Strained US Army relaxes new officer requirements

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I've always thought this would be a good idea. EVERYBODY gets a turn. Isn't this policy in places like Canada and the UK? Mandatory service for all?

we are citizens of a government that we employ, not subjects of a government that owns us. Do you REALLY want to provide an endless supply of cannon fodder to an administration obsessed with impetuous wars of indignation?

Let me know when they find Saddam's missing weapons of mass destruction...
 
Do you REALLY want to provide an endless supply of cannon fodder to an administration obsessed with impetuous wars of indignation?

Not my intent at all, I just think you appreciate something more if you've put a piece of yourself into it. One thing I've felt ever since returning from my first tour overseas is that the vast majority of U.S. citizens have no appreciation of how really good they have it here. A tour overseas is a real eye opener in most cases. I know these people coming back from "playing" in the sandbox will have a whole new outlook on life in the U.S.

Besides, with EVERYBODY'S kid in the military wouldn't you think that more of the adult population would be paying closer attention to what Uncle Sam is doing with their boys and girls and participate more fully in the system we have in place? I'd bet at least a few parents would quickly lose their complacency when it's their own little Johnny or Janey on the line. They would quickly realize that freedom really IS not free.

Let me know when they find Saddam's missing weapons of mass destruction...
Am I the only one that figures if there WERE WMD that given the year or so that Saddam knew we were coming they might have been MOVED OUT OF IRAQ? Some people like to point to Syria.

You know, another thing, have you noticed that a lot of these other "aggressor" countries, by example of Iraq, have figured out that we really do mean business and have lightened up on a lot of their crap? Libya comes to mind. Syria pulling out of Lebanon. That all works for me until someone has a better plan. That and 8 million Iraqis with purple fingers.

Then too, if we talk the talk but our strained military can't walk the walk, where are we then?

5 tours in Iraq? That's no way to keep retention up. :banghead:
 
+1 on 280's comments!

I did nine deployments overseas plus a whole bunch of detachments during 21 years in the Navy and I still get overseas on a regular basis working with the Navy. The kids are coming back with a different outlook on life, much like we did after Nam...

Spartacus2002 your comment is a little over the top, as I KNOW the troops and sailors DON"T consider themselves cannon fodder. They believe in what they are doing and are doing the best job they can under the restrictions in place. As for your other comment- go read this link

http://www.political-news.org/breaking/11499/white-house-downplays-missing-arms-report.html
 
As a former US Navy "deck ape" and current productive member of society, even when I was amongst the "dregs" of the First Division aboard a tin can, I knew that, THANK GOD, some guys I knew from high school that had gotten into the Army, weren't within 1500 miles of my ship with its dangerous equipment and large electrical and flammables loads contained in cramped and interdependent systems and spaces. :cool: Historically, the other services have always been able to be more selective than the Army because when it gets right down to it, small arms aren't as quick to kill when accidentally misused or improperly maintained as say, is dropping an armed 1000 pound bomb on the deck or swamping a landing craft full of Marines 300 yards offshore.

Interservice rivalry aside, ANYONE who gets in the Army is a better man (or woman) than the vast majority of his or her "betters" out there busy being hothouse flowers in the leftwing green houses that pass themselves off as college campuses these days.

The answer is not a draft, not because draftees haven't performed in the past, but because the draftees of today probably couldn't. Even in the "cushier" services, one has to endure hardships that most teens today are poorly equipped to deal with, especially if they didn't volunteer for it. Even in the draft era Army, the most decorated and celebrated units such as paratroopers and Rangers, were subsections of volunteers for more hazardous duty within a drafted mass army.

I take the radical position that personnel should be a much bigger part of the military's price structure than it is even now. I felt somewhat underpaid in Mr. Reagan's Navy. People risking their very lives should be paid like they are doing just that.

The pay structure should be better at the lower and middle enlisted ranks than it is and with decent jumps in pay for grade and time in service increases.

During times of war, no one in uniform should be paying income taxes to any governmental entity at any level. If huge base salary increases are not feasible, military service should be tax free even in times of peace.

Lateral transfers to meet manpower requirements should be easier. Virtually everyone in the military is interchangeable on the basics of military bearing and such general stuff. It should never be boot camp redux even if some level of retraining is required. The recipient branch should have to make very honest attempts to match occupational specialties and ranks across branches for crossovers to assuage new volunteers for combat zones that they will not be simply given the keys to the nearest truck and told to go to it.

At the same time, the two spear point services, the Army and the Marines, should have to transform themselves to become more tooth and less tail, especially the Army. To look at Army/Reserve organizational charts is to view a brass hued glimpse into Hell. All of the services are brass heavy, but I find it hard to believe a branch that features a 1:6 officer/enlisted ratio needs to lower standards when it appears that what needs to happen is a massive redeployment of the officers already in the branch and maybe train some of them to be infantry officers rather than Powerpoint Rangers..
 
I'll mention that a draft is terrible economics. You take some whiz kid genius who is designing the next Windows or whatever and put him in the Army, depriving the civillian market of a very efficient and productive person.
Training all those people is expensive--another reason to oppose it.

And yes, the draft thing was created by the political left as a scare tactic against Bush. This is indisputable.
 
Army was seeking 300 currently enlisted soldiers and 300 civilians with college degrees, up to age 42, to enter Officer Candidate School.

Wifey and I saw that on the news the other night. She immediately said "hey, you are now eligible to join up, ever think about a career change? I can get rid of you for awhile" :uhoh:

:D
 
Boats,

Sorry about the deck ape comment, it was used in the heat of the moment :p

You can call me a "Monkey's Mate" if you'd like... :D

She immediately said "hey, you are now eligible to join up, ever think about a career change? I can get rid of you for awhile"

Funny, I say, "Well honey I can't take it anymore. I'm going back in the service." She says, "SEE YA!!" :eek: :uhoh:
 
Interservice rivalry aside, ANYONE who gets in the Army is a better man (or woman) than the vast majority of his or her "betters" out there busy being hothouse flowers in the leftwing green houses that pass themselves off as college campuses these days.

I don't think so.

The hot house flowers as you call them, are busy becomming business owners and creating jobs that will provide the jobs for the people comming out.

6 kids who went to school with my grandaughter went into the service because they graduated high school by the skin on their teeth and couldn't get a job and had no skills. This is much more common than you think.

Judge;
Okay son, you have a choice. Jail or the Army. That's quality for you.
 
I expect that within 20 yrs we will solve our lack of recruitment through outsourcing. Just like our companies can move to the third world and set up factories staffed with cheap labor, the military could cheaply recruit foreign fighters to serve under our flag. The idea was recently floated by one of the think tanks in Washington. It will be interesting to see someone push for this idea, but I believe it will happen. It eliminates the problem of the draft, poor recruitment, and will also lower cost.

It will also mean the death of our Republic, but no one cares much about those kind of details.
 
one has to endure hardships that most teens today are poorly equipped to deal with, especially if they didn't volunteer for it.
The last phrase ". . . especially if they didn't volunteer for it" . . . is especially relevant. I believe a true volunteer will be the best GI - motivated, and there because he wants to be.

Draftees will be good soldiers, too, if there's a WWII scenario, where our country has been directly attacked and everyone knows we're fighting full-out, no holds barred, to win. (Note that in WWII once we had the A-bomb, we used it.) Millions of GIs proved this from 1941-1945..

Draft someone to put their life at risk in a lesser conflict, or just to do some PC-type international public relations crap, and I think you'll have a large number of very poor soldiers - and that's among the conscripts who show up at all.
 
feedthehogs wrote:

The hot house flowers as you call them, are busy becomming business owners and creating jobs that will provide the jobs for the people comming out.

6 kids who went to school with my grandaughter went into the service because they graduated high school by the skin on their teeth and couldn't get a job and had no skills. This is much more common than you think.

Judge;
Okay son, you have a choice. Jail or the Army. That's quality for you.


That last part is largely an urban legend.

In any event, the true measure is not of what goes in the front gate of the base or the campus, but in what people become for the experience. For many, the military is transformative. So too is college, but in many cases, the change there is for the worse. Meet many MFA holders out there becoming the captains of industry? I don't, they are usually playing the bongos in the park in an annoying fashion. At best, many of them are the types who nurse cups of coffee all day wondering why employers don't want their advanced degreed selves. :rolleyes:

Since there is not much in the way of trade apprenticeship in this country any longer, the military is still a very good option to acquire marketable skills without need for a degree, not that one cannot pick up a sheepskin along the way if one desires it enough.
 
The draft sucks as a long-term solution. It only works in extreme crises (e.g. world wars), when you could get mountains of volunteers anyway. Nobody in the military wants a draft, which should be a pretty good hint that it is a bad idea. ;)

6 kids who went to school with my grandaughter went into the service because they graduated high school by the skin on their teeth and couldn't get a job and had no skills. This is much more common than you think.

Judge;
Okay son, you have a choice. Jail or the Army. That's quality for you.

I'll put this nicely: you are extremely ignorant when it comes to the subject you are trying to discuss. But in fairness, writing off the people in the military as the scum of the earth is not an uncommon prejudice. In fact, once you get past the yellow ribbon bumper stickers, it is quite widespread and deeply ingrained in alot of folks. But that could be a whole other topic all by itself.
 
I'll point out that just because someone didnt do well in school does not mean he will be a poor soldier, or anything else. Schools are set up to teach a very specific segment some very specific skills. Anyone who falls outside of those will not do well in school but may end up doing fine in real life.
I certainly think the Army gives a lot of opportunity to people who have not done well in school or are lacking other resources. That doesnt make them dumb or bad soldiers. It is that the Army does not teach and train like a school does and some people will respond better to that.
 
So too is college, but in many cases, the change there is for the worse.

That reminds me of the parking lot at UHART I saw once the morning after the first day of the new semester. Empty beer, liquor and wine bottles everywhere. I mean EVERYWHERE! Unbelievable. Musta been a HECK of a party. I went to college after the service, I felt like I was the only one there who actually took it serious. Of course, I was footing the bill too.

I remember once, I was getting really good grades on the Physical Science tests and really fouling up the "curve" so nobody could get many bonus points. Evrybody else was like 10 points behind me. So I was approached by several class members and asked to please not do so good on the final so the rest of them could get more extra points. See, the teacher would take the highest grade and make it a 100 and everybody else got the same number of points added to their test grade. Got me a 98 on the final. Screwed up one question on "subduction" :eek:

:D
 
I was a curve buster in college but not in law school. :D Nevertheless, it was a difficult situation for me in college because of all the silly angst and petty issues that "kids," who were my contemporaries or mostly four years younger at most, were constantly annoying me with. Draftees would be soft and fragile for the most part. As a former volunteer, I'd want nothing to do with them.
 
The sad part was that it was simple science that anybody smart enough to be in "college" should have no problems with. I'd already had most of it in High School which is why I was abke to do so well. I know what you're saying about the age difference, same for me. I was the "old guy", I think I was about 25 when I started. Tough sitting in classes full of 18 Y.O.'s.

Well, except for the girls... :evil:

:D

Gee, I just remembered anothe college story. We were dicussing a novel in which by inference the heroine apparently turns an evil deed near the end. She takes an old guy to bed and insists on leaving the lights on and the curtains open. Lo and behold pictures of the soiree surface and are used to blackmail the old guy. I point out that the pictures weren't possible unless the lights were on. I'm a little older now and by this time I've got 2 kids. One of the 19 y.o. lovelys chimes in, "You can make love with the lights on."

I'm like, "Uh, I'm pretty sure I know that."

LOL...
 
I happen to think someone who becomes a good soldier, sailor, airman, or marine makes a fine citizen upon their return to civilian life.

Most teenagers could use a little (or a lot) of structure, discipline, adversity, and leadership opportunity even if they just take what they learned into the world after one hitch. I know I did.
 
+1 on that Boats!!!!

My daughters both said they "learned" a lot just by being around the military growing up- Little things like maturity, responsibility and that the "real world" was much larger than their little world. My youngest is 22 but said she feels "old" compared to the folks in the law office she works with- She has told me they don't understand that US is not the center of the world, and that not everyone is nice and clean and upstanding :evil:
 
I happen to think someone who becomes a good soldier, sailor, airman, or marine makes a fine citizen upon their return to civilian life.

Most teenagers could use a little (or a lot) of structure, discipline, adversity, and leadership opportunity even if they just take what they learned into the world after one hitch. I know I did.
I agree wholeheartedly. But that's not the standard by which to judge the success of a draft. A draft is instituted in order to provide more recruits for the military than would otherwise volunteer. Its sucess would be measured by whether or not the military would function better with the draftees than without.

I suppose if all you needed was cannon fodder, then (as a purely practical matter) draftees might fill the bill. But in today's military you need smart, loyal, dedicated people who believe in what they are doing. Draftees would fit only the first adjective, and even that seldom.
 
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