Story about an ND that ruined a family

[brighamr]

This is a personal and tragic story, but I fell compelled to tell it.

The place I currently live in is a rental (house on acreage, far away from any town). I love it here. I can shoot of my back porch, hunt in my front yard and pretty much do as I please... to a point.

I asked my landlord if I could get and FFL to buy and sell firearms from her house. This is a required step because the first thing the ATF is going to do is contact your landlord, and its better to talk to him/her first.

Keep in mind, the lady who owns this house also owns guns. She understands the necessity because we do have wolves/coyotes/bears in the vicinity.

Well, I went to her house and explained what I planned to do and asked for her permission. She said she would think about it and talk to me at a later date.

About 4 days later, her ex-husband (kind of the maintenance guy for our place) comes by and I asked him about it. This was his reply: "Several years ago I ran a small gunsmithing business out of this very house. We were still married and had 6 children. During a routine cleaning of one of the guns, the rifle fired through the garage ceiling. The round struck our 4 year old daughter in the head and she died within hours. That's about all I want to say".

I dont know who was cleaning, or what type of rifle or how it happened. I do know that soon after, they divorced. Kids went to live with relatives, and to this day the ex-husband (who is a genuinly nice guy) doesn't want anything to do with shooting.

A week later, my landlord gave me a call.
"Did <ex-husband> talk to you yet?"
"Yes"
"Well I thought about it a lot. I don't mind if you have a gun in the house for protection, but I don't feel comfortable with you running a gun related business there. It just makes an accident more likely to happen, and I don't think I could go through that again."

I completely understand her viewpoint, given her personal experiences. I politely apologized for even asking, and thanked her for being open with me. The next day my real estate search began, looking to own.

Lessons re-inforced by this sad story:
1) Safety is a must
2) There is such a thing as pro/anti gun people, and some of them have good reason
3) A gun is always loaded
4) One ND can ruin an entire family


Like I said, this isn't a fun story to tell. The only reason I post it here is to remind everyone that an ND can have serious consequences, even if the police aren't involved.

 

[Henry Bowman]

I feel for his/her loss. But...

2) There is such a thing as pro/anti gun people, and some of them have good reason

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this. I'd say, only if "good reason" includes "emotional and illogical."

Botton line, owner of the [residential] property can dictate its commercial use . . . for any reason at all.

 

[glockman19]

Completely understandable.

 

[LiquidTension]

Having a bad experience due to negligence is not a "good reason" to prohibit someone's firearms business. Being the owner of the property, on the other hand, is a good reason.

 

[RPCVYemen]

During a routine cleaning of one of the guns, the rifle fired through the garage ceiling.

I still have to wonder how this happens. I know that there are pistols that require you to pull the trigger to as a part of disassembly - and I won't buy one of those.

Are there rifles that have the same requirement?

I remember talking about those kinds of accidents as a kid with my dad, when we were cleaning guns after a trip to the range. We could never figure out how people could manage to shoot themselves or anyone else while cleaning a weapon.

Isn't the action always open when you're cleaning a weapon?

Mike

 

[TallPine]

I still have to wonder how this happens. I know that there are pistols that require you to pull the trigger to as a part of disassembly - and I won't buy one of those.

Are there rifles that have the same requirement?

One of my bolt actions - I think it is a Marlin .22 - requires pulling the trigger to release the bolt. However, you would already have the bolt fully open at that point.

All of my cleaning procedures start with "unload the gun"


Personally, I think this sort of reasoning makes as much sense as someone never driving/riding in a car after a loved one died in a car wreck. (maybe there's someone who actually does [not] do that...)

Me, I know someone who died in a hospital, so I never want to have anything to do with hospitals anymore.

 

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

The chamber has to be empty to do any kind of routine cleaning. Talk about a terrible set of consequences.

 

[Sato Ord]

I have to agree with not understanding how this type of "accident" can happen.

I always make sure of whether or not a firearm is loaded when I pick it up. If I am going to do anything other than holster it for carry, or shoot it, I make sure it is empty first, otherwise I make sure it is loaded and ready to fire.

Since this is how I have always handled firearms. I have never had such an accidental discharge, and I don't personally know anyone who has, and I've been around guns all my life (50 years now).

The first thing you should do when you go to clean a weapon, especially one (like my S&W) that requires pulling the trigger for disassembly, is make damn sure it isn't loaded. Once you have double checked that, you begin disassembly for cleaning.

As far as that FFL goes, looks like you have a hard choice to make. Either move, or don't get the FFL. As it has been said, it's her property, she has the final say, even if her decision is unreasonable.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It doesn't make sense, to be sure ... but you're stuck, and it does not sound like an issue I would want to press.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Every time I hear a story like this I have to wonder.
I personally know a lot of people (and have heard of a lot more) who were severely injured, maimed, killed by accidents involving automobiles.

None of them, not one, will have "nothing to do" with cars and none of the ones I know blame the automobile itself or cars in general for the resulting tragedy.

So why isn't this the case with firearms???

 

[RoadkingLarry]

A person is killed with a gun be it an "accident" or otherwise and many people suddenly hate guns.
A person is killed in a motor vehicle "accident" be it caused by a drunk dirver or what ever and everyone climbs into thier cars and drives to the funeral

 

[CNYCacher]

I politely apologized for even asking, and thanked her for being open with me. The next day my real estate search began, looking to own.

Please be as open with her and let her know that you are looking to move out soon. She is going to need to find a replacement tenant

 

[doc2rn]

Alot of bolt action .22s like the Savage MKII and some of the older rifles required pulling the trigger to disassemble.

 

[Mainsail]

Lessons re-inforced by this sad story:
3) A gun is always loaded

Sadly this is a huge part of the problem with NDs. A gun is not always loaded. It is profound stupidity that promotes this bastardization of the rule, which is; Treat a gun as though it is loaded until you verify that it is not. If it leaves your hand for any time it should be checked again. If all guns are always loaded, we would never dry fire or clean them!

A rule, by its very definition is inviolate. I cannot make a rule for myself that I won’t drive after drinking only to decide later, when I’m drunk, that I’m ok to drive. Such a rule is a farce at least and a lie at best. The same is true with ‘rules’ about firearms; it either is a rule or it is a lie. By teaching that “All guns are always loaded” and then immediately proving to yourself and the people you’re teaching, that you can violate the rule at your whim, you create a potential atmosphere of carelessness. It is foolish to dumb-down such a critically important thing such as firearms rules. If the audience is too stupid to understand the entire rule, they should not be trusted with possession of such a dangerous implement.

 

[TX1911fan]

Mainsail, I've made the same argument, and I had about as much luck as I expect you'll have.

I have one of those guns you have to pull the trigger to disassemble, but the slide has to be retracted first in order to move the disassembly lever, so I still don't understand how people have NDs while cleaning. If I retract the slide and a round pops out, shouldn't that tell me that I have a problem? If a full magazine is still in the weapon, should a round hitting the table alert me to that little tidbit? I think most of these "cleaning" accidents are really just people pulling the trigger for whatever reason and having the gun fire. It sounds better to say "I was cleaning it" than to say "I'm a dumb*ss who just decided to pull the trigger of a gun."

 

[Colt46]

Suppose he ran a stop sigh instead?

And mowed the child down in a crosswalk. Would it be the same if she made the decision that you couldn't work on or posess cars?
It's her place and I guess her decision. It's good of you to be respectful.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

That's a horrible tragedy and I feel for them.
Initially I thought "I can understand their position" but, no, it doesn't make sense. How about another angle with a different object: "I went to back the car out of the garage but it was in drive and lurched forward, killing a family member. I am ok with you having a car there but don't feel comfortable with you selling any cars."
OTOH, their house, their rules. Good luck on your search.
ETA: Looks like Colt46 and I had the same thought!

 

[rainbowbob]

A person is killed in a motor vehicle "accident"...caused by a drunk driver...and everyone climbs into their cars and drives to the funeral.

And after the funeral they have a drink or two at the wake.

A gun is not always loaded...Treat a gun as though it is loaded until you verify that it is not.

Good point. It may seem obvious, but it has always bothered me that you rarely see the last part of the rule. To which I would add: And then verify it again.

 

[TallPine]

It sounds better to say "I was cleaning it" than to say "I'm a dumb*ss who just decided to pull the trigger of a gun."

QFT

 

[nicki]

Accidental death

I was always wondering how someone could shoot themselves while cleaning a gun.

My CCW instructor told me that he knew of one person who was a state highway patrolman who has had 2 accidental discharges so far while cleaning his service revolver.

I asked how could this happen, I mean I always open the cylinder myself.

Well, this Darwin Award Cop does the following.

He sticks the cleaning rod down the chamber, runs it in and out, then he pulls the trigger to move to the next cylinder and does so 6 times.

So what he effectively does is clean the inside of expended rounds if he is lucky.

I guess he has trouble keeping track of how many shots he fired.

In all the excitement of shooting I guess he can't remember if he fired 5 or 6 shots.

Nicki

 

[Dave Workman]

What is WRONG with (some of) you people?

This woman lost a child. A 4-year-old daughter. Have any of you ever lost a child to a negligent discharge? Until you cross that threshold, you have no idea what that would feel like or how it would make you react to such a request from a tenant.

She's not objecting to having a gun in the house, but she has a problem with our colleague operating a gun business. Henry, suggesting this lady's objection is "emotional and illogical" is rather disappointing, amigo, especially from an intelligent guy like you.

It doesn't need to make sense to any of you. It only needs to make sense to the lady who will never see her daughter grow up, discover boys, go to the prom, graduate from high school, maybe college, get married, give her grandchildren....

On the other hand, clearly a lot of you recognize that somebody had a monumental bonehead moment with an obviously loaded rifle, and that will likely haunt and torment him for the rest of his days. I am glad that some simply suggest respecting this lady's decision.

Rant off.

 

[TX1911fan]

Dave, you just defined "emotional and illogical." Emotional and illogical decisions make sense only to the person making them. Logical decisions make sense to everyone. I don't think anyone is disputing that her decision makes sense to her, and everyone is basically saying that she has the right to make it. But you have to admit that the decision does not make sense when analyzed in an unemotional, logical fashion. Just look at the other examples. If my father dies of a heart attack, should I say that it's ok to have butter in the house, as long as you don't sell it to anyone?

 

[isuace]

Even if it was loaded, he is still breaking the other rule of "Always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction" which would not include up at your daughters' bedroom.

1)keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction
2)keep your finger off of the trigger
3)keep it unloaded until you are ready to use it

You have to violate all 3 rules in order to have this kind of accident. If you happen to miss just one, everyone still lives.

 

[shdwfx]

I don't think the lady is even against a gun businesses. Her concern was that she couldn't bear the 1 in a million chance that another death may be caused in the operation of a similar business in the same home in a similar manner to which her daughter was killed.

If her goal is to never have another person killed in her home by the negligent operation of a gun business, then the best way to do that is to forbid it on that property altogether.

If there is a 0.01% chance of something happening, and a 0% chance you can bear the consequences, you should do everything in your power to prevent the 0.01%. (btw: gun control analogies don't quite equate here. Even if guns did cause crime, a gun ban would still be a rights violation. There is no rights violation in this case.).

That's pretty logical.

 

[Thernlund]

Have any of you ever lost a child to a negligent discharge? Until you cross that threshold, you have no idea what that would feel like or how it would make you react to such a request from a tenant.

I expect that I would blame myself. The guilt would be unbearable. Knowing that I caused the death of my child would haunt me forever.

The gun, as a tool, wouldn't really factor except that I may be unable to hold one again in that it would remind me of such pain. That of course doesn't apply to others, does it?

Henry, suggesting this lady's objection is "emotional and illogical" is rather disappointing, amigo, especially from an intelligent guy like you.

But it is emotional and illogical. She does not live there. As such, she has no logical reason, other than emotion over the death of her child, to forbid guns in that structure, which she does not reside in.

It doesn't need to make sense to any of you.

Oh yes it does. If it is to impact my standard operating procedure it must make sense to me in every way. (Clearly this doesn't impact me. But it does the OP, and it is to that position that I speak.)

I am glad that some simply suggest respecting this lady's decision.

Of course the lady's decision should be respected. But not because of her tragedy. Only because she is the landlord.


-T.