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Still learning handgun safety

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by DeepSouth, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. Ralph III

    Ralph III Member

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    Firstly, I didn't say that I didn't read any of the other posts. Secondly, I was correcting your statement that the OP saw and recognized a "problem before it becomes a problem". The OP didn't recognize a potential issue and then he created a dangerous situation by actually losing his gun in a chair. If a child had found the gun or someone had sat on it causing an accidental discharge, THEN there would have been a problem now wouldn't there.

    I chose to post what I did and I'd do it again because it will never be "moot" no matter how many times it gets posted. You have the wrong attitude and it's not such I'd tolerate in my house or while around other gun owners. Firearm safety and firearm awareness isn't something to take trivially and it can never be over stressed.

    I've been around guns all of my life and I've been around a lot of people with guns all of my life. We were raised to adhere to safety and to be firearm conscious. A lot of folks aren't and consequently they don't practice such. I've witnessed things like this and there are stories all over the internet about such. Things like this are way to prevalent and they should not be if proper firearm awareness was practiced. If my post pisses you then good because gun owners should practice both responsibility as well as promote responsibility. You can remove the winking Emoji now.

    Ralph
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  2. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    This is what led me to believe you hadn't read all the posts. I will leave the emoji.

    I too have been around guns all my life and have had extensive training. You and I are not in disagreement.
     
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  3. theotherwaldo

    theotherwaldo Member

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    It's so easy to add snaps to pocket holsters and pockets of pants, jackets and vests.

    How come no one seems to do it?
     
  4. Drail

    Drail Member

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    Buy a gun belt and a good holster. DO NOT buy any holster that "clips" on to the belt. Clips are for kids. The belt MUST thread through the holster. Pocket carry is a Very Bad Idea. You need that gun secured to your butt so that someone can slam you onto the deck HARD and your gun is still where it is suposed to be. A loose gun is an accident that IS going to happen. A loaded gun MUST be secured AT ALL TIMES or it will do terrible damage.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  5. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Could not disagree more. Plenty of single clip holsters, Vedder for example, hold plenty tight and secure. Slip less than any belt loop holster I've ever had.

    Belt loop leather is for old dinosaurs ;):D
     
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  6. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    Certainly possible, but man, am I skeptical.
     
  7. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I speak only from my experience and observation. Once I got my first Vedder, leather holsters were done. Proper tension on the screw (and locktite too) and mine are more secure to bumps and falls and activity than my Milt Sparks and the like were.

    Some of the plastic clips out here, sure, I'll agree, but Vedder uses spring steel that holds tight and secure.

    Sure, if you use a heavy gun like a steel 1911 I've found a few of the clips eventually bent some, but they are cheap and easy to replace.
     
  8. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    For clarity, is your assertion that the gun is held in the holster more securely, or that the holster is on the belt more securely, or is it both?
     
  9. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    I feel both. But the original post I replied to was talking about belt loops vs clips, so that's probably be primary in this discussion.

    Edit: for double clarity, I only carry IWB so the belt always helps as well for retention.
     
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  10. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

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    4-rules_orig.jpg
     
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  11. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    I'm still skeptical, but that's why there are a bunch of holster makers and options and we all get to make our own choices.

    This probably hasn't crossed your mind, so I'm just yanking your chain a bit, but...

    5 Shot Leather IBS https://www.5shotleather.com/ibs.htm

    Kramer IWB #2 https://www.kramerleather.com/collections/iwb-gun-holsters/products/iwb-2-holster

    if you like kydex, Aholster with loop https://aholster.com/iwb-aholster/

    Those holsters aren't coming off the belt. I suspect you can take the Vedder off your belt with one hand. Though perhaps I'm still not clear on what you're talking about.


    I'm pretty sure Drail will pop back in, but I think he was talking about OWB holsters.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  12. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    If that is the case, then we agree.
     
  13. Ralph III

    Ralph III Member

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    With due respect, I clearly stated I hadn't read all of the posts. However, such didn't make my post irrelevant as I offered a different perspective on both gun safety and awareness coming from 50 years of extensive usage of firearms. If someone with such experience is going to offer a perspective on gun safety; then I'd suggest for future reference that you refrain from attempting to dismiss such or using childish emoji's. I didn't take it personally but I do find such to be highly offensive and the wrong attitude. It's not the attitude that should be associated with firearm ownership, period. I am glad we are in agreement in that regards though.

    Ralph
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  14. Ralph III

    Ralph III Member

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    Thanks for posting those typically denoted gun rules Kevin. As noted though, I have a few objections as to how these are presented and I think such is dangerously counter productive.

    Rule #1 should not be listed as, "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded" because it is not the most important rule. If you were only able to remember or adhere to one Rule this would not be it. After all, you could still have an accidental or purposeful discharge and cause significant harm or damage if you were pointing the gun in an improper direction. In that case, this Rule would have served no meaningful purpose for you.

    Rule #2 should never be stated as, "Never point your gun's muzzle at anything that you are not willing to destroy". This is an abbreviated or otherwise unnecessary statement. The greatest danger is that it ignores what is truly important.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Rule #1 should always be stated simply as. "Always know where the muzzle of your gun in pointing...". This is the rule I have always followed because it keeps you in a state of consciousness. If you practice and follow this rule you will make a conscious effort to always know the status of your gun. If the OP had made it a practice to always know the status of his gun then his and other such common mistakes could be avoided.

    The next most important Rule is, "Always know your target and what is beyond it". Otherwise the wording above is fine. It should never be low on the list though because as long as you adhere to these two Rules, no harm will come from either carrying or discharging your weapon whether purposeful or accidental!

    The remaining Rules are appropriate. "Treat all guns as if they are loaded" and "Never put your finger in the trigger guard until you are ready to fire". Neither one of those Rules or others could help you avoid a detrimental accident though if your weapon were to discharge in an inappropriate direction. Only the first two Rules, especially Rule #1, could help you avoid a detrimental accident in case of an accidental discharge. The NRA does list the first Rule as "ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction" but they fail in their denotation of the remaining Rules. https://gunsafetyrules.nra.org/

    God Bless,
    Ralph
     
  15. TomJ
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    TomJ Contributing Member

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    I carried IWB for years, but now pocket carry out of necessity due to back issues. I tried OWB but it also aggrevates my back and I risk further damaging it. I'd prefer to carry IWB but that's not in the cards for me. I use a Mika pocket holster and just, if not more importantly I make sure the pants and shorts I buy have pockets that are loose enough that I can draw the gun quickly but snug enough that the gun is secure. It significantly limits what I can wear and I've spent more times in changing rooms tryng on pants and shorts than I care to, but I've been pocket carrying for a couple of years now with no issues.
     
  16. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

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    I am always amused when people show-up here to lecture the rest of us while denigrating the real experts' teachings.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  17. Ralph III

    Ralph III Member

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    Kevin, nobody is lecturing anyone. Secondly, have you ever visited YouTube, or even this forum, to see many of these "experts" giving advice on how to shoot or shooting techniques? You get a hundred different opinions on every aspect of shooting from teaching that the "Surprise Trigger Break" is absolutely necessary for good marksmanship while others claim that to be "absolute BS". That's how Brian Zins put it (btw) in a conversation I had with him. I have a lot of respect for Jerry Miculek but I've seen him purposefully misrepresent different shooting methods in order to simply promote a preferred method. This is wrong on many levels because what works for one person might not work for another and while one stance may be good for paper or steel targets, it may not be good for self defense purposes.

    It's the same thing with how Gun Safety Rules are denoted. There is no overall consensus on wording nor the order in which they are listed. This is not a good thing. So if you choose to base everything you believe on what the "experts" tell you with their varying opinions and non coherent presentations while ignoring what you've learned yourself; then by all means do so.

    In regards to gun safety however, these non coherent teaching methods have utterly failed to achieve what they should achieve. This thread appropriately titled btw, "still learning handgun safety" and numerous posts on this thread are clear examples. There is no excuse, absolutely zero in my book, to have a gun fall out of your pocket and then to completely forget about it. That should never happen, period. Nor should you have someone inadvertently pointing a gun at someone. That happens quite often as well though. It happens because people are not taught to be aware of where they are pointing their gun nor to routinely check the status of their weapon. Where are the Rules denoting that?

    I've been around guns my entire life and shooting since the age of 7, nearly 50 years now; as our fathers began taking us hunting at that time. In all of my lifetime, we never had one accidental discharge of a weapon or any such mishaps as you see listed here and elsewhere. This never occurred because we were taught to always know the status of our gun and where we are pointing it. I've been around a lot of gun owners, from accomplished deer hunters to law enforcement to military, and I've witnessed them make some of these same common mistakes.

    I'm not claiming to be an expert but I practice and have promoted gun safety my entire life. I'm also managing 4in groupings with my stock Kahr S9 and Walther P22, both subcompact pistols, from 80ft. The rest of my trophies are hanging on the wall having made a lifetime of highly difficult rifle shots in bagging them. If you don't feel I have anything worthy of consideration then that's your choice.

    God Bless,
    Ralph

    3.jpg 5.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  18. SimonRL

    SimonRL Member

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    Honestly, who the heck takes his ccw sledding? I get that some people carry a pistol like they carry their wallet or phone, but c’mon if you can’t go sledding without carrying, you need to re-examine. Up next: I dropped my ccw while scuba diving/ball room dancing/hang gliding.
     
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  19. Pat Riot
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    Pat Riot Contributing Member

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    Well, I was trying to be respectful but I guess that doesn’t work for you. I guess an emoji means I am somehow flippant about gun safety in your eyes. So be it. Your opinion is just that, your opinion. That and $2.50 might get you a small coffee somewhere.
    You talk about “not lecturing” yet come across as a know-it-all. I don’t have 50 years experience. I have 46 years and the one thing I have learned is not to assume I know more or better than others, especially on a forum. Also, another thing I have learned is not everyone takes kindly to being browbeaten or lorded over when they have made a mistake.

    Do not ever presume to lecture me, Ralph III. This is the last I will say to you on this matter, unless, of course, you need to keep trying to have the last word to massage your ego. If that is the case, then have at it.
     
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  20. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

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  21. Rex in OTZ

    Rex in OTZ Member

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    Still learning handgun safety?


    Every time I pick one up.
    Your never too old to learn safety.

    Nothing funny about a negligent discharge taking a life.

    semper vestigans
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
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  22. Phaedrus/69

    Phaedrus/69 Member

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    You survived and you learned! A good belt and holster is a must. I was in a car wreck, rollover that totaled my car...but my CCW gun didn't move in a bit!
     
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  23. Ralph III

    Ralph III Member

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    I'm not the one who has the ego Pat Riot. That truly lies with you and Kevin as you obviously do not like being confronted or corrected.

    Secondly, I stated "Kevin, nobody is lecturing anyone.". So why do you now state, "Do not ever presume to lecture me, Ralph III"? Uhhhhh, I just stated I wasn't trying to lecture anyone. You can believe and act as you choose to act Pat. I'm simply trying to convey something to those who are willing to listen and who may gain something from what I and others have stated.

    Lastly, I am not browbeating the OP for having lost his gun but it really doesn't matter to me if you think I am. I am trying to convey a stern warning and to encourage a better approach to gun safety in order that such incidents can be avoided. I respect that the OP admitted to having lost his gun and he obviously RECOGNIZES that he made a mistake. I guarantee you that he'd be the first to tell you that he made a mistake and that he is taking steps to correct it! I applaud him for such. The fact he didn't take my criticism personally says more of him than it does of you and Kevin.

    Now, you can hurl any insult you like because it doesn't matter to me. Because if someone, even one person, can gain something from what I have stated and consequently avoid injuring themselves or someone else; then it's worth it to me. That's what drives me Pat. Now carry on......

    Ralph
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  24. str8_4ward

    str8_4ward Member

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    You are correct, the extra weight is a constant reminder that you are "dragging" something along. Carry IWB (H&KP7, SIG 239 or Makarov), anything larger (SIG 1911, SIG 229 or 226, Glock 20) is on my strong side in a paddle holster, sometimes I do use a retention rig, in particular when riding my bike.
     
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