"Stopping" Hits

[Shawnee]

I know current military and police thinking places a lot of emphasis on "CNS" (central nervous system) hits and CNS hits are certainly effective without question. But I'll toss out the following for whatever experiences, opinions, or comments anyone wants to offer...

I think there is some reason to consider hits in the lower torse (pelvic region) as potentially very effective.

* I remember reading of an incident in Houston, circa 1980s, in which a woman shot a 300+ lb. attacker (once) in the groin (between navel and pubic bone) with a .25 caliber pistol and the guy supposedly doubled over and died within a couple minutes.

* A LEO in San Antonio told me of responding to a robbery call at a convenience store and hearing a shot as he got out of his car. Almost immediately he discovered the owner had shot the robber with a .38 Special, the bullet smashing the guy's hip. The guy had gone down immediately, was shrieking in pain, and died before the ambulance could arrive.

* I know of one case and read of another where someone tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the chest with a .44 Magnum and both survived even though neither received any medical attention for at least a half hour. (They didn't spend that 30 minutes ballroom dancing, of course)

* Abdominal wounds during the Civil War were purportedly the most commonly fatal wounds received (though that quite probably was influenced a lot by the primitive state of medical care, circa 1860s).

* Any abdominal distress - food poisoning, "stomach flu", abdominal punctures, severe hernias and even abdominal surgeries, etc. - are incredibly painful and debilitating.

* Two ER nurses I know tell me...

* The opening of femoral arteries is one of the very quickest ways to bleed to death, or to unconsciousness, there is.

* Any substantial break anywhere in the pelvic structure is the end of standing/moving and usually reported as incredibly painful.

* Any even modest puncture of a kidney is debilitating immediately, or within a very few seconds.

As it has been throughout History - outlaws faced with more effective police methods work at coming up with innovative ways to defeat the threat of police - witness the increasing use by Ne'er-do-wells of Kevlar, etc. that protect a lot of their central nervous system.

So it seems the conventional thinking of major emphasis on trying to score CNS hits may need some more thought. Maybe, for less-practiced gun handlers, the abdominal/pelvic region (including upper thighs) is worthy of more serious consideration as a "preferred target".

And, if that were true - maybe the shotgun (or shot pistol) loaded with something like #1 Buck or maybe #2 birdshot becomes, for many, a more valuable tool of defense than the traditional handgun.

All thoughts, opinions, experiences, superstitions welcome.

 

[oklahoma caveman]

well i know a shot in the crotch would sure enough dabilitate me.
i heard of a guy who was killed last year by his ex girlfriend. she shot him in the leg, the crotch and the lower stomach with a 22 pistol. he bled to death rather quickly

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I wasn't aware of police or military putting a lot of emphasis on CNS shots. The put emphasis on COM shots (except maybe snipers).

Since all opinions are welcome, I think there is some reason NOT to consider lower torso hits unless COM hasn't worked and you can't make a good head shot.

* I remember reading of an incident in Houston, circa 1980s, in which a woman shot a 300+ lb. attacker (once) in the groin (between navel and pubic bone) with a .25 caliber pistol and the guy supposedly doubled over and died within a couple minutes.

This only happened if a major blood vessel was hit and if so, it took more than a couple of minutes. It could be that the guy just had a heart attack. Either way, it was a fortuitous hit.

* A LEO in San Antonio told me of responding to a robbery call at a convenience store and hearing a shot as he got out of his car. Almost immediately he discovered the owner had shot the robber with a .38 Special, the bullet smashing the guy's hip. The guy had gone down immediately, was shrieking in pain, and died before the ambulance could arrive.

People claim hip breaking shots, but more often than not, they are not hip breaking, especially with pistol ammo. The largest bone of the hip is the ilium and much of it is not locomotor load bearing. It just forms to bowl for the lower abdomen organs. You can break off a big chunk and still not incapacitate locomotion.

FYI, lots of guys scream and writh in pain when shot, even when it isn't in the lower abdomen.

* I know of one case and read of another where someone tried to commit suicide by shooting themselves in the chest with a .44 Magnum and both survived even though neither received any medical attention for at least a half hour. (They didn't spend that 30 minutes ballroom dancing, of course)

The fact that an upper torso shot didn't immediately kill a person does not mean that a lower torso hit is better.

*Abdominal wounds during the Civil War were purportedly the most commonly fatal wounds received (though that quite probably was influenced a lot by the primitive state of medical care, circa 1860s).

Lot's of penetrating wounds in the Civil War were lethal, but not immediately. Abdominal wounds were especially nasty because of opening the gut, but otherwise dirt and clothing carried in by the minnie balls would result in infection, sepsis, and often led to death. Note that death was not instant and the injuries did not necessarily produce immediate stops. You can also read plenty of accounts of guys shot who kept fighting, but who died later.

* Any abdominal distress - food poisoning, "stomach flu", abdominal punctures, severe hernias and even abdominal surgeries, etc. - are incredibly painful and debilitating.

No, they are not necessarily debilitating.
This guy shot himself in the hip before fleeing with goodies and getting himself to a hospital...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=7&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

I have seen other security vids of gut shot robbers taking flight just fine, some shooting back. I would not call gut shots any more debilitating than chest shots.

* Two ER nurses I know tell me...

* The opening of femoral arteries is one of the very quickest ways to bleed to death, or to unconsciousness, there is.

Sure, but you can't aim for the femoral artery because you can't see it.

* Any substantial break anywhere in the pelvic structure is the end of standing/moving and usually reported as incredibly painful.

Yes, substantial breaks are painful, but the largest bone of the pelvis is the ilium and it is mostly the blade. Bullets can punch right through the blade without there being a substantial break.

* Any even modest puncture of a kidney is debilitating immediately, or within a very few seconds.

How would a nurse know this?

And, if that were true - maybe the shotgun (or shot pistol) loaded with something like #1 Buck or maybe #2 birdshot becomes, for many, a more valuable tool of defense than the traditional handgun.

Ya think? The problem is, you can't carry a shotgun concealed.

 

[Timthinker]

Let me share my views on firearms and stopping power. When I hear that term, I think of instantaneous stopping power. Why? The purpose of deadly force, which obviously includes the use of a firearm, is to terminate a threat as quickly as possible. If this is not true, then why was deadly force used? The best way to accomplish this is with a hit to the brain or spine, a CNS shot. Now, other wounds may stop someone instantly or they may not based upon a variety of variables. This topic was discussed yesterday in a thread I started on handgun effectiveness against bodybuilders/strength trainers. The problem with a pelvic shot is an armed assailant may continue to shoot others despite the pain or ultimate fatality resulting from that wound. This is a possibility that needs to be considered.

I do not want to appear bloodthirsty. I do not desire the death of anyone, but I do believe some actions are so criminally dangerous that they justify the use of deadly force. Police forces worldwide agree with this position.

Do I believe the accounts posted here? Yes. The late gun guru Jeff Cooper once stated that he knew of a one-shot torso shot with a .22 Short round that achieved immediate stopping power. But that is an exception to the rule. Yes, a pelvic shot is painful and potentially deadly, but it may not stop a homicidal maniac quickly. This is my considered opinion on the matter.


Timthinker

 

[Shawnee]

Again, Gents... "All thoughts, opinions, experiences, superstitions welcome."

 

[Jayb]

Any pelvic fracture that causes swelling, or allows any independent movement of normally intact bone is extremely painful. There are 15+ arteries attached to, in very close proximity to, or pass through the pelvis. If a fracture or impalement, or bullet wound should rupture any of those arteries, bleeding would be profuse, and not always readily diagnosed. In a defensive situation, I would still rely on a center mass shot, regardless of what mass was presented to me.

 

[Archie]

Self Defense is not a science.

That is to say, one cannot routinely dial in the numbers and crank out an answer.

From all the study and debriefing I've done, the surest stop (rendering the attacker incapable of continuing a deadly attack) is a CNS hit (including a solid brain stem hit). Second best is a massive trauma to the upper chest region.

However, some days, life just isn't convenient and those approaches are not available. So one gets in any lick one can get.

Hunting large dangerous bear, the SOP is for the first shot to cripple the bear's front legs so he (she) can't attack and kill the hunter while the bear is dying. I think there may be merit in that approach when dealing with a human attacker. There are several recorded incidents of villians being shot in the ankles under a car, when no other shot was available. That doesn't always finish the matter, but it's a great start.

I would think if one recognizes body hits are ineffective due to a vest or anthesthesia of some form, why not try a pelvic shot? At this point there's something to loose? The prospect of breaking the femur is encouraging. Even if the assailant feels no pain, one cannot walk or run on a broken femur. If nothing else, one can retreat to await backup.

 

[CypherNinja]

Note that death was not instant and the injuries did not necessarily produce immediate stops. You can also read plenty of accounts of guys shot who kept fighting, but who died later.

There are also accounts of Civil War soldiers entering their death into their diaries.

"I died today."

 

[Dragonboy]

here's my philosiphy.

aim at center of mass, pull trigger, repeat.

in combat, you're better off aiming a center of mass than trying to hit a specific organ, because when the adrenaline is flowing, you're not going to remember where any of them are anyhow.

 

[Gator]

aim at center of mass, pull trigger, repeat.

That's what my military experience taught me. I think the only types that might try CNS shots are snipers, and and maybe some elite troops, in hostage rescue situations. Really, the important thing is to hit him, putting one in his medulla oblongata is seldom necessary.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Testiclicide!

Testiclicide - the killing of a testicle (my imaginary word for the day)

Let's see, this guy shot off his own right testicle, which I am sure was very damn painful, and also managed a double in that the bullet also apparently entered his lower leg.

Was he stopped? Nope. The robbery was over and he went home...where authorities found him later.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331469

 

[Neophyte1]

testicle

Double Naught Spy: I'll not be able to sleep tonight
He went home with one DEAD TESTICLE
Now what were his plans with one dead testicle

 

[Steel Talon]

I haven’t waded through all posts, my apology if I'm redundant

A pelvic girdle shot is a nasty bit of bidness but very effective.. Definitely will put a zombie horizontal quickly, however it wont necessarily take one out of the fight immediately they can still operate their booger hook from their now found grounded position. But it will put their azz down and allows shock to set up shop rather quickly. Think of it as hunting Elk size game shoot high up on the shoulder to "anchor" the animal in place then follow up with a lights outs shot

Femoral bleed out is very rapid and when clipped it retracts back into the body and is hard to get too for blood flow stop. In Zombie Silat the groin is a prime targeting area for a knife poke or slash. Plus not to mention the psychological effect one gets over the possibility of loosing little Benni and the Jets.

A bullet traveling through the girdle hits ball sockets, the tail bone, arteries, the boys plus what ever is in your colon has now been spewed inside your body.

COM has a high degree of success in dropping a zombie but again it doesn’t necessarily take them out of the fight. COM offers a greater area to hit something vital.

However the #1 Zombie shot placement is high up on the brachial tree. Placement from the top of the breastbone straight up to the eyebrow line will drop and take them out of the fight.

Peace
Steel Talon

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Yep, you didn't read.

A bullet traveling through the girdle hits ball sockets, the tail bone, arteries, the boys plus what ever is in your colon has now been spewed inside your body.

Magic bullets shoot you, Jedi? I have yet to see a person aim for ball sockets, much less hit both in one shot along with the tail bone, colon, and boys. Maybe you be shooting boomerrang bullets that hit you and just keep circling inside the body until they hit all the vital structures?

How do you aim for the femoral artery? Hell, why not just aim for the femoral neck...less bone, easier to break and hence easier to cripple the guy, right, but how do you aim for it?

If you can aim those shots, then you can put a bullet through the bad guy's left eye, right if you are south paw, and do it much easier (you can actually see the eyes) and produce a good CNS stop with minimal bone involvement.

 

[Steel Talon]

Hi Naught,

then you can put a bullet through the bad guy's left eye, right if you are south paw, and do it much easier (you can actually see the eyes) and produce a good CNS stop with minimal bone involvement.
[

Yes, equally with either hand...

I like bone involvement....

I like heavy Ball also....

As for the pelvic girdle..... Basically I left out the word "CAN" hit (sans s) I could of also said hips. Still, I stand by what I say and know to be true.

Call it Jedi magic or not, a bullets path is just that. A strike into the pelvic girdle will put a zombie down wether it hits one of, or a combination of.....

However, best zombie stop, is high up on the brachial tree.

Peace and Good Karma!

Steel Talon

 

[Soybomb]

I don't particularly like anecdotes for things like this. Lets look at the actual medical point of view from a doctor.

Dr. Fackler of course is an authority on this with the proper credentials to talk about it:

“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.

-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.

-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers.

Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”

So there you have it, a couple stories, the advice of a nurse, and some sort of odd logic based on civil war medicine saying its a good idea and a trauma surgeon and one of the biggest names in terminal ballistics saying it isn't and explaining why as a doctor. You decide

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Thank you Soybomb.

As for the pelvic girdle..... Basically I left out the word "CAN" hit (sans s) I could of also said hips. Still, I stand by what I say and know to be true.

While it "can" happen, it isn't likely to happen. It "can" happen that a person dies from a non-lethal shot to the arm that would have been survived had the victim not gone into shock. It can happen, has happened, but isn't a result to expect to happen.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Soybomb...

Interesting stuff to be sure, Soybomb !! Thanks for sharing it !

Though I have no idea who "Dr. Fackler" is or what his/her status as a Dr. is, he/she sure sounds knowledgable.

Did he/she happen to offer an opinion on where to aim if the assailant is wearing a bullet-proof vest ?

That's the specific situation that, to me, might make it a reasonable idea to reconsider going for "COM" and/or "CNS" targets.

 

[Soybomb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler for a brief fackler bio, he is pretty much the father of modern wound ballistics. His work is the basis for what most leo groups are carrying and why ammo companies are producing bullets that perform as they do.

I'm not the tactical guy to ask about body armor clad people but my understanding is the usual failure to stop scenario people practice is a pair to the chest, assessment, then 1 to the head if the threat remains.

We know that a shot to the testicle won't do it http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331469

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Soybomb, see Testiclicide in post 11

You know Shawnee, Bat Masterson was shot in the pelvis and returned fire after being shot, his shooting resulting in the death of his attacker.
http://sd.essortment.com/batmastersont_rzfm.htm

This guy was shot in the groin AND upper leg and still managed to go two blocks. http://misterpissed.blogspot.com/2008/01/man-21-shot-in-groin-leg-trying-to.html

This guy was shot in the "side" and it turned out he was shot in the groin, but after being wounded, still engaged in a running gun battle, running on rooves.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9803E6D7143CE433A25750C1A9669D94699ED7CF

The anecdote game is fun, but a difficult one for finding definitive conclusions.

 

[easyg]

I'm a radiographer at a hospital and I can tell you for certain that a hip fracture will not necessarily drop someone.

I have X-rayed more than one person who had a pelvic fracture yet they drove themselves to the hospital and walked in to the ER under their own power.

And while it is true that shooting someone in the femoral artery will cause them to eventually bleed to death, shooting them in the heart will obtain the same results....and the heart is a larger target than a femoral artery.

Unless the target is wearing a vest, I can't see any good reason to aim for the pelvis.

 

[chihuahuatn]

http://www.tacticalforums.com

under "The Terminal Effects Forum"

 

[bikerdoc]

food for thought- john connor said "you dont stop shooting when you think he is dead, you shoot until he thinks he is dead"

as for caliber- shot placement is everything, the old do you want to be shot in the head with a 22 thing

i have no answers just putting this out there

 

[mljdeckard]

Ayoob did an article a while ago, mentioning that the pelvic girdle is probably the best place for a secondary shot, if the center of mass or head isn't exposed. If you hit any bone in the pelvic girdle, the person will take no more than one step and fall over.

 

[Steel Talon]

Ayoob did an article a while ago, mentioning that the pelvic girdle is probably the best place for a secondary shot, if the center of mass or head isn't exposed. If you hit any bone in the pelvic girdle, the person will take no more than one step and fall over.

+1