"Stopping Power" and cartridge selection - a refreshing discussion

[fastbolt]

Pros discuss both. Once the caliber and firearm are determined, these determine tactics and training.

I have a passing familiarity with that Prosser, having helped train SWAT folks with weapons and helping them choose their weapons & ammunition. It's just that it's not always something that they all seem to agonize over or endlessly debate among themselves. It' still just equipment to most of them, and equipment by itself is just something that can sit on a shelf. It requires a trained hand and an agile mind in order to be effectively utilized to accomplish a purpose.

I've seen them use 9mm to .45 ACP with equal aplomb.

Not all of them are what might be considered "gun guys", either. I've helped quite a number of them learn better ways to shoot, as well as to clean and maintain their weapons.

Tactics can certainly vary somewhat between general LE duties and SWAT, and for good reason.

Tactics for individual defensive use even varies when it comes to the needs of off-duty LE and non-LE folks. Some of the commercial schools are introducing a lot of 'crossover tactics' for personal defensive without burdening non-LE folks with team tactics, or giving away tactics to those folks of criminal intent and activity.

It's not surprising that hobbyists and shooting enthusiasts sometimes develop more of an appreciation and understanding of some aspects of shooting than are often developed by, or required of, everyday LE folks. Look at all the great competitive sporting shooters who aren't LE or military.

 

[Prosser]

Fastbolt:
When I got done writing that, I thought about it. The REALLY lucky guys get to have experts pick P220s for their carry guns, instead of Berettas, like SEALS, etc.

It's not just in the gun, it's the condition of the gun, how well they are kept up, and the conditions they are used in. My SWAT/MIL current friend despises the Beretta.

"What happens when the contract goes to the low bidder."

I've heard WW2 vets that hate 1911's. The issue guns were so bad they could barely hit anything, and they thought 1911's a POJ.

My SWAT friend is an expert shooter for 40 years, and still is.
With a Remington 700, in .308, if he's shooting, your dead, period. He's just as good with an Uzi in 9mm, an M-16, etc. He's always giving me a bad time that my gun choices are for elephants. He's kind of right.

I guess this rattling is to point out that I agree. Pros take what they are given, live with it, as long as it doesn't get them killed, and, adapt to the situation.

 

[357SIG]

357SIG, your statements pretty much echo (with some slight deviations) what I have seen and performed in the OR. The difference is negligible btw 9mm, 40 45 ect...Bullets to funny things when they hit people and are not always predicable. To many variables to accurately predict anything. The truer statement is that bullets are predictably unpredictable. Any surgeon who deals regularly in GSW trauma can tell you that.

Amen. I agree with that 110%. Any trauma injury is unpredictable at best. The point of all my annoying posting was to show that you're really dealing with physiology of the body, not ballistics. Reaction to anything is unpredictable...some people fight off deadly disease while others die from common influenza. You can't be sure of anything, but you can only increase your odds. Perfect example right here:
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102297/2b3Law_D.html
The man took 22 rounds of .40 165 gr. Ranger-Ts from the deputy's Glock 22, 17 of which were COM shots. He was still fighting.

Its a shame that some people can't handle being told about this, though. The same type of resistance was met when people began to use science to expain weather patterns, instead of "the gods" controlling it. Same thing when the Earth was suddenly round, not flat. I invite people to correct my "wrongs", but not to start calling me names like a 5-yr-old kid.

 

[Bobo]

The Conclusion in the article says it all. Every edge you can get in a life-threatening situation is welcomed.
This is how I feel about it...


Bobo

 

[Prosser]

Bobo:
Take that image, double or more the size of the .45 hole, from .45 to 1.32", and you have a 275 grain .475 Linebaugh HP, at 1566 fps.

That starts blowing half the heart away...

 

[Robert101]

Yes, Bobo that is exactly the point. I like the graphic. Caliber does matter and I'm tired of hearing about the 22 lr and shot placement.

 

[tbone1964]

kk havent seen the "refreshing" part of this thread yet, seems to me like we're whippin that same dead dog, Heres my take, shoot what ya like and shoot it all the time, 9mm .40s&w, .45 acp who cares? can ya affords to shoot it great, can you shoot it well great, is the end result the same? Fantastic! go have fun, stop all this drivel Just my @cvents

 

[North Bender]

... seems to me like we're whippin that same dead dog ...

Yo!

 

[OldCavSoldier]

What was the old saying? "A hit with a 38 beats a miss with a 44 mag." That is one reason I carry 38's regularly....because out to 35 feet, I can put my bullets within a half inch of where I want them to be...and double-taps are no problemo!!

 

[Prosser]

No denying as you get older, your caliber gets smaller...

 

[Casefull]

Most auto pistol rounds are too slow to cause lots of tissue damage. The magnum revolver rounds 1400 fps and higher start to make things happen. The endless discussions about shot placement are tedious ( of course it is the most important) Most cops cannot hit anything in shootouts cause like anyone they are scared and pumped up. I shoot squirrls with subsonic 22 ammo. They will stay in the tree for 15 minutes till they bleed out. If I shoot them with regular 22 lr the extra velocity blows thru them and they fall out of the tree. It is a legitimate comparison. For quick incapacitation you need velocity and bullet mass. Someone earlier mentioned a casull and a 22. If I hit your leg or arm with the casull you are probably out of the fight...more than likely the limb is dangling. A 22 probably not. Part of the problem is everyone always uses gelatin to simulate flesh and muscle. We talk about pigs and bears and forget that a large heavily muscled man is bigger than a pig and about the same size as a black bear. A lot of the hollow points are just for show as they are not driven to a high enough velocity to open up.

 

[Ben86]

A lot of the hollow points are just for show as they are not driven to a high enough velocity to open up.

.380 comes to mind. I carry them anyway just in the off chance that they work.

 

[DasFriek]

.380 comes to mind. I carry them anyway just in the off chance that they work.

The Hornady CD cartridge pretty much has solved expansion issues with the .380 caliber. But many other companies rounds work as well these days also. And they still get very good penetration even when fully expanded.

For me Bobo and Prosser pretty much summed up everything well for me also.
But lets not forget that with advances in bullets 9mm and .40 are expanding very close too .45acp expansion sizes.
But the weight is what sways me to the .45 over the others.

Now personally over them all i like the 10mm as it adds velocity and weight.
Its just too bad ammo costs and gun varieties are low for this round.

For my biased reasons i carry a .45, Id carry a .460 Rowland if i could get a conversion without the muzzle brake to make it viable to carry.

This is below is all personal opinion, And in changing times is overlooked.
If i can add anything new to the thread is i really feel that new ammo technology has brought the .380 round in the realm of viable handgun rounds.
With 9mm being made in small guns with short barrels and heavier bullets with less time for powder burn velocities are low.
The .380 sneaks in with its lighter weight and good velocity and excellent expansion now days.
I wouldn't have felt this way last year but it changed not so long ago when i bought a Sig P238 and that gun really changed my mind about the .380 cartridge. I still wouldn't carry it as a main weapon, But that isnt the only caliber bigger than it that i wouldn't either.

 

[Prosser]

DasFriek:

You can have a .45 ACP timed so it shoots 45 Super(PM me if you want the gunsmith's name), half way between 45 ACP Plus P, though Double Tap has some loads darn close to 45 Super, and Rowland.

Double Tap should,at the end of the summer come out with the 451 SMC. That's pretty much the 45 case, rifle primer, stronger, and similar ballistics to the 45 Super/451 Detonics.

The 10MM is an excellent round that expands the box the FBI was stuck in. It's nearly as good as the 451 Detonics/45 Super stuff.

Problem is, the FBI has little people that don't shoot much, and, they can't handle big guns, or relatively heavy recoil.

Casefull brings up a great point. All of the guys that have attacked me have been at least 220, a couple around 275. 14" just about makes it through their arm, and pisses them off. I want a caliber that blows a BIG hole through the target, with a ton of shock, and as little recoil as possible. That means taking a BIG case, loading it to low pressure, with a big, expanding bullet. Also, there is a HUGE difference between a .45 caliber, .95" expanded hollow point, and, a 1.32" expanded .475 hollow point. The good news is that with such a huge hollow point, if you wanted to, you can load it as fast as you want, and, that bullet above will go 1800 fps, with a 2 bore sized hole.