(OH) Officer Could Be Charged For Killing Alleged Burglar (15 shots/14 hits)

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Officer Could Be Charged For Killing Alleged Burglar
Policeman Fired 15 Shots At Suspect, Officials Say

POSTED: 6:42 p.m. EST February 24, 2003

CLEVELAND -- Charges could be filed against a Cleveland police officer accused of shooting and killing an alleged burglar while off duty.

NewsChannel5 reported that the incident happened in front of Officer James Toomey's home last June.

Prosecutors said Joseph Finley Jr. first attacked Toomey.

Chief Assistant Prosecutor Sanford Watson said that while the shooting was justified, a grand jury should be called in to determine whether Toomey used excessive force.

"Officer Toomey fired 15 shots from his gun; 14 wounds (were) sustained," Watson said. "We believe that was excessive."

The Cleveland Patrolmans' Union said it's disappointed with the ruling and that Toomey fired his gun in self-defense.

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2001270/detail.html

now, if that was 14 hits COM, maybe it was excessive, but how many of the hits were actually debilitating?
 
now, if that was 14 hits COM, maybe it was excessive, but how many of the hits were actually debilitating?
Click to expand...

Even if it was 14 hits COM, it might not be excessive. There are several documented shootings with 155gr 40S&W rounds that took more than 11 rounds to put the BG down -- all COM. If the officer feared for his life, then he should be cleared of the shooting.

And let us not forget who started the whole thing in the first place. If the burglar hadn't been burgling, he would be alive right now.

Punish the criminals, not police officers and law-abiding citizens. :barf:
 
tetch, but what if the police officer is a criminal? What then?

This is why we have grand juries. Problem #2 never goes away despite our "best intentions" or ignorance of it.

Anyone in Ohio know if this is a bluff/trap for the copper? Can the PA still file if g.j. no bills??? Mike?
 
Sounds silly to me, how can you have excessive lethal force?
If the guy wasn't down or stopped, then the shooting can continue, that is how cops are trained.
If the burglar was down, then the cop is in big trouble.

Damn good shooting BTW.
 
:fire:

I think that the prosecuters office should be made to take a little field trip to "x" (Clevelanders help me out here) area of town at 10:00 on a Friday night. We'll make it a 6 hour trip just to make things interesting. Oh and they have to be dressed in their usual court attire. Any police that happen by during their stay in the area are only allowed to fire 1 shot in their defense if the officer thinks that it is justified.

OTOH I must congratulate Officer Toomey on his 93.3333% hit ratio. Either it was at contact range or he is one of the good ones that actually practices on a regular basis. :D Would the @#%$* prosecuters be happier if he fired 15 shots and only hit with 2?

We need to bring back tar and feathering and running someone out of town on a rail.

Greg
 
Greg, in some jurisdictions case law holds that if more than one shot is fired then the trial court, upon its discretion, may withhold the self-defense jury instruction. Darn that Problem #2--they don't mention this in the gun shoppe!

BTW, what makes you think that prosecutors do not carry?:confused:

Delta, just because you learned from your baron in knight skul to keep whacking the serf, does not mean the marquis will agree that you are following the king's command. Just following orders may or may not work.
 
If the guy was down, yeah, he might have a problem with this. At close range, though, this may represent just a few seconds of shooting. If he was upright, and the first shot was justified, it is unlikely I'd be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the last shot wasn't justified.
 
It does where I am El Tejon.
We had an officer shoot a guy 13 times before the guy went down.
Never went to a Grand Jury, the DA was at the scene, as they do on all Homicides in my area and there was nothing for the legal system to address.
The family wanted to file a civil suit, but couldn't find an attorney to take it. Seems even that a guy shooting at people that gets shot 13 times by the po-po doesn't have much jury appeal. :D
I really feel sorry for everyone that lives in the states that prosecute any citizen for a self defense shooting. It's a real shame.

BTW, the officer hit him 13 out of 15 shots as the bad guy was moving towards more potential victims.
Damn good shooting.
 
Damn good shooting, in particular..for Cleveland. The g.j. issue brings up a whole nother bag of poo, in theory I think a g.j. should be convened for this.. but.... As I understand it they are put together by appointment, and that is bad...bad...:barf:
 
BTW, what makes you think that prosecutors do not carry?
Click to expand...

In Ohio?!? If they do then it really does get into the us/them argument.

(Although I must admit the scenario I gave would be a perfect example of Ohio's affirmative defense law :D )

Greg
 
Why would you think that Buckeye (or any other) prosecutors would not carry? Are they not LEOs? Is not the Buckeye PA the CLEO of each county? "Us/them", is not the PA the marquis to our serfdom?

Delta, your marquis apparently made a point to understand what happened. Good for your parish.

It does not happen like that everywhere or every time where you are. Of course, the tilecrawler cry "it depends" holds here. Another marquis, another witness, another . . . it depends. For some reason I hear "that can't happen to me [or here] a lot".:D
 
Shoot until the threat is ended. If this guy was on the ground bleeding out and begging for mercy when the cop put the last 10 rounds into him, he's got some serious trouble.

If the cop was pulling the trigger until the bad guy dropped from his sight picture, well, that's what I'd do.

- Gabe
 
If training doctrine in the officer's department is DT or more rounds COM that doctrine will be made evident to the GJ. As long as the BG didn't take the hits while on his back, the officer is off the hook either way. Also, in a panic situation it might not take forever to emply a magazine if the shooter could not determine the shots were having any effect or even hitting the target.

S-
 
What Caliber?

What range?

Any witnesses watching?

Was victim (sic) (BG) down supine and imobile w/ rounds still coming in?

Time frame for 14 rounds?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Hope Officer gets a clean bill and someone else pays for his legal expense.

(Note to self...Avoid Cleveland, Change that, Avoid Ohio)

Adios
 
Lethal force is just that, and usually defined by law, be it one round or more.

On the same train of thought, a good shoot is a good shoot, regardless of how much shooting.
 
It takes an alert observant person under optimal conditions 1.5 to 2.5 seconds to visually observe something and make physical adjustments which account for their most recent observation.

Most folks can fire 15 rounds from a semi-auto in 3-5 seconds. Under stress it is much more difficult to rapidly process observations and adjust responses. Failure to do so when another person has by their own aggressive acts directly caused the stressful situation is not unreasonable.

Start shooting when you reasonably feel threatened. Stop shooting when you *KNOW* that they are no longer a threat. Everything that happens in between is on them.

"He should have known the decedant was about to put down the Knife..." is never going to work in a free society.

That said, the proper forum to determine how to procede in these situations is a Grand Jury.

Amendment V - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings. Ratified 12/15/1791.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
 
g.j. does not need brd.
Click to expand...
No, they don't. They don't administer any punishment, either. And, IIRC, the defendant doesn't get to present a defense.
Didn't some prosecutor boast once that he could get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich?
I see the Grand Jury solely as the vehicle that the Prosecutor uses to bring charges, or to justify not bringing charges. The jury that matters is the trial jury.
 
Az, the g.j. can look at everything pitched--from murder, manslaughter, battery with a deadly weapon, criminal recklessness with a deadly weapon, et al.

Matthew, g.j.s may not apply in state prosecutions. The g.j. has not yet been incorporated to the states. Thus, prosecutors, in some states (don't know if they can in Ohio), can skip the g.j. and just file the information (the charges) against the officer.

Tim, while the petit jury may be final (maybe not), if I were the officer I would prefer a no bill from the g.j. rather than get to trial. Avoidance is best.

More I hear about this, more I believe the "had it coming" theory will prevail in the g.j. room. Of course, there's the civil suit which may come.:scrutiny:
 
This sort of article really bothers me. The off duty officer was NOT shooting a burglar. He was shooting his attacker who was apparently discovered while effecting the burglary. To classify the bad guy as a burglar is to downplay the apparent fact that he attacked the officer. In other words, the officer was not shooting the guy to stop him from stealing property, but in an act to defend his own life.

The officer and his lawyer should have NO problems finding dozens of examples of failure to stop by bad guys who needed to be shot multiple times.

Prosecutor, "Officer Toomey, why did you shoot at this man 15 times?"

Officer Toomey, "Because the first 14 shots didn't stop his assault on me and I was in fear for me life."

Prosecutor, "Officer Toomey, why did you shoot this man only 15 times and not 16?"

Officer Toomey, "I ran out of ammo."
 
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