years.
The Israelis caught an Iranian freighter loaded with weapons, Aks, rocket launchers, mortars, and grenades headed for the Gaza Strip, a couple of years ago. The Iranians admit arming and training Hezbollah which attacked Israel, and is currently destabilising Lebanon.

You would think though that they would have the sense to at least arm their Iraqi friends them with AK based weapons that are a little bit harder to trace, and won't make their friends in Austria look so bad.

But then Russia and Its president for life, Vladamir Kruschev isnt concerned about sending Iran the latest antiaircraft weapons.

Heck If Obama gets elected, I wouldnt be surprised if old Vlad trys to put Nuclear armed missiles in Cuba.

 

[coltrane679]

I see Pavlov's dogs have nothing on some THRers.

 

[bowfin]

coltrane, care to explain that remark?

 

[coltrane679]

No. Pith is its own virtue.

 

[wooderson]

Does civilian loss make me sad, yes. But would they do the same to us? Yes.

Who is "they"? What role do the civilians being killed play in the decisions of their state?

 

[50 Shooter]

I like how this story has grown legs of it's own by yellow journalism from a british news paper. See how they twisted the story to make it sound like 170 soldiers have been killed by the HS50. Now read this story as it contradicts with it as roadside bombs. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17129144/

 

[taliv]

I'm never buying a Steyr weapon as long as I live.

that's ok, i'll buy some extras to make up for it.


iirc, the only reason steyr sold the weapons to iran is that the US refused to allow steyr to import them for sale to US citizens.


as far as i'm concerned,

a) there's no evidence that they wouldn't have used some other gun to kill US soldiers
b) don't fall into the anti-mindset of blaming the gun instead of the shooter (those $10,000 guns sure are scary!)
c) they wouldn't have the guns in the first place if our government was doing its job

 

[wQuay]

Given our past, the US is just about the last country that can take the high road regarding the international arms trade.

And considering that we supported the Afghan insurgency with billions of dollars and some of the most advanced weapons of the day, Washington's current whining about Iran is pathetic.

 

[bowfin]

I don't think that Steyr, up until this time, really did anything wrong.

Now that the management of Steyr can see that the rifles were bought expressly for shipping to Iraq's insurgents, they have to make a call, and I for one would take a dim view if they sold them so much as a set screw from here on out.

As far as these weapons being .50 caliber sniper weapons, that is a moot point. Even if the weapons supplied were Raven .25 pistols, the sin for Iran is in the intent and behavior, not the hardware.

Still, I would be hesitant to give Ahmanejihad a shooting war, unless it would be an all out, bomb the cities and mine the harbors, scorched earth one, giving half the country to the Kurds. Anything less just reverses the eroding support he is suffering at home and abroad.

Hey, there's a thought...give all confiscated Iranian hardware to the Kurds, and tell them that half of Iran is theirs for the taking.

coltrane, I think the old two watt light bulb kicked on your original comment, please forgive my obtuseness. My workday went from 5:00 A.M. to midnight yesterday, and the Foglifter coffee hadn't kicked in yet. My apologies if I sounded curt.

 

[coltrane679]

bowfin,

I wasn't personally offended at all. Thank you for even considering the possibility, however--you are a true gentleman.

Writing long posts is easy for me. Saying exactly what I want say with a very few words is much harder--so when I get it right, I am keeping my mouth shut!

 

[offthepaper]

"Hey, there's a thought...give all confiscated Iranian hardware to the Kurds, and tell them that half of Iran is theirs for the taking"
--------------------------------
Sounds about right. But who gets the other half.......Exxon?

 

[Prince Yamato]

Who is "they"? What role do the civilians being killed play in the decisions of their state?

"They" are Iranians and the role the played was participating in the revolution and publicly supporting their islamofascist regime. They certainly don't actively denounce errorism either do they?

 

[coltrane679]

It used to be only muderous tyrants easily found convenient excuses to wantonly kill civilians. I am glad we are so much more advanced now.

 

[phantomak47]

Steyr has gone out of buisness and sold all of their firearms to Cdnn investments. They are not importing anymore firearms into the states.

 

[Mr. James]

What's that mean? It's ok as long as there's absolutely no possibility it could personally affect you?

TBL, good heavens, no, that is not at all what I meant (and if it is what LiberalGunNut meant, then I withdraw my thumbs up!).

 

[Prince Yamato]

It used to be only muderous tyrants easily found convenient excuses to wantonly kill civilians. I am glad we are so much more advanced now.

I'll assume that was directed at me. Newsflash: they want to kill us. I know, such an excuse. Do you honestly think you can launch a war and avoid civilian casulties? The answer is no. If I have to choose between Americans and Iranians dying, guess which I'll pick? I personally feel that we shouldn't even give Iran the time of day. They want to rumble with the big boys, let's rumble, except unlike Iraq, let's do it without our hands tied behind our back. They want to be able to use nuclear weapons, fine, but we can use them too. Horrific, yes, but war is horrific. If it wasn't, it wouldn't be called war, it'd be called peacetime.

 

[Liberal Gun Nut]

For a group that always keens "blame the actor, not the tool," some seem ready to tar and feather the hardware man.

Yeah it's not like Iran couldn't manufacture these things, or order similar things from China, or perhaps even get them from the US via a third party.

The really dangerous weapons are guided missiles and armor-penetrating explosives. Iran is getting the guided missiles from China and is producing the armor-penetrators themselves.

The way to stay out of danger of these things is to stay out of range.

Stay out of fights.

 

[Zoogster]

Who is "they"? What role do the civilians being killed play in the decisions of their state?

It used to be only muderous tyrants easily found convenient excuses to wantonly kill civilians. I am glad we are so much more advanced now.

This is a common philosophy now because we know as even with the most advanced military in the world we are vulnerable to attacks on civilians, and because in foriegn policy we use it to sell the public on a regime we do not like being evil.

However civilians have always been legitimate targets in warfare. Thier taxes are what funds the military, thier economy is what keeps the military functioning. In a democracy even more so than anywhere else because they as civilians choose who is in charge. Iran is a democracy. Civilian factories and workers are the makers of bombs, the creators of technology in the weapons, the creators of the weapons and vehicles themselves. We understood this in WW2 when we carpet bombed cities and factories filled with civilians. We understood this when we nuked one city, saw the civilian death toll, and proceeded to nuke another city. Also consider most countries have mandatory military service, and that in time of war all the soldiers killed on the battlefield will be replaced from willing or unwilling recruits from the population of civilians. In America for example all able bodied men are part of the informal militia (per the Constitution) from which soldiers may be drawn from. If not enough soldiers are available voluntarily and there is need, they will be drafted, period. This is the case around the world. The military cannot and does not fund themselves, they only can function with the taxes and economy and goods provided by the civilian market.

We are all in it together, trying to raise the white flag because you are a "civilian" when our very constitution says we are all part of the militia is ironic at best. As long as thier is a civilian population to draw from, thier will be replacements for every single soldier that dies on a battlefield. Civilians are not indifferent or seperate from the decisions of thier leaders if they choose who thier leaders are. Whether they choose by voting for them in a democracy, or whether they choose by not revolting and overthrowing them in another form of government, they are the ones ultimately responsible for what is allowed to be done by and in thier nation. They always outnumber and must fund and support those in power for them to function.

 

[Zundfolge]

Steyr has gone out of buisness and sold all of their firearms to Cdnn investments. They are not importing anymore firearms into the states.

Not true.

Steyr has recently sold to a group of investors calling themselves "The Hunters" headed up by Franz Holzschuh; "The Man that brought Starbucks to Austria".


Steyr got screwed by the US government as the rifles in question were built for the American sporting and LE market, but then were not allowed to be imported (although apparently some HS50s made their way here). Steyr's old management decided it would be better to sell these rifles to Iran "for use in police work" than to hold on to them, go out of business and have the rifles sold off by the bank (probably to Iran).


Anyway, I agree it was dumb for Steyr to sell these rifles to Iran, but just like there is a great Hue and Cry that we forgive S&W because those nasty Brits don't own them anymore and that we forgive Ruger because Bill Ruger is dead and none of his spawn run the company anymore, I say we forgive Steyr and see what the new owners do next (hopefully someone with enough marketing/business savvy to bring Starbucks to Austria has enough marketing/business savvy to bring AUGs back to the states).


Iran also has F14s ... you wanna punish Grumman?

 

[alucard0822]

The international arms trade is the ultimate exercise in capitalism, areas in conflict are the best customers and if they cannot manufacture weapons themselves there are several companies and nations standing in line to sell to them. The arms companies are always looking to increase sales and profits as any succesful company will do, if steyer is indeed out of buisness this goes to show what happens, US cigarette manufacturers export products to countries around the world to diversify, just as liquor companies during the temperance movement found companies with controversial products can be legislated out of the American market at the drop of a hat and will do what they can to stay in buisness. As far as steyer selling arms to Iran and Iran selling to iraq, they were probably as upset at us when we were exporting arms and technology to Saddam in Iraq to aid in their war with Iran, we knew Iraq had WMDs, after all we had the reciepts. I just hope that they don't start finding Iraqi insurgents flying around in those F-14s that Iran has. It seems Irans leadership has tried about every measure to pick arguments with the US if anything, to give them an opportunity to defy us and show the world they will stand up for their "soverign rights". If you think the 50s are a big deal wait a couple years when the insegency is using tactical nukes against the US and Israel. Sometimes the only way to stop a threat is to use overwhelming force and balance the cost in collateral damage with the intended effectiveness of the tactic.