Stop calling it gouging.

[Browning]

People are willing to pay $60 for PMAGs. Regardless of what the future or past price was/will be, that is what the price of a PMAG is on the current market. So whatever you think they're worth, Browning, the market says $60 because that is where the buyers and sellers are willing to meet. Don't like it, don't buy now, I know I won't be because a PMAG will never be worth $60...but hey, that's because I like 100+ year old firearms. To many buyers now, they are worth the $60. If there is a ban, then they have their mags which will be worth $60+, if there's not a ban, then they should have waited on their purchase (as many other buyers like both you and I are doing). If they're happy with their purchase and the seller is happy, what's so immoral there?

Like I said in the beginning, it's ironic how personal circumstances dictate morals.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=698187

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8703061#post8703061

AethelstanAegen
Member

I sold two of my AK's in the last week and a half. I had a lot of luck with my Armslist ads. It attracted local buyers so I didn't have to deal with shipping. The downside is that you would have to come up with a price you think is fair. I did research on what similar guns were selling for. In the end, I included a number of mags and hundreds of round of ammo with rifle. The price I set for the package was what many other sellers were asking for the rifle alone. I was happy because I got a good return on my investment and the buyers were happy since I offered them a total package and was willing to work on the price for them.

So you sold two AK's, one of which was an AMD-65 for $1,100 (twice what they were going for a couple months ago).

You telling me that this has nothing to do with your argument that there's nothing immoral about price gouging?

Umm, yeah...okay.

 

[coolluke01]

Tell me what that AK is worth? Name a price that is fundamental and non changing. Then we can compare what they are going for now and call it gouging.

 

[Grmlin]

The last items I bought anything major was an order I had in a the time of Newtown. I don't need anything, I'm not selling anything, just replacing some as I shoot. I check prices out of curiosity and have no problem calling it what it is. Is the manufacturer of PMAGS charging their distributers more? I thought I saw something about them telling direct distributors if they were caught inflating prices they would lose their distribution franchise. You call it what you want, I'll call it what I want. That's the great thing about this country, but do not assume because somebody does not agree with you that they know nothing about economics. I agree if you do not like the price don't buy it and look around because it's most likely cheaper somewhere else. Some people are willing to pay the current inflated prices. At least I'll have more cash on hand when or if this stupidity ends, not that I have much disposable cash since going back to college 6 years after retiring.

 

[Browning]

Tell me what that AK is worth? Name a price that is fundamental and non changing. Then we can compare what they are going for now and call it gouging.

Whoever said anything about a price that doesn't change?

C'mon. Regardless of what some of you may think I do understand the laws of supply and demand, I just don't dig on hypocrites.

Making a profit is one thing, sticking it in a breaking it off is another.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

So you sold two AK's, one of which was an AMD-65 for $1,100 (twice what they were going for a couple months ago).

You telling me that this has nothing to do with your argument that there's nothing immoral about price gouging?

And yet I sleep soundly every night. So first off, yes I sold two AKs, which I already pointed out in this thread. Secondly, I lowered the price for a buyer who seemed like a reasonable person. I also paid out of pocket for this to be a transfer through an FFL (although not required by VA law) so that both myself and the buyer would know the deal was on the up and up and that the gun would not end up in the wrong hands. Both of my buyers have since contacted me saying they are very happy with the purchase and I have been able to provide them answers to follow up questions about the platforms etc so they could get the most from the rifles. So I think lumping me in some sort of category of immoral person is pretty petty of you.

A few months ago, it's true the rifle sold for about a third of what I sold it for but it didn't come with hundreds of round of ammo and magazines. Other sellers were selling the AKs alone for more than my asking price with everything included. So I charged a fair price in the current market and the buyers were both happy with their purchase.

So what I don't understand about your moral argument, is how a transaction with both parties very happy with the arrangement is immoral? Does that mean that everything should be sold at the price you're willing to pay? That's both mighty convenient for you and I dare say rather self-centered. Alas the universe does not revolve around you or anyone, so prices are determined by what they are worth to both the buyer and the seller.

Would I have sold my AKs if they were selling before an AWB was possible? No. Why would I? I bought them for that price because they were worth that amount of money to me. After there was a possible AWB, people decided those rifles were worth buying and buying at a price I never would have been willing to pay. So thus, the rifles were now worth more to other people than they were to me. So what's immoral about me selling them off to someone who values them more and will get greater utility from them than I ever did?

That's simple economics and it tends to work quite well. I worked with my buyers to ensure we were both happy with the deal. I also went out of my way to ensure that the rifles went to trustworthy gun owners (even though I could have gotten more for them by just selling them no questions asked). So I'm very glad I sold them because both I, the seller, and the buyers ended up happier for it.

C'mon. Regardless of what some of you may think I do understand the laws of supply and demand, I just don't dig on hypocrites.

Making a profit is one thing, sticking it in a breaking it off is another.

But you so clearly don't understand it at all, I'm afraid. Can you guarantee me that there won't be an AWB this year, next year, in five years? What price should I have sold them for? I couldn't come near to replacing them for the price I sold them and there's no guarantee I'll be able to replace them at all in the future. If a buyer and a seller agree on a price, then there's no gouging....that is simply the agreed upon value of the product. I guess it was so immoral of me to understand that I was able to buy my rifles when I knew prices were low and god forbid I should make any sort of profit apparently.

 

[BK]

Any one wish to spend $30.00 for a gal. of milk, or $20.00 bucks for a doz eggs.

Absolutely I would!!!

If there were otherwise no milk or eggs to be found, nothing that would substitute and no way to pruduce or acquire any, I would be delighted to procure the needed items at whatever cost I could. I'd much rather have access to shelves filled with $30 gallons of milk than to be subjected to empty shelves. The availability of the item while expensive gives me the freedom to decide if I'm going to drink milk or not. If the shelves are bare, I don't enjoy that freedom. I have no choice but to go without.

 

[jcwit]

I'm sure glad few here are not in the retail industry, we'd all be on food stamps.

By Golly they sure got there's tho!

Not that I care.

 

[coolluke01]

I am in the retail industry!

 

[hogshead]

Price gouging is a pejorative term referring to a situation in which a seller prices goods or commodities much higher than is considered reasonable or fair. This rapid increase in prices occurs after a demand or supply shock: examples include price increases after hurricanes or other natural disasters. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a crime that applies in some of the United States during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. In the Soviet Union, it was simply included under the single definition of speculation.

The term is similar to profiteering but can be distinguished by being short-term and localized, and by a restriction to essentials such as food, clothing, shelter, medicine and equipment needed to preserve life, limb and property



There you go. Needed to preserve life limb and property. You do not need a pmag to do that. It is not gouging it is fools doing what they do best. A fool and his money will soon be separated applies here I think.

 

[X-JaVeN-X]

What's with all the upset people calling raised gun prices "gouging"? That's simple market based pricing. There's nothing bad about it. I'm sorry that it's more than you want to pay. Boo hoo. The United States still ostensibly operates based on a free market economy. The price for anything, including guns, is based on the free agreement between buyer and seller. The seller will charge as much as he can, and the buyer will pay as little as he can. If those two prices meet somewhere, a sale is made. If they don't, no sale. It's pretty simple.

The demand for guns and ammo has gone up. That means everything from the demand for materials to produce them, to the amount of shipping of materials and completed guns, to increased sales staff in stores, and everything in between has gone up to. Those things need to be paid for. And then there is the simple fact that any business exists to make a profit. Produce item for price X and sell item for price Y. The difference between the two prices is how the business owner feeds his family and makes sure he has another truckload of guns coming next week for you to buy. Stop whining that you're on the "negative" end of market forces this time.

Ever bought something on sale? Market forces.
Ever bought something in bulk for a lower price? Market forces.
Ever bought something used for a lower prices? Market forces.
Ever bought something online that was cheaper than in a store? Market forces.
Ever tried selling something yourself? Did you sell it for $10 when you could have sold it for $200? Market forces.

Did you feel bad that you were "gouging" the other side by paying less than you might have elsewhere, or that you got as much as you could for that thing you sold at a yard sale/craigslist/Gunbroker/etc? I bet you didn't. Because you were the one benefiting from the market at that point. So why are you whining now?

When you bought something on sale, or used, or in bulk, etc, you paid a lower price because the value of those items was lower. That's the way the market works. Say a brand new gun costs $500. Would you buy the same gun from me for $500 after I've used it for a few years and shot a few thousand rounds through it? No? Why not? Because you wouldn't see the value as being as high as if it were new. I could try setting the price at $500, but you wouldn't take it until I lowered it to a price you're comfortable with. Remember, the price for something in a free market is where the lowest price the seller is willing to sell for and the highest price the buyer is willing to buy for meet. You wouldn't buy that used gun for $500 and I won't sell it for $100. But I'll keep lowering my price until we find one we agree on. If it's too low for me, I won't sell. If it's too high for you, you won't buy.

So why are PMAGs going for $50-75+? Why have certain ammo calibers doubled in price? Why are certain guns going for a few hundred above the price a few months ago? Is it because that mean old gun store owner is trying to "gouge" you while you're down? Of course not. Stop being childish. It's because people are willing to pay it. If no one paid $75 for a PMAG, the price would drop to $70. If no one paid $70, the price would drop to $65, and so on and so on. Until it got to a price that both the seller and buyer are ok with. No more, no less.

If you've ever bought something on sale, or bought something used for a lower price, etc, you need to stop whining about "gouging" right now. It's hypocritical and ignorant. The price is whatever two people agree on. Right now people are agreeing on prices that are higher than what they agreed on a few months ago. Suck it up and pay..........or don't. That's your choice in a free market too. And believe me, you don't really want the alternative.

Here's the problem with your argument....the free market works both ways. Yes, the market dictates the price, but guess what...that market has two sides...people that think it's not too expensive, and people that think it is too much (the people calling it gouging). They have just as much right to voice their opinion in this "FREE" market as anyone else saying that it's not. You can't have one side without the other. If anyone wants to call it gouging...they have every right to do so as well as every right to not shop there and to voice their opinion about it....you trying to tell them they shouldn't do that is much more offensive to me than someone yelling store xyz is price gouging.

 

[Ignition Override]

Ragnar: to illustrate one of your comments, a good buddy wanted to escape the command economy and little freedom or opportunity in East Germany.

He risked a few shots which were fired at him as he escaped into Czecho. (then Hungary etc), several years Before the Wall came down.

M. understood the benefits of the free market and the wider variety of choices, or at least the vast improvement over a socialist, command economy.

 

[captain awesome]

Any one who doesn't think something wrong as a whole is going on here is a moron. I have no desire to sell any of my stock, I WAS wise enough to buy what I needed before all this happened, and I am pretty comfortable with what I have. So then tell me why I am upset?
If you don't think you need an AR15 specifically to live then fine, but think about it critically here. Guns are a means to defend ourselves, and no one here will dispute that. Sometimes, some people have to defend themselves to live. What do they have to defend themselves with? GUNS. What would be the best gun to defend yourself from multiple assailants? perhaps soldiers? An AR15 or some other similar rifle is most peoples first choice. So we can conclude that yes, in some circumstances, you DO need a gun to live, perhaps even an AR15.
Now with all that in mind, these panic buyers are buying what they feel is necessary to ensure their lives and/or freedom in the future, or at the very least give them a fighting chance. They recognize the need. And mark my words, when people are talking about banning weapons, that is when you need to have them the most. Buying these items at the higher than normal prices at this point in time is done because they feel they must. Willingness has NOTHING to do with it. They feel forced. Jacking up prices in this situation is gouging.
Now, don't tell me I know nothing of economics, I took many economics classes in college, and run my own business. I am not angry with the sellers for following the laws of supply and demand. They may or may not have a choice in how they price their goods depending on how they run their business. I know for a fact that a couple certain manufactures of the highly sought after items have NOT raised their price. It may not COST more to replace those items in their inventory, but there may not be any available to them. Their income effectively ceases once they are sold out. So in that regard, some of them may not have a choice but to charge more and save the extra profits, if they cannot procure more inventory fast enough. It is still gouging, but it is in some circumstances; necessary gouging.
So no, I am not angry with the sellers, who I am really angry with is the antis, and the government for causing this to happen to our fellow second amendment supporters/shooting community. It should never have been an issue in the first place and they are to blame.

 

[Browning]

I am in the retail industry!

So once again...like I said in the beginning, it's ironic how personal circumstances dictate morals.

That's why it's funny that you and AA are arguing that it's oh so moral. You're both lining your pockets.

 

[john wall]

Question: What do a 'gouger' and a 'hoarder' have in common?

Answer: They are names that those who got caught unprepared call those who did not.

 

[bsheets20061]

Personally I don't call it gouging I have been selling due to the current market and I have plenty. I always have told myself not to sell something lower than I could purchase a replacement for if needed so that's what I do.

It is an inflated market but no different than any other instance low stock + greater demand = higher prices

high stock + lesser demand = lower prices

My local ffl dealers have been buying off me to keep stock in their shops they are paying slightly more to keep stock but they also sell out quickly.

the market dictates itself once people stop buying the market will go down on its own, but I don't fault anyone for selling at a price that people will pay.

 

[Alaska444]

The free market is free. This market is being influenced by our hyperactive government. There is plenty of reason to be pissed off.

Otherwise, yes, the market sets the price and I'm fine with that.

Hopefully they will fall again if this stuff blows away. Hopefully that is the way it will go. With these folks in office, I don't trust them as far as the hulk could throw them.

I don't have any yet, but I was considering saving up to get one. That is gone for now with double and triple prices. Supply and demand is the answer.

 

[captain awesome]

On a side note, those people that bought your AK's will no doubt have buyers remorse when the prices drop after an AWB doesn't happen. So they will not be happy for long. More private sellers should consider this before selling. If it doesn't bother them, more power to them. It would bother me though if I were in their shoes.

 

[BP44]

I have a sneaking suspicion if I was to offer up several AR's or hi cap mags for $600 a rifle or $12 a pmag the "complainers" non prepared would jump all over them...... If this hobby,lifestyle, constitutional right is one your interested in don't be a late to the party and demand front row seats I welcome new shooters, hunters, and gun owners with open arms but please stop crying about how you are not prepared. We have dealt with these events in the past and learned from them, I ask you do the same.

If your crying about overpriced mags many you should have bought them, if you sniveling about AR/ak prices then maby you should have bought them. And $ is not an excuse for the majority of America, sell of a video game and stop buying Dutch brothers coffee and apply your $ towards your true/new passion.

 

[coloradokevin]

The current situation is gouging. We're looking at a temporary supply shortage, which is certainly in part being caused by the guys who go into the stores, buy their entire supply, and then repost the items online for a 5x-10x mark-up.

Also, this is hardly a "free market" at the moment. The market is being controlled by the imminent threat of legislation, by a government who is trying to ensure that the market for these products ends up being anything but free.

For my part of it, I won't pay the ridiculously inflated prices that some of these stores are charging. I don't NEED any of this stuff, though I have placed a couple of backorders for things I WANT, at prices that match what the products were selling for in December.

Several local and online stores have started gouging their customers on the basis of this temporary supply shortage. I know quite a few shooters (myself included) who won't be patronizing these stores once things return to normal.

To me, it would be a different situation if a ban is put into place. At that point you're no longer looking at a short-term supply shortage, but a permanent reduction in supply.

Some of you may not like my feelings on this subject, but I'll spend my dollars how, when, and where I choose.

 

[Browning]

I have a sneaking suspicion if I was to offer up several AR's or hi cap mags for $600 a rifle or $12 a pmag the "complainers" non prepared would jump all over them...... If this hobby,lifestyle, constitutional right is one your interested in don't be a late to the party and demand front row seats I welcome new shooters, hunters, and gun owners with open arms but please stop crying about how you are not prepared. We have dealt with these events in the past and learned from them, I ask you do the same.

If your crying about overpriced mags many you should have bought them, if you sniveling about AR/ak prices then maby you should have bought them. And $ is not an excuse for the majority of America, sell of a video game and stop buying Dutch brothers coffee and apply your $ towards your true/new passion.

Actually I have all the AR, AK and pistol mags I'll ever need. I'm betting that I probably have more than you do.

Just don't dig on people that try to rationalize what they're doing as okay when it's not.

Ripping a guy off is ripping him off. Call it what you will or throw in some excuses about economics, how you're providing a service or whatever, but you're not going to sell me on your excuses. :Shrug

If some of the people were more honest about what they were doing I'd have more respect for them, but they aren't so I think them hypocrites.

It's more like some of the sellers in this thread are sniveling about ripping somebody off after the fact and trying to pass it off as helping them out. Really pathetic actually.

 

[BP44]

I'm betting you dont

Like I stated before this is a new style, the new "thing" if you will for a bunch of people. I have been collecting, hoarding, and more importantly shooting for a long time. This type of thing is a cycle and it seems to repeat every decade or so.

It's really a simple thing, if gas went up in price because demand increased........... I think you under stand.

If I was to sell a magazine for $25 and I bought it for $7 15yrs ago would that be considered gouging? (Inflation) Same principal, even more so if you "have enough" and don't have a dog in the fight.

And simply put MR. Browning I don't take kindly to you spouting off, as big as you might be in
Texas words carry weight around my area. I don't really care what "you dig on" as a free market is a free market. If I was to sell a half box of milsurp 20rnd mags for $50 I would be called a saint but on the other hand I have kept them clean and in my safe for years. We both know rent isn't free.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Why does an autographed record from Elvis cost more than a few bucks? Why do rare baseball cards sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars? Why would Patton's engraved SAA sell for a lot more than just a regular used SAA?

Because the buyer values it more and is willing to pay more. If you don't understand that basic principle, I don't know what to say.


I encourage anyone to give their answer to this question:
What is the "correct" price of 1 PMAG, and why is that the "correct" price?

Answer that, and you'll be able to demonstrate why them costing $75 today is wrong. Let's hear the answers. I've already explained why any price from $.01 to $1,000,00 and beyond is correct as long as you have someone willing to sell for that much and someone willing to buy. If you feel there are prices within that range that are too much, tell us all what the correct price is and why.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Well, I can see that some people just don't understand it and I'm not going to waste any more effort trying to explain the simple facts to people. If you want to think I gouged someone, I really don't care. I tried hard to come up with a fair price in the market today (not the market of a few months ago) and to ensure my buyers were happy with the deal.

Maybe the buyers will have buyers remorse because an AWB won't pass and they could have purchased cheaper if they waited. It's not my job to make them do something they won't regret. That's frankly their own responsibility. Before I decided to sell, I thought long and hard about if I would regret selling my rifles. These were the first rifles I've ever sold and I tried to think if I'd be kicking myself if I sold and an AWB was passed and I was never able to replace them. When I thought on it, I realized I didn't use them much and I wouldn't regret not having them if they were banned. I'm sure my buyers had a very different conclusion and decided it was worth it for them to buy now even though supplies were low and the market price was high. That's their decision and as adults, I don't think it's my right or responsibility to babysit them or second guess their choice.

Would I have bought in today's market? Heck no, but I don't assume everyone is like me with the same priorities. Browning, you can judge all you want to...but the simple fact of the matter is that buyers value the rifles at more than they were valued a few months ago (and whatever the reasons the market has substantially changed in a few months). It's easy for you to say they're worth x when you've got them stockpiled already, but to buyers that didn't think ahead, those rifles are worth every penny they're paying.

So I'm going to enjoy my profit, because like any good capitalist, I thought ahead and bought when things were cheap (and an investment of that size is not easy for a grad student to come up with). When the market valued them higher than I did, I sold. That is simply sound financial practice and is not in any way immoral (I didn't force anyone to buy anything). So you guys can keep riding your high horses and feeling all sanctimonious but I'm glad I sold and there is nothing immoral what so ever in meeting a supply demand. I for one will not be embarrassed to have conducted some successful business that will help expand my shooting interests and finance my education.

If nothing else, Ragnar, I'm right there with you. Awesome name by the way (and I had to laugh at the San Frann Arbor having done a summer course there).

 

[BigN]

"Never let a good tragedy go to waste." That's the liberal motto. The gun/ammo sellers (some) are using that to their advantage also by artificially inflating the prices. It's so obvious to all but the blind that there's really no need for this discussion.

 

[docsleepy]

Thomas Sowell's book "Basic Economics" forever Changed my economic thinking. I finally began to understand free markets. He explains that price controls turn scarcity into shortage. Scarcity, which always exists, means that there is never enough of anything to go around. Not even water. But shortage is when you cannot get it at any price whatsoever. When prices are allowed to fluctuate there will always be product available, if you're willing to pay enough.

He gave several examples of price controls gone awry. Apartments in New York City were price controlled, so their prices were limited, and wealthy people could via multiple apartments knocked the walls out and have a huge home . Meanwhile newt
Married couples, who previously would've been able to purchase an apartment, albeit at a higher price, absolutely found not one in which to live. So they stayed with your parents.

A few years back, in Florida, we had hurricane knocked out my power for a week. The fact that Generator prices could go upwards, brought all kinds of people to the state, bringing generators in the back of their pickup trucks. That made product available. Had price controls been in effect, we would not of had that supply. So thank the increase prices for other supply.