Buzztail
Member
Well said!
Stopping Power of .45 Compared to 9mm
- Thread starter Norinco982lover
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Well said!
primer
Member
The people I have talked to like the .45. But the ammo makes a big difference. I stagger my ammo between fmj and jhp. I also have self defence rounds that spread on contact and are supposed to fragment and send pellets into the target. The problem with this ammo is that it won't go threw a thick wall, but it will go into a person and cause damage. If the subject hides behind a wall a fmj will be the next round and they will go threw a wall. Basically, some lower grain jhp rounds may not penetrait like desired. As far as the fmj, I doubt a wallet will stop a round whether it's 9mm or .45. A low grain jhp, Maybe but I'm not going to test it! Shoot what you like. I like my .45's but wouldn't toss a 9mm in a shootout. Also, most would agree a 357mag is a good self defence round and it's smaller the a .45. Like I said, I feel it's a ammo selection issue more than a caliber issue. Just my opinion.
chieftain
Member
The first requirements of any fighting weapon is reliability.
Most often, but not always the 9mm is more reliable simply because it is a tapered case.
Then once you have a reliable weapon, find one that fits YOU!..., not feels good to you but actually fits you.
Get lots of training, and practice a lot. Get more training and practice even more.
Clean you weapon after every use. Not a wipe down, CLEAN IT. No pro would go to a gun fight with a dirty weapon.
Pick good bullets in the caliber you choose.
IF caliber is still your question, you obviously don't understand the question.
Go figure.
Fred
Most often, but not always the 9mm is more reliable simply because it is a tapered case.
Then once you have a reliable weapon, find one that fits YOU!..., not feels good to you but actually fits you.
Get lots of training, and practice a lot. Get more training and practice even more.
Clean you weapon after every use. Not a wipe down, CLEAN IT. No pro would go to a gun fight with a dirty weapon.
Pick good bullets in the caliber you choose.
IF caliber is still your question, you obviously don't understand the question.
Go figure.
Fred
Gun Slinger
member
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Hmmm....another .45 vs. 9mm thread. 
Sure wish I could arrange to get a royalty payment everytime this question was asked.
Sure wish I could arrange to get a royalty payment everytime this question was asked.
DougDubya
Member
Neither caliber comes close to a fighting rifle for defensive purposes.
Both generally perform the same in terms of mass/velocity physics (muzzle energy), have a mere difference of 0.097 inches in diameter, and in general it takes 342 .45 projectiles to equal the mass of a full grown male, as opposed to 685 9mm projectiles.
Pick which is more accurate and pick which fits in a firearm that is RELIABLE and FITS YOUR HAND best. Then hone your skill in putting the bullets where they have to go.
Everything else is voodoo speculation conducted with research that has been disputed due to statistical inconsistency and shooting flavorless dessert treats covered in denim.
Both generally perform the same in terms of mass/velocity physics (muzzle energy), have a mere difference of 0.097 inches in diameter, and in general it takes 342 .45 projectiles to equal the mass of a full grown male, as opposed to 685 9mm projectiles.
Pick which is more accurate and pick which fits in a firearm that is RELIABLE and FITS YOUR HAND best. Then hone your skill in putting the bullets where they have to go.
Everything else is voodoo speculation conducted with research that has been disputed due to statistical inconsistency and shooting flavorless dessert treats covered in denim.
Sprfld1911
member
royalties
Gun Slinger, I think we will be discussing this issue as long as there are new shooters...
Gun Slinger, I think we will be discussing this issue as long as there are new shooters...
Is there any inherent accuracy difference between 9mm and 45? According to my uncle, 9mm couldn't hit the broadside of a barn from 2 ft, and as such I shouldn't get a 9mm for my first handgun. He has a tendency to state opinion as fact though...
(Don't mean to threadjack, but I couldn't find any relevant info with a search, and I didn't want to start another thread on this subject)
(Don't mean to threadjack, but I couldn't find any relevant info with a search, and I didn't want to start another thread on this subject)
Buzz Knox,
You said: "As for 9mm and .45, neither has real stopping power."
I think a lot of dead people's families would disagree, as would the dead if they weren't dead. I guess we must assume you don't own any handguns at all, or if you do you must certainly believe in a mythical type of stopping power.
Personally, I believe handguns really stop people. I love when all these handgun bashers want us to run out and buy rifles for home protection (and I have a sneaking suspicion that these bashers are, themselves, handgun owners). Am I supposed to bust out my AK-47 and pray none of my neighbors two blocks away catch an errant bullet. Pistol bullets already overpenetrate as it is. And as for shotguns, the guy already has one and was asking us about pistols.
Norinco, the 9mm and .45 are both excellent at really stopping people. In fact, most times a gun is used in self-defense, the trigger is never even pulled. When it is, rest assured that a well placed bullet in either caliber will do its job--and then some. A local case just last week involved a nut that broke into a couple's apartment and after a lot of belligerent speech, began fondling the man's wife. He shot the man with a 9mm and the round went through his torso and the wall. The guy also lived to run away (but not very far). That has more to do with shot placement than anything else. If it was a .45 it is in no way guaranteed the guy would've hit the ground dead. In all likelihood, the same would have resulted. At least the bullet penetrated what it hit. It's the shooter's job to hit the right thing.
A lot of times people like to make it sound like shooting someone with a .45 is like implanting a small monster from "Aliens" that will wreak wild havoc and completely destroy the inside of the bad guy. It's just a piece of lead of a certain diameter. compare that diameter to a 9mm and then to a human body. It's easy to see both calibers are very tiny in comparison to their targets. But no sane person wants to get shot by either one.
Just to disclaim, I own a 9mm. But I want to get a .45 with my next purchase. And I'll still keep the 9. That's because I think all guns are fun. And a 9mm, .40, or .45 are all extremely formidable calibers that can easily end any bad guy's life, when aimed well. And a lot of times, even when not. I would feel just as confident with any of those calibers.
Some of the nicer things about the 9mm. Most regular 9s hold 15 to 19 rounds in the mag without a correspondingly thick grip. Also, Norinco, you bought a Norinco, which makes me believe your interested in saving a buck or two. Well 9mm target ammo is just about the cheapest you can buy this side of .22s.
I would recommend JHP 147 gr for self defense in the 9mm. In any caliber, the heavier bullets (while slower and with less sexy muzzle energy numbers) consistently have better penetration than lighter and faster bullets (within that caliber).
You said: "As for 9mm and .45, neither has real stopping power."
I think a lot of dead people's families would disagree, as would the dead if they weren't dead. I guess we must assume you don't own any handguns at all, or if you do you must certainly believe in a mythical type of stopping power.
Personally, I believe handguns really stop people. I love when all these handgun bashers want us to run out and buy rifles for home protection (and I have a sneaking suspicion that these bashers are, themselves, handgun owners). Am I supposed to bust out my AK-47 and pray none of my neighbors two blocks away catch an errant bullet. Pistol bullets already overpenetrate as it is. And as for shotguns, the guy already has one and was asking us about pistols.
Norinco, the 9mm and .45 are both excellent at really stopping people. In fact, most times a gun is used in self-defense, the trigger is never even pulled. When it is, rest assured that a well placed bullet in either caliber will do its job--and then some. A local case just last week involved a nut that broke into a couple's apartment and after a lot of belligerent speech, began fondling the man's wife. He shot the man with a 9mm and the round went through his torso and the wall. The guy also lived to run away (but not very far). That has more to do with shot placement than anything else. If it was a .45 it is in no way guaranteed the guy would've hit the ground dead. In all likelihood, the same would have resulted. At least the bullet penetrated what it hit. It's the shooter's job to hit the right thing.
A lot of times people like to make it sound like shooting someone with a .45 is like implanting a small monster from "Aliens" that will wreak wild havoc and completely destroy the inside of the bad guy. It's just a piece of lead of a certain diameter. compare that diameter to a 9mm and then to a human body. It's easy to see both calibers are very tiny in comparison to their targets. But no sane person wants to get shot by either one.
Just to disclaim, I own a 9mm. But I want to get a .45 with my next purchase. And I'll still keep the 9. That's because I think all guns are fun. And a 9mm, .40, or .45 are all extremely formidable calibers that can easily end any bad guy's life, when aimed well. And a lot of times, even when not. I would feel just as confident with any of those calibers.
Some of the nicer things about the 9mm. Most regular 9s hold 15 to 19 rounds in the mag without a correspondingly thick grip. Also, Norinco, you bought a Norinco, which makes me believe your interested in saving a buck or two. Well 9mm target ammo is just about the cheapest you can buy this side of .22s.
I would recommend JHP 147 gr for self defense in the 9mm. In any caliber, the heavier bullets (while slower and with less sexy muzzle energy numbers) consistently have better penetration than lighter and faster bullets (within that caliber).
DougDubya
Member
cowssurf, you're thinking of dead.
Reliable stopping power is not the product of any single bullet. Nor am I saying use an AK for home defense. Handguns, however, are notoriously weak sisters, and they require precision and determination to win the fight.
Thank you very much for twisting the words of those who try to project reality, rather than your definition of "stopping power" by referencing "the families of those killed by 9mm and .45 ACP." Such sneering definitions and ignorance of the research done before you proclaiming an "absolute truth" truly is representative of the High Road.
Note - even shot through the heart with a .30-06, a grown man will still have enough oxygen in his bloodstream to engage in violent activity for 15 seconds. If he's able to act for 15 seconds with full strength and violence of action, even though he'll be dead in 16 seconds, he is NOT stopped for those prior 15.
It's simple math.
Reliable stopping power is not the product of any single bullet. Nor am I saying use an AK for home defense. Handguns, however, are notoriously weak sisters, and they require precision and determination to win the fight.
Thank you very much for twisting the words of those who try to project reality, rather than your definition of "stopping power" by referencing "the families of those killed by 9mm and .45 ACP." Such sneering definitions and ignorance of the research done before you proclaiming an "absolute truth" truly is representative of the High Road.
Note - even shot through the heart with a .30-06, a grown man will still have enough oxygen in his bloodstream to engage in violent activity for 15 seconds. If he's able to act for 15 seconds with full strength and violence of action, even though he'll be dead in 16 seconds, he is NOT stopped for those prior 15.
It's simple math.
MCgunner
Member
Both are service calibers and with good ammo both work well. What I like about 9mm is the subcompacts it comes in for easy concealment. .45s are not as adaptable to CCW and the round doesn't warrant the compromises to me. I mostly pocket carry. IWB is a big time PITA for me.
I shoot .45 a lot, love the gun I have for it, Ruger P90.
I shoot .45 a lot, love the gun I have for it, Ruger P90.
jonboynumba1
Member
I'm a .45 guy....I carry a 9mm mostly these days...I've carried both in several guns over the years. I've shot lots of stuff with both. I've shot critters with both. With modern deffensive ammo any difference is pretty meaningless as far as people are concerned. Get a handgun that fits you and points well in a caliber you can handle and shoot fast and acurately with. Find a holster that allows ypou to carry it concealed with comfort security and safety well concealed yet allows you fairly quick acces to it. Handguns are always a compromise...find something that fits and perfroms well for you and shoot the snot out of it and get some instruction. Whether it's a G19/23/36 or XD 9/40/45 ect is not important as long as it fits you and you shoot it well.
-It aint the arrow it's the Indian folks
PS-For the record I shoot and carry an XD9 4" in a Bianchi carrylock holster every day...unless I'm carrying a customized 1911 in same model holster on a wilderness frequent flyer or instructors belt. These are tools that work for me...I've carried a LOT of guns (mostly 1911's & GLOCK's...they all did about the same thing...some helped "me" do it better than others) YMMV
-It aint the arrow it's the Indian folks
PS-For the record I shoot and carry an XD9 4" in a Bianchi carrylock holster every day...unless I'm carrying a customized 1911 in same model holster on a wilderness frequent flyer or instructors belt. These are tools that work for me...I've carried a LOT of guns (mostly 1911's & GLOCK's...they all did about the same thing...some helped "me" do it better than others) YMMV
primer
Member
Shoot for the head. I've never seen or heard of someone getting shot in the head and keep on coming no matter how big or drugged up they are.
Cranky Amnesiac,
I'm not saying that rifles are not more powerful. I'm saying they're not under most circumstances as practical. What annoys me is when people (who inexplicably own handguns) get all excited to say, "Dude, handguns are weak, bro, so who cares what the caliber is. Only rifles and shotguns are real manstoppers." You made the excellent and well-known point about somebody get shot in the heart and bleeding out (although I don't know what argument of yours that it furthered). That suggests that it is important to hit your target with a bullet that will penetrate far enough, but don't bank on them dropping dead right there. Of course, you undermined your implicit (by opposing my opposing Buzz Knox) argument that only rifles are real manstoppers by explicitly stating that some of the most powerful rifle bullets (like the .30-06) won't even stop a man. You see Cranky Amnesiac, I guess what I'm saying is this. What exactly is the point of all you anti-handgun ballistics guys? Are you suggesting we don't get handguns? I mean, if they are only imaginary manstoppers in your eyes, what else could you be suggesting?
I'm not saying that rifles are not more powerful. I'm saying they're not under most circumstances as practical. What annoys me is when people (who inexplicably own handguns) get all excited to say, "Dude, handguns are weak, bro, so who cares what the caliber is. Only rifles and shotguns are real manstoppers." You made the excellent and well-known point about somebody get shot in the heart and bleeding out (although I don't know what argument of yours that it furthered). That suggests that it is important to hit your target with a bullet that will penetrate far enough, but don't bank on them dropping dead right there. Of course, you undermined your implicit (by opposing my opposing Buzz Knox) argument that only rifles are real manstoppers by explicitly stating that some of the most powerful rifle bullets (like the .30-06) won't even stop a man. You see Cranky Amnesiac, I guess what I'm saying is this. What exactly is the point of all you anti-handgun ballistics guys? Are you suggesting we don't get handguns? I mean, if they are only imaginary manstoppers in your eyes, what else could you be suggesting?
DougDubya
Member
The .30-06 argument was meant to say - there is a difference between killing and stopping your opponent.
Baby Face Nelson was killed due to 17 rounds of .45 ball pumped into him. Unfortunately, before Nelson was "stopped," he murdered the FBI agents who shot him with a Thompson submachine gun (the original address of those 17 rounds), drove SEVERAL miles to his hideout, then laid down to take a nap.
I'm not anti-handgun ballistics.
I'm anti-"magical one shot bullet."
Pick the handgun that best fits you and that is most pleasant for you to shoot. Train hard with it. Train well with it. Learn failure drills such as the Mozambique (two COM, one head) or Farnham's "zipper" (start shooting low torso and keep firing until cessation of violent activity).
The manstopper, like the most important aspect of accuracy, is not the handgun or the rifle. It is the user behind the gun.
Accuracy and tactics do far more than choosing 9mm, .45, or .357 Magnum, which is why the .32 ACP and the .380 ACP lasted so long as military calibers, and why the Chicago Police changed to high capacity autoloaders only because they wanted more ammunition in gun, not because of superior "stopping power."
Baby Face Nelson was killed due to 17 rounds of .45 ball pumped into him. Unfortunately, before Nelson was "stopped," he murdered the FBI agents who shot him with a Thompson submachine gun (the original address of those 17 rounds), drove SEVERAL miles to his hideout, then laid down to take a nap.
I'm not anti-handgun ballistics.
I'm anti-"magical one shot bullet."
Pick the handgun that best fits you and that is most pleasant for you to shoot. Train hard with it. Train well with it. Learn failure drills such as the Mozambique (two COM, one head) or Farnham's "zipper" (start shooting low torso and keep firing until cessation of violent activity).
The manstopper, like the most important aspect of accuracy, is not the handgun or the rifle. It is the user behind the gun.
Accuracy and tactics do far more than choosing 9mm, .45, or .357 Magnum, which is why the .32 ACP and the .380 ACP lasted so long as military calibers, and why the Chicago Police changed to high capacity autoloaders only because they wanted more ammunition in gun, not because of superior "stopping power."
The Big One
member
Boy I'm pretty sure they don't teach the Mozambique double tap anymore.
As a ICU/ER RN, I've seen quite a few gun shot traumas first hand. I have also seen the days that follow, if initial shooting survived, and the care that goes into the wound and body damage as a whole. When I read these questions, I think of my old friend who is a retired federal agent...he once told me a handgun is a good defense weapon, but it's a piss poor choice for a gun fight. 9mm with good ammo is fine, 45 may be marginally better with hollow points, but most shoot 9's a lot better. Get a 870 12ga, so that you have a real decisive choice to go to...then get a handgun you can shoot well....whatever the caliber. I have seen equal failures with 9,40,and 45. Hope this helps....
SoCalShooter
Member
Stopping power is directly proportional to the accuracy of your fire and shot placement, there are some very good 9mm bullets out there that expand well and can really do some damage to soft tissue...however as the old addage goes your 9mm may expand but my .45 ain't gonna get any smaller.
DougDubya
Member
Oh... I'd like to point out an earlier miscalculation.
I forgot to multiply the grains by ounces per pound.
It takes around 5500 (5,478 exactly) .45 ACP rounds to make up the mass of a 180 pound man. It takes 10,956 9mm rounds to equal that measurement.
1/5500th. 1/11000th. Double the size of near naught is still near naught.
I forgot to multiply the grains by ounces per pound.
It takes around 5500 (5,478 exactly) .45 ACP rounds to make up the mass of a 180 pound man. It takes 10,956 9mm rounds to equal that measurement.
1/5500th. 1/11000th. Double the size of near naught is still near naught.
jenrob
Member
Just get a 40S&W half way between.
I carry a 45acp but wouldn't think twice (it would be on my hip) about a 9mm if my 45 was gone.
A wallet to stop any bullet is either made of kevlar or has a steel plate in it.
I have shoot 9mm 40S&W and 45acp into 2 large city phone books approx 6in. thick with a brick on the back side. Every shot with each cracked the brick.
It takes less practice with a 9mm than a 45ACP. Not saying that you shouldn't practice every day that you can. But less recoil in a 9mm (depends on gun) means less you have to over come with learning to shoot it.
As said before if you don't reload then get the 9mm and even if you do it's still not a bad choice.
Go to a range, find some co-workers, or friends that have different firearms and try them out.
Ask one of you local gun dealers if and where they shoot and if they would let you tag along and maybe try out some of thier firearms if you bring the ammo.
This will give you an idea and maybe even give you somebody to go shoot with later.
I carry a 45acp but wouldn't think twice (it would be on my hip) about a 9mm if my 45 was gone.
A wallet to stop any bullet is either made of kevlar or has a steel plate in it.
I have shoot 9mm 40S&W and 45acp into 2 large city phone books approx 6in. thick with a brick on the back side. Every shot with each cracked the brick.
It takes less practice with a 9mm than a 45ACP. Not saying that you shouldn't practice every day that you can. But less recoil in a 9mm (depends on gun) means less you have to over come with learning to shoot it.
As said before if you don't reload then get the 9mm and even if you do it's still not a bad choice.
Go to a range, find some co-workers, or friends that have different firearms and try them out.
Ask one of you local gun dealers if and where they shoot and if they would let you tag along and maybe try out some of thier firearms if you bring the ammo.
This will give you an idea and maybe even give you somebody to go shoot with later.
MarcusWendt
Member
It's called a failure now or body armor drill. It's still two to COM and one o the head or, if the head is obstructed, one to the groin area.
Shoot until the threat is neutralized is also taught among other things.
Different name, but they still teach it.
The simple fact is that most people survive handgun wounds (roughly 80% of all handgun wounds in USA are survivable). Doesn't matter what caliber.
All handgun calibers are poor manstoppers. The purpose of SD firearms is to incapacitate a BG so that he/she no longer is capable-of or interested in causing you harm. This does not equal death -although death may be the end-result.
That's why the general philosophy on this board is "shoot to stop". In order to stop anybody, you have to consistenly hit your target.
All handgun calibers are poor manstoppers. The purpose of SD firearms is to incapacitate a BG so that he/she no longer is capable-of or interested in causing you harm. This does not equal death -although death may be the end-result.
That's why the general philosophy on this board is "shoot to stop". In order to stop anybody, you have to consistenly hit your target.
Geronimo45
Member
Wasn't SM talking about this somewhere on some forum?
IOW: My locks and doors keep me from more BGs than my guns do (as my guns are typically hidden from view). My alarm might scare away some of those BG's who weren't deterred by the doors. The guns are in case all else fails. That's all I'm a-sayin' - defensive mindset and preparations, then caliber. George W. Bush may have a gun in his nightstand drawer. What caliber does he use? It doesn't much matter. It will probably never matter - because preparations are in place to protect him from ever needing to use any gun in defense of himself.
Completely unknown. General consensus is that the .45 has a slight edge (5-10%, I'd say) but that's just guesswork. Plenty of stories of failures to stop with both calibers.
Not a bad suggestion. Hollow points are believed to be as effective or more effective than FMJ.
No. Family safety needs to be more than just a gun (plans and precautions are good things to have - secure windows, good locks, lights, alarms, maybe a dog...). I consider the 9mm hollow-point to be an effective round, but not a good lone safety mechanism.
IOW: My locks and doors keep me from more BGs than my guns do (as my guns are typically hidden from view). My alarm might scare away some of those BG's who weren't deterred by the doors. The guns are in case all else fails. That's all I'm a-sayin' - defensive mindset and preparations, then caliber. George W. Bush may have a gun in his nightstand drawer. What caliber does he use? It doesn't much matter. It will probably never matter - because preparations are in place to protect him from ever needing to use any gun in defense of himself.
As said above, stupid Federal regs regarding smoothbore short-barrel shotguns do not apply to rifled hanguns.
SoCalShooter
Member
re Geronimo45
The judge should be fine in most states unless you live in California then it is not on the *extortion*/drop test list.
The judge should be fine in most states unless you live in California then it is not on the *extortion*/drop test list.
Confederate
Member
The round-nose configurations of both the .45 and 9mm are horrendous. I was told by a friend of mine who was in the Korean conflict that after major battles with the Chinese that enemy bodies were routinely examined to see what had killed them. They dressed heavily with thatched coats, and many of them were found dead with .45 bullets still lodged in their clothing. Further, my friend added, most of the Chinese dead had been wounded with 9mm machine gun fire. The big deal was that the heavy and slow .45 slugs wouldn't always penetrate the heavy Chinese clothing.
This problem has now been thoroughly resolved, but it was a one-time issue. The .45 Government Issue also was horribly inaccurate. That was because they were horribly loose. And they were terribly unreliable by today's standards.
The 9mm of today are much more reliable as weapons than an out of the box .45, all $$$ considered.
I love the .45 round of today, but I wouldn't buy a 1911 to save my life. Give me a modern design, please!
This problem has now been thoroughly resolved, but it was a one-time issue. The .45 Government Issue also was horribly inaccurate. That was because they were horribly loose. And they were terribly unreliable by today's standards.
The 9mm of today are much more reliable as weapons than an out of the box .45, all $$$ considered.
I love the .45 round of today, but I wouldn't buy a 1911 to save my life. Give me a modern design, please!
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