Strained US Army relaxes new officer requirements

[coylh]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N09590298.htm

Trying to stem the loss of current personnel, the Army also has made it more difficult to kick soldiers out of the military for alcohol or drug abuse, being overweight or "unsatisfactory performance," according to a recent memo.

What do you think about lowering standards related low recruitment, vs lowering standards related to females in the army?

 

[BigG]

Based on the low standards they had 30 years ago when I was in, I can't see how they could lower them any more.

 

[rick_reno]

I think this is a sign of a military in trouble. The Marines on their 5th tour of duty in a war zone, the Army is on their 3rd. Their ability to retain people decreases with eash of the successive tours. Letting criminals in really concerns me - we need people in our military capable of making the best judgement calls, and cleary someone who commits "minor" crimes and gets caught is not that person.

 

[Polishrifleman]

Not a lot of experience on this topic, but are those "kicked out" for those reasons cited dishonorably discharged? Is that not a bad thing? Can't get a job, etc... or has that been watered down to the point these young men and women just don't care what effect it is going to have on their future? That is what I have always thought.

 

[CAS700850]

Gee, I guess they shouldn't have down-sized the Amry so much the last ten years or so. Imagine that, we might actually need soldiers.

Sounds like it's time to bump up the class sizes at West Point and give out more ROTC scholarships.

 

[noonanda]

I think if they have done drugs kick them out.
If my life depends on another marine, I want to be able to trust that he wont decide to get high on firewatch, then when he gets the munchies abandons his post to get something to eat

I came in the Corps with a marijuana waiver, and since I have been in the Corps could have had many chances to do drugs. But I gave that life up when I said "I noonanda swear to support and defend the constitution of the united states, against all enemies foreign and domestic. ETC"

The Army is setting themselves up for more problems in the long run if they lower their standards. It will be like putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound, yes it solves the temporary problem of low numbers but in the long run it may weaken them further

 

[Cesiumsponge]

I don't like the idea of easing requirements, period.

We're supposed to be putting the best of the best into the armed forces, not the best of the mediocre. I'm planning on enlisting sometime near the end of this year and even though I'm quite not in shape for scoring where I wish to be on the APFT (I can barely satisfy pushups and situps, got my chin-ups mastered, but not the running :banghead: ) I don't want to see the bar being lowered period. I felt it was a mistake to create gender-specific physical testing and qualification and I feel like it will be a mistake if we lower the physical requirement bar again, and lower another bar by broadening who qualifies to serve (though it depends exactly on the nature of what additional group can enter)

If my life depends on another marine, I want to be able to trust that he wont decide to get high on firewatch, then when he gets the munchies abandons his post to get something to eat

Likewise I don't want anyone I might depend on to be intoxicated from alcohol that he passes out, or getting pounding headaches by smoking nicotine-saturated heavy cigars, or wanking to some magazine when a grenade drops into a foxhole I share with him

Vaguely I recall "sometime" in history, "somewhere" (I honestly cannot remember) where officers and commanders were being picked off by sniper fire or some other reason incapacitating them...and to resolve this, people were rapidly promoted to take their place...but it only led to inexperience, indecisiveness, poor leadership, and disaster?

 

[noonanda]

wanking to some magazine in a foxhole I share with him

as long as he aint staring at me while doing it or gets umm CLP on me I could care less
Every man needs a little quiet time

 

[davec]

I think the Bush Daughters would make fine officers.

When do they depart for OCS?

 

[Eightball]

Just to touch on the second aspect of coylh's question of lowering standards to get in vs. lowering standards for women--what use would lowering the standards for women acheive? This might be politically incorrect, but there are many undisputable differences between men and women, some of which account for the fact that women already cannot be part of a forward combat unit. Women's center of gravity is lower than men's, on average they cannot lift as much, and they're shorter so they cannot lift it as high. They would have some huge problems reloading, say, an M1 Abrams as fast as an equally trained male soldier (extreme example, but it's logical). So, given that, would you rather have a guy who could at least to a halfhearted job, or a woman who can't do the job at all? Just some food for thought.

 

[chorlton]

Heres some more on the subject:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto.../20050610/ts_usatoday/armybonusesmayriseto40k

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/paynter/227497_paynter08.html

 

[jefnvk]

or wanking to some magazine when a grenade drops into a foxhole I share with him

If he's doing that in the foxhole, I don't wanna be sharing it regardless if there is incoming.

 

[joab]

kick soldiers out of the military for alcohol or drug abuse, being overweight or "unsatisfactory performance,

but are those "kicked out" for those reasons cited dishonorably discharged?

Usually General Under Honorable Conditions, pretty much means you ain't a bad guy, you juct ain't cut out for the Army

Dishonorable pretty much means we ain't allowed to shoot people like you anymore, so this is the best we can do

 

[MarkDido]

I think the Bush Daughters would make fine officers. When do they depart for OCS?

Right after John "Did you know that I was in Vietnam" Kerry makes his military records (ALL OF THEM) available, as he promised.

 

[Derby FALs]

Right after John "Did you know that I was in Vietnam" Kerry makes his military records (ALL OF THEM) available, as he promised.

Why should that factor in?

 

[Cosmoline]

and cleary someone who commits "minor" crimes and gets caught is not that person.

Don't cast stones so freely. I can pretty much guarantee everyone on this forum has commited many misdemeanor offenses over the years. The penal code is a heck of a lot broader than most people realize. Most of the time there's no enforcement, which is how it's supposed to be. But the mere fact that someone has a misdemeanor conviction doesn't mean squat other than they happened to get punished.

 

[Schiessuebung]

Derby FALs,

I don't think MarkDido's post is implying that the Bush daughters' entry into OCS is contingent on Kerry releasing all his military records first.

Rather, I believe he is simply equating the improbability of these two events.

That is to say: neither will ever happen.

 

[MarkDido]

Thank you Schiessuebung!

 

[WT]

Well, the CNO wants to get rid of 60,000 sailors. Maybe they could learn to drive a truck and deliver supplies, freeing the Army ground pounders to do other interesting things.

 

[DRZinn]

Gee, I guess they shouldn't have down-sized the Amry so much the last ten years or so. Imagine that, we might actually need soldiers.

Beat me to it. Amazing how one very small war is stretching us so thin. Imagine if we'd kept a few more. Imagine if something else happens now that requires troop involvement.

 

[wingman]

Imagine if we'd kept a few more. Imagine if something else happens now that requires troop involvement.

Two year draft for all, no exemptions. Needed now more then ever, will
we see it, yes, however when the call up comes it will be rushed and
behind but we seem to like operating that way. :banghead:

 

[RRTX]

People should still be kicked out for drug abuse and unsat performance, that is being a poor soldier and I wouldn't want that person beside me. The Army's weight standards on the other hand are rediculous, there are many good soldiers kicked out for being "overweight" that perform their jobs 100% and do good on PT tests.

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

Even though our military is streched razor thin, a draft is absolutely NOT the right answer. The only reason our soldiers, sailors and marines are arguably the best in the world is because they are all volunteers. (we still retain the right to complain however...) Teaching young people the complex tasks involved in every branch of the service is hard enough without most of them being there aganst their will. If you think the troops are mildly disgruntled now, what about if the guy watching your back was forced to be there and had no motivation to act like the professional trooper he should be?

 

[Lone_Gunman]

The never-ending War on Terror will continue to have a negative impact on recruitment. The military has not met recruitment goals any month so far in 2005, and there is no real hope this will improve, at least until the next administration comes along, and then only if the WOT is slowed down or stopped.

Who wants to join if there is no certainty they can leave when they think their time is up? Two reasons why the volunteer military has been so good is because people could be fairly certain they would get out when expected and resume civilian life, and they had little chance of actually getting killed in a military conflict. Those two things have changed some.

Over time, the good candidates will gradually shift away from the military and into the private sector, and the only volunteers will be people who are worse than the average draftee.

It is impossible to run an effective empire with a volunteer military. At some point down the road, I believe the draft will be back. I think draftees are underestimated by many people who volunteered. Draftees won every war we have been involved in since the revolution.

 

[Cosmoline]

We've been over this argument before, but a draft would be an abject disaster. America has changed greatly since the 1940's and '50's. The Vietnam draft was in retrospect a disaster, and a draft this time around would be even worse. Kids today are a lot more independent and unwilling to comply. Not only would the draftees make horrible soldiers, the enforcement of the draft would guarantee that whatever wars the US was involved in would be over at the next election cycle. This is the reason the leftists are the ones pushing for a new draft in Congress--it's a recruitment tool for THEM, not for the military.