Strained US Army relaxes new officer requirements

[Lone_Gunman]

There is some merit to what you say, Cosmoline. At this point, I agree a draft would be political suicide if someone seriously proposed it. But as Americans become more worried about safety than liberty, and as our politicians continue to pursue unending foreign wars in the name of fighting terrorism, sooner or later something will have to give, and we will have to get soldiers from somewhere.

Either we will have to raise salaries drastically to encourage "voluntary" recruitment, outsource our military to foreign mercenaries, or re-instate a draft.

 

[wingman]

Kids today are a lot more independent and unwilling to comply

There you go another reason for the draft. No discipline in the home
(many) none in the schools. (independent and unwilling)......

The draft gives you large numbers of trained people over period of years
when needed now we dont have that and in time we will pay, doesnt matter
if you like the draft or not. I seen some of the best soldiers, leaders come out
of the draft, bitching and complaining but when it got rough they would do
the job. The New America wants slave labor to do the hard work (illegals)
and a volunteer army to do there fighting all the while saying they are a bunch of great guys but GOD no I dont want to do it. :banghead:

 

[Cosmoline]

Wingman--how long ago was that? Things have changed, both on the front and at home. THink about it for a second. Why do you think the anti-war LEFT is the force pushing for a draft, while the DOD wants nothing to do with it? The draft during the Vietnam era was the left's greatest recruitment tool. They really want it back, because their ranks have thinned out over the decades.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Cosmoline, what do you see as the appropriate solution to low recruitment by the military?

If your solution is to increase salaries, how would you propose that be done? Cut social programs? Increase taxes? Either of these two methods would be as likely to get a politician un-elected as re-establishing a draft!

Maybe we need to outsource the military to India, or have a transient-migrant-soldier program with Mexico?

 

[Slater]

US Air Force uses basically the same principle:

Too many people? Tighten standards and force a few out.

Not enough people? Relax the standards and increase bonuses.

 

[Cosmoline]

Gunman--we go into debt. And in fact that's what we're doing. The draft is the nuclear bomb--even more so than raising taxes. If you think the complaining about reserve duty is getting intense--that's NOTHING compared with the mass protests and civil unrest another draft would cause. This is why the left wants it. They remember the blood and fire of the 1960's with great fondness.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Gunman--we go into debt. And in fact that's what we're doing.

We aren't filling recruitment goals now. You mean we need to go into a lot more debt?

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

Anyone who says that increasing military benefits, lowering standards, and relaxing other policys is not the right answer is absolutely right. However, a draft would be the greater of the evils by far. One only needs to look at the anti-authority views of much of Americas youth to see how poorly served the military would be with draftees. I'm sure a poll of minimum wage/18-21 age employers would result in many business owners and managers telling us how many kids they have to go through in order to get reliable employees for even part-time Taco Bell jobs. There are good, responsable, and patriotic kids out there, but far too many are the saggy-pants slackers seen infesting every mall. You can't even tell most kids to mow the lawn or take out the trash, much less take an objective in the face of withering enemy fire. And that does'nt even begin to cover the "low speed and high drag" jobs out there.... latrine duty, field day, drills held well before dawn even considers showing up, etc, etc...

 

[taliv]

i'm fine with relaxing standards. when i was draft-age, you didn't have to have a high school diploma to go in. do you really need one now? i don't think so.

do i really care if the supply and cooks and a bunch of other MOSs could stand to lose 30 lbs? no. besides, they'll sweat most of it off in the iraqi summer anyways.

i agree that a draft would be disasterous, but the thing that really gets me is how many people hear "the military is stretched razor thin" and accept that without its due skepticism.

i haven't seen anything to indicate we're anywhere close to thin. all i have seen is dramatically increased expectations that we're supposed to be able to win a war, to take over another country, without losing any lives.

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

[spartacus2002]

Maybe a less interventionist foreign policy would simplify the recruiting issue. We cannot garrison the entire planet; hell, we cannot hold much of Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

Spartacus, I agree, but unfortunately, no one in power thinks we should be anything less than a world empire.

 

[280PLUS]

The only reason our soldiers, sailors and marines are arguably the best in the world is because they are all volunteers.

That's funny, when I was on loan to the "All Volunteer" Navy, the senior types (I won't say "Lifers" ) were all complaining because mostly all they seemed to get were the guys whose choices were A. join the service or B. go directly to jail. I heard specific statements to the idea that DRAFTEES were better because although they may not want to be there most of them were a better selection of American society who would hunker down and "do their duty". I was in just post Vietnam FYI

I spent my Navy days with more than my share of father rapers and mother stabbers and have the memories to back it up.

Prime example, roomate's abdomen cut wide open by a broken wine bottle over $20. Shall I go on?

 

[gaston_45]

Relaxing the standards is a good idea at times. When was the last time you saw a marine strip down to pt shorts, lace on running shoes and do a 3 mile run into combat carrying nothing and finishing in under 27 minutes?? Those "tests" need to go and be replaced by tests that relate to real life. The forest service has a 3 mile test... 45 minutes minimum carrying a 40 pound pack. Now THAT is a good idea!

Oh, and all of you thinking that the millitary takes only the best and the brightest.... the marine corps still gets a LOT of those that go before a judge and are offered " the corps or jail... you choose". In fact, all services get them but you know what? those are the exact type you WANT in the millitary! I worked with three of them and they are by far the best you can find. They know how to survive, they do not whine and complain, they are glad to be given a second chance. Some of them are not like that I am sure, but the three I worked with were extremely grateful for the second chance.

 

[ETCss Phil McCrackin]

Well, 280, perhaps that was the case in the late 70's early 80's. We now have a few no loads, but the modern Navy and especially the sub force are among the most technically proficent and professional sailors around.

Every once in awhile someone does something terrible for no other reason than they are brain dead. This holds true for everyone from sailors to CHL holders.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

gaston_45

My line of thought was aligned more along the lines of lowering the physical requirements of getting in. I know everyone makes mistakes in life and it sucks that some people reform and don't get a second shot.

I'd rather have a physically fit person who stole candybars from 7-11 when he was 16 drag my wounded ass out of a hotzone rather than the 4.0GPA MIT grad who squeaked by with new lowered physical requirements and couldn't drag me 10 feet downhill on a windy day

I'm aware that a lot of enlisted men are those same "troublemaker kids" you'd have in high school autoshop who goofed off, seemed indecisive of where they wanted to go in life and their parents or themselves decided the military would straighten up their heavy metal days. I have no issues with that. I was in an autoshop class myself and listened to the loud stuff.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Biggest issue it that we're not retaining the people that we have.

I don't think more money is the issue. Just give them the benifits that were promised (medical and housing are always big issues) and give it to them in an excellent way (we have contracted housing on many post now which is a real hit/miss).

Second huge issue is the lack of equity in overseas tours. Several men are on their 3rd trip while others in the same MOS have never been there once. They need to do a better job of management and stop doing what is easy.

Hard to get a guy to enlist who has done 2 of the first 4 year enlistment in the sandbox while he sees that he's headed back for another while his bud nas never even been there once.

Managment would go a long ways to fixing the problem. Spend the money to keep the trained/experienced people in!

 

[Ohen Cepel]

Oh, and did you know that we're now giving comissions to non US citizens?

Not naturalized, they are non-US citizens. In some cases from red-China. People will say it's not true. However, I had one work for me so I now it's the truth.

We're training and putting bars on people that don't always have our common interest in mind.

This is the same thing that helped Rome to fall.

 

[280PLUS]

Well, 280, perhaps that was the case in the late 70's early 80's. We now have a few no loads, but the modern Navy and especially the sub force are among the most technically proficent and professional sailors around.

Well that's good to know! Don't get me wrong, we had our share of proficient sailors back then. My point is that these older guys I'm talking about went through the transition from a Navy full of draftees to a Navy full of volunteers and in their eyes the drafted Navy was better. That was their opinion, not mine, I could formulate no opinion on the subject as I had only seen the volunteer Navy. Where did most of our misfits end up? 1st Division or the Hole. Where else? Don't tell me you can't find any animals in THOSE places in your Navy today. They don't call them deck apes for nothing...

Someone else here brings up a good point about how the one's who were troublemakers usually turned out good from their time in service. Best example I have is the uncle "Pete" I mentioned in another thread around here who was a bona fide hell raiser as a kid, got drafted into the Vietnam era Army, did a tour, got a couple bronze stars and then joined the police force in Miami (Metro Dade) after he got out. Retired a few years back as "acting chief" of the whole department. Nobody would have called that one back there in about 1965.



Here's a little something I received from a friend concerning a recent visit of the Kittyhawk to Yokosuka. Sounds like things haven't changed much in 30 years to me...

One quick one... The Kitty is in, they had 125 incidents Sunday night- everything from D&D to jumping turnstiles at the train station to crapping in the bushes in front of the club at the main gate (caught on film for all to see), to stabbing a sailor from another ship over a hooker... soooooo....

They lock down the waterfront- secure ALL liberty for everyone.

Monday night, a bunch of the trouble makers on Kitty get blanket parties from their shipmates- 3 guys to the hospital

 

[Nehemiah Scudder]

Spartacus, I agree, but unfortunately, no one in power thinks we should be anything less than a world empire.

Did you hear the American Enterprise Institute's speech/discussion on C-SPAN last week? They were talking about sub-contracting the war(s) out to other countries. All of the benefits of empire, without any of the drawbacks of empire.

You have to wonder what country would go along with that plan, though.

Edited because I remembered it wasn't CATO (who is skittish about the war, and presumably other wars). It was the AEI. Still, it was a helluva thing to listen too.

 

[odysseus]

Did you hear the CATO Institute's speech/discussion on C-SPAN last week? They were talking about sub-contracting the war(s) out to other countries. All of the benefits of empire, without any of the drawbacks of empire.

Yeah... Sounds like Roman times.

 

[280PLUS]

Napolean had the right idea. He just conquered countries, conscripted their armies and made THEM do all his dirty work for him. That's why when he was retreating from Moscow and his armies were being decimated, he didn't care BECAUSE THEY WEREN"T FRENCH!

Now we just call it "sub-contracting" yea, that's it, we'll sub out the war

 

[drinks]

Draft

You know, we could just stay home, mind our own business and stop adventuring around the world.
It would be worth a try, except the present fascist regime and the previous and following socio- commie one worlder regimes would not be able to advance their programs in that case.
Don

 

[Art Eatman]

drinks, I don't think it's too far off the mark to consider the Balkans as "adventuring", but by and large the rest of our overseas military doings are a long way from that...

That doesn't mean I wouldn't relocate some of what I consider the non-adventuring units to CONUS. There are quite a few units that would serve us better in Afghanistan and Iraq, after re-training.

We're now paying the penalty for drawing down the active services too far, and over-using the Reserves and the Guard--to the detriment of all. Our men should not have to be involuntarily extended or re-rotated back to the MidEast--and wouldn't, had we sufficient active-duty numbers.

Art

 

[280PLUS]

And let's not forget the recent info released by the Army that shows a 25% gap in enlistment quotas vs actual enlistments.

 

[DRZinn]

We're now paying the penalty for drawing down the active services too far

Hear, hear! Peace dividend, my eye!