Good info on stopping power

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willroute

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I know the talk of caliber stopping power gets thrown out and debated constantly. This article has been brought up on Thehighroad before, but wanted to post link to guntalk episode.

Best take away from article is - Well placed shots matter more than caliber.


Here is the article:
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


He also appeared on Guntalk.

You can download the podcast here:
Guntalk
 
This study has been posted on this site a couple of times, and there are a lot of flaws with it, including, but not limited to:

1) Lumping different round types (FMJ, JHP for example) or calibers together.
2) One-shot-stop wasn't actually OSS, but an average rounds per stop.
3) Small sample size

I know I'm missing a lot, it was disected in full a while ago, but those discussions have faded from my memory.
 
According to that link's "analysis" the 32 is the best caliber for self defense. :scrutiny:
 
Ah, I know I missed a few:

*Psychological vs. physiological stops. IOW, did the attacker go "ow, that hurts, I quit" or was he physically unable to move? That's covered in the conclusions, but not the data.

*On that note, there are a lot of conclusions that aren't really supported by the data, but that basically say the data is useless. The author covers a lot of what we cover in the conclusion, but the problem is that makes the main point of what people look at (the stats) meaningless.

A good experiment or study asks a question, figures out criteria to evaluate that question, collects data, analyzes the data, and draws conclusions based on the analysis. The problem here was you have the data presented, but before it can be analyzed the conclusion steps in and says "nope, doesn't matter."
 
The main thing I took from this article was the importance of "psychological stops". Will a .32 to the leg do as well as a 45 to the leg? Probably not. Will a .32 aimed at him make the BG wet his pants as often as a .45? It would me!
 
Caliber talk is always fun.

Personally, I'm happy carrying 9mm, as long as I can use JHPs. If I ever have to stick with FMJ for carry, I'll switch to .45.
 
These "they're all the same" reports always get good traction with smaller caliber fans/users. And, they get recycled again and again. Bigger/Heavier remains better than smaller/lighter, but small is still plenty good enough most of the time and the user often makes more of a difference than the caliber. Same as it's always been.
 
Interesting read (I missed previous postings of this article). What I took away from this was, use what you're comfortable with and practice with it! Seems like pretty good advise to me.....
 
A hot girl that walks across a room will stop (guys and women) and turn their heads. The ability to stop 60 or more people on their tracks in 2 seconds. That's called stopping power.
 
These "they're all the same" reports always get good traction with smaller caliber fans/users.
In the same respect gets negative reviews by full size pistol users/fans.

I thought I read on THR some where that the avg "gun" fight last 2 point something rounds. This article follows those numbers.
 
If someone does a double or triple tap and hits the target with all shots, it really skews the statistics. :uhoh:

IMO, that was one of the serious flaws with M&S: they tossed out any results from a good shooter.

Ken
 
Best take away from article is - Well placed shots matter more than caliber.

I view it a little differently. Shot placement is important regardless of caliber.
To properly ascertain cartridges comparative stopping power, you need to compare them assuming same or similar shot placement.
 
I forget where I read it, but there is a report from a coroner about his years of seeing gunshot fatalities. He saw more dead people with a single .45 than a single <any other caliber>. If he saw someone dead via a 9mm, it was from multiple shots.
 
Skribs said:
...*Psychological vs. physiological stops. IOW, did the attacker go "ow, that hurts, I quit" or was he physically unable to move? That's covered in the conclusions, but not the data...
That's really reflected in the "Failure to Incapacitate" data as outlined here:
Frank Ettin said:
I think this is the most significant data from the study:

Ellifritz_Failure_to_Incap.jpg

The assailants not incapacitated are the ones who can still hurt you.

And as Ellifritz says (emphasis added):
Greg Ellifritz said:
...Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this....

The study is discussed more extensively here.
 
Best take away from article is - Well placed shots matter more than caliber.


Same thing my Grandpa told me 50 years ago. Guess he musta been way ahead of his time, eh? Of course it coulda just been common sense and experience.


One reason I have given up on gun and hunting rags. On the front cover of every issue they have captions like "new and improved methods for success!", "secrets revealed to make sure you get your buck!" and "Must know info on your carry ammo!". Funny when you read the articles they are referring to, it's the same thing they had in their mag 30 years ago or what my dad, gramps, or my uncles told me back when I first started hunting. I guess what's old is new again.
s
 
I view it a little differently. Shot placement is important regardless of caliber.
To properly ascertain cartridges comparative stopping power, you need to compare them assuming same or similar shot placement.

This is the correct logic for comparison. Good luck with that.

Assuming the above, which is the correct method of comparison, once, I could not imagine anyone would think, at service handgun velocities, that a lighter/smaller bullet would be identical to a heavier/larger one. Such thinking does not apply in any other circle I can think of. Then, came the interweb. And, when ammo prices went way up a few years back, and 9mm became the cost-effective standout, lo-and-behold, it became also "equal" in the eyes of the masses. Coincidence?

Most shooters are novice at best. 50-100 rounds a month, maybe. I believe 9mm is the better choice for most shooters. Not because it's "equal", but because most shooters will control and shoot it better, and have added capacity to offset misses. Guns are smaller and lighter at comparable capacities, too. It all adds up to more than offset 9mm deficiencies.

If I could have only one, it would be 9mm. Disclosure: I prefer 230gr .45acp.
 
Coalman, I don't think too many people are saying that they are "equal" (although some people do). What many people, myself included, are looking at is that all handguns suck. The .45 is bigger than the 9, but the only real difference is going to be a slightly wider range of what you can hit with the same hole. If you're 2" under the heart with the 9, you're 1.9" under the heart with the .45. It's not like a shotgun where you get multiple wound channels, or a rifle where you get a lot of trauma with the cavitation.
 
It's been argued, discussed and talked about a thousand times. It comes down to individual cases. Giving two different people the same set of circumstances will yeild 2 different results. The difference between a 9,40, 45, 44, 357, etc is impossible to guess. The old idea that the most powerful weapon still has the tendancy to do the most damage, is still the most noteworthy, given everything else being equal.
I have found the 9mm to be the ideal weapon for carry. It is light enough that you won't leave it home. And can be shot accuratlly enough to put the rounds on target without fighting with the weapon.
And during a real gunfight there is too much going on to accuratelly fire at the ideal place to stop your target. You will be lucky to get a clean shot in. Once things slow down you may be able to re evaluate and shoot a cleaner shot, if you are still able to shoot, and the threat has not stopped.But getting that first and second shot is going to determine the result for the most part.
If you can shoot a 22lr ruger or baretta, with extreme accuracy, then that's what you should use. 2 or 3 quick shots to the head will end things fast. The problem lies in that hardly anyone practices with moving targets, like leading ducks or pheasent, you need to know where that head is going to be half a second from now.
A decent drill if your range dosen't have moving targets, is to use 2 lanes or a target holder with clips for 2 target holders. Then shoot from one to the other rapidlly as possible, aiming for the center, Back and forth, also if you can, allow the target to come back to the station and fire at it while it's coming twords you. At least you will get some practice with movement. Even better if you and a friend rent 2 lanes next to each other, and take turns moving the targets back and forth to simulte movement durin a simulation of someone closing in on you. Try it out, you may be suprised how it changes things.
 
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