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Strasbourg Test Results

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by cratz2, Feb 2, 2004.

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  1. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Strasbourg Results

    LOAD MV AIT IT-1 IT-2 IT-3 IT-4 IT-5 SD

    .45 AUTO 5" BARREL


    MagSafe 96gr +P 1622 4.68 4.4 4.2 4.8R 6.8R 3.2R 1.32
    Glaser 140gr Blue 1355 4.72 2.1 3.5 6.6R 8.3R 3.1R 2.61
    R-P 185gr JHP +P 1124 7.98 9.6R 10.8R 3.9 4.6 11.0R 3.46
    Fed 230 Hydra-Shok 847 8.40 5.5 7.5R 11.7R 12.9R 4.4 3.75
    CorBon 185 JHP +P 1156 8.56 6.6R 11.4R 8.0R 13.2R 3.6 3.82
    W-W 185 Silver Tip 1004 8.82 12.9R 9.6R 6.1 4.1 11.4R 3.66
    ECC 185 Starfire 924 8.88 6.2 5.4 10.9R 12.1R 9.8R 2.94
    CCI 200gr JHP Lawman 936 8.90 8.9R 12.6R 4.9 9.3R 8.9R 2.73
    W-W 230 BlackTalon 829 9.14 7.6 10.7R 9.8R 11.8R 5.8 2.42
    CorBon 200 JHP +P 1043 9.22 10.4R 11.6R 11.5R 4.9 7.7 2.88
    Fed 185 JHP 1011 9.24 7.3 12.0R 12.4R 8.6R 5.9 2.87
    Hornady 185gr XTP-HP 939 10.66 6.8R 11.2 9.9R 12.3R 13.1R 2.47
    Fed 230 FMJ (cont.) 839 13.84 14.1R 17.3R 12.9 10.2 14.7R 2.59

    .40 S&W 4" BARREL

    MagSafe 84gr Defender 1753 4.52 2.4 7.7R 3.3R 4.0R 5.2R 2.05
    Glaser 105gr Blue 1449 5.34 8.9R 3.9R 4.2 7.5R 2.2 2.76
    W-W 155 Silver Tip 1210 7.86 9.7 9.9R 8.6R 6.3R 4.8 2.23
    Fed 155gr JHP 1142 7.90 10.1R 8.6R 8.9 4.5 7.4R 2.13
    Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 991 8.32 7.7 4.6 9.6R 9.2R 10.5R 2.31
    R-P 255gr JHP 1136 8.40 4.8 8.8R 10.3R 8.2 9.9R 2.18
    CorBon 150gr JHP 1183 8.42 11.1R 7.8R 9.1 9.5R 4.6 2.44
    CorBon 180gr JHP 1044 8.66 9.6R 5.6 10.2R 9.0R 8.9 1.79
    W-W 180gr BlackTalon 989 8.86 9.4 8.7R 7.8R 8.4 10.0R 0.86
    R-P 180 JHP 988 8.90 8.5R 8.4 6.6R 10.1R 10.9R 1.67
    CCI 155gr JHP Blaser 992 8.92 7.2 11.0R 10.3R 6.5 9.6R 1.97
    Hornady 155gr XTP-HP 1157 10.38 11.2R 10.9R 13.1R 8.5 8.2 2.04
    W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1118 13.76 13.9 16.3R 10.9 16.6R 11.1 2.73

    10mm Auto 4.25" Bbl.

    MagSafe 96gr Defender 1729 4.48 3.8 4.9R 5.3R 1.8 6.6R 1.80
    Fed 155gr JHP 1311 7.56 8.8R 9.9R 11R 3.4 4.7 3.33
    Glaser 105gr Blue 1624 7.60 10.5R 6.8R 9.8R 4.8 6.1 2.45
    Corbon 150 JHP +P 1286 7.66 4.1 8.9R 8.6R 6.5R 10.2R 2.39
    W-W 175 SilverTip 1267 7.92 7.7R 4.4 9.2 8.4R 9.9R 2.13
    Corbon 180gr JHP +P 1155 7.94 2.9 3.3 10.6R 9.8R 13.1R 4.59
    Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 995 8.22 5.3 10.7R 4.3 11.6R 9.2 3.26
    R-P 180 JHP 1202 8.26 8.7R 7.3 10.2R 8.5 6.6R 1.39
    ECC 180 Starfire 955 8.38 6.1 9.4R 10.4R 11.1R 4.9 2.73
    Fed 180 JHP 1018 8.46 10.4R 8.8R 7.8R 3.2 12.1R 3.36
    W-W 200 Black Talon 986 8.76 11.6R 5.6 8 6.1 12.5R 3.15
    R-P 180 JHP * 996 8.88 5.5 10.8R 7.6R 11.9R 8.6 2.55
    CCI 180 JHP 1133 8.96 10.6R 9.7R 8.4R 6 10.1 1.84
    Hornady 200 XTP-HP 1121 10.22 8.7 7.5 13.5R 9.7R 11.7R 2.39
    W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1103 13.98 17.4R 13.3R 11.6 16R 11.6R 2.63

    .357 Mag 4" Barrel

    Quik-Shok 1409 4.40 1.9 1.4 7.9R 2.2 8.6R 3.53
    MagSafe 68gr SWAT 1757 4.62 9.9R 1.7 2.1 1.9R 7.5R 3.82
    Glaser 80gr Blue 1687 4.82 3.3 9.1R 2.9R 6.7R 2.1 2.97
    R-P 125 JHP 1458 7.34 10.4R 4.8 9.8R 8.6R 3.1 3.22
    Fed 125gr JHP 1442 7.44 2.9 2.2 11.9R 11.5R 8.7R 4.64
    CorBon 125gr JHP 1419 7.66 11.8R 3.3 11.6R 7.4 4.2 3.99
    Fed 110gr JHP 1351 7.72 5.7 13.8R 2.9 5.7 10.5R 4.36
    W-W 125gr JHP 1382 7.76 14.2R 6.4 3.6 3.8 10.8R 4.62
    CCI 125gr JHP Lawman 1367 7.78 12.6R 10.8R 3.9 6.0 5.6 3.72
    Fed 158gr Hydra-Shok 1213 7.84 8.6R 3.3 9.3R 7.3R 10.7R 2.82
    W-W 145 SilverTip 1285 7.86 3.7 14.1R 9.5R 3.4 8.6R 4.45
    R-P 110gr JHP 1334 7.90 9.4R 13.0R 4.1 8.7R 4.3 3.75
    R-P 125gr JHP 1277 7.94 8.9R 4.2 13.3R 9.4R 3.9 3.94
    W-W 110gr JHP 1281 7.98 4.5 11.2R 11.8R 3.8 8.6R 3.71
    CCI 140gr JHP Lawman 1322 8.06 10.8R 4.5 12.0R 3.2 9.8R 3.95
    Fed 158gr JHP 1205 8.28 11.6R 8.7R 8.5 9.1R 3.5 2.95
    R-P 158gr JHP 1220 8.30 13.9R 4.3 9.4R 5.9 8.0 3.69
    W-W 158gr JHP 1246 8.34 4.0 8.9 11.4R 7.2 10.2 2.88
    Fed 158gr Nyclad HP 1188 8.42 8.9R 10.0R 4.5 9.0R 9.7R 2.24
    CCI 158gr JHP Lawman 1221 8.48 8.7 4.9 10.6R 9.4R 8.8 2.14
    Hornady 125 XTP-HP 1314 10.88 8.6 6.8 11.4R 14.0R 13.6R 3.13
    R-P 158gr JSP (cont.) 1224 12.80 15.8R 12.8R 14.1R 7.6 13.7R 3.10

    .38 Special 4" Barrel

    Glaser 80gr +P Blue 1667 4.72 9.4R 6.3R 1.8 4.4R 1.7 3.25
    MagSafe 65 +P+ MAX 1841 4.76 2.4 8.9R 1.7 2.5 8.3R 3.53
    CorBon 115 JHP +P 1243 8.98 12.2R 9.8R 14.1R 5.4 3.4 4.51
    W-W 158gr LHP +P 996 10.76 8.8 9.1 12.9R 10.0R 13.0R 2.05
    Fed 158gr LHP +P 982 10.80 12.5R 9.6 9.7R 14.1R 8.1 2.44
    Fed 129 Hydra-Shok +P 951 10.84 13.3R 12.7R 11.6R 8.4 8.2 2.40
    Rem 158gr LHP +P 924 10.86 9.5 13.6R 9.0 11.3R 10.9R 1.80
    ECC 125gr Starfire 946 10.88 11.4R 9.1 8.7 13.4R 11.8R 1.96
    Fed 125gr JHP +P 998 10.92 9.9 13.7R 11.8R 9.9R 9.3 1.82
    W-W 110gr JHP +P 1136 11.02 14.4R 8.8 9.6 9.8 12.5R 2.35
    CCI 125 JHP +P Lawman 947 11.36 10.9R 11.8R 13.4R 10.6 10.1 1.30
    R-P 95gr JHP +P 1138 11.38 10.5 10.7R 9.8 11.9R 14.0R 1.65
    W-W 110gr JHP +P 999 11.66 9.4 11.5 13.1R 12.0R 12.3R 1.39
    W-W 125gr JHP +P 938 11.70 13.1R 13.6R 10.7 9.8 11.3 1.61
    Rem 125gr JHP +P 935 11.74 8.9 10.3 14.6R 12.6R 12.3 2.20
    Hornady 125gr XTP-HP 936 14.82 14.8R 18.9R 13.7 11.6 15.1R 2.66
    Fed 158gr RNL (cont.) 708 33.68 27.7 36.2 24.1R 41.7R 38.7R 7.47

    9mm Luger 4.25" Bbl.

    MagSafe 68gr +P Police 1747 4.74 7.6R 1.8R 7.7R 2.3 4.3 2.82
    Quik-Shok 115gr +P+ 1301 4.82 9.2R 3.2 2.0R 3.3 6.4R 2.94
    Glaser 80gr Blue 1555 7.42 2.4 11.4R 9.5R 10.2R 3.6 4.11
    Fed 115 JHP +P+ (BPLE) 1311 8.90 13.3R 13.0R 7.9 4.6 5.7 4.06
    CorBon 115gr JHP +P 1333 8.92 10.9R 5.7 3.9 11.9R 12.2R 3.84
    Fed 124 Hydra-Shok +P+ 1267 8.96 7.7R 13.1R 3.6 7.6R 12.8R 4.00
    R-P 115gr JHP +P+ 1290 8.98 4.1 13.8R 9.2R 8.4R 9.4R 3.45
    W-W 115gr JHP +P+ 1288 8.98 11.9R 3.5 11.5R 14.6R 3.4 5.19
    ECC 115gr Starfire 1181 9.02 5.4 13.8R 4.1 13.2R 8.6R 4.41
    Fed 124gr Hydra-Shok 1126 9.28 11.7R 4.4 11.9R 5.1 13.3R 4.19
    Fed 124gr LHP Nyclad 1105 9.28 14.0R 9.9R 6.1 11.2R 5.2 3.64
    Fed 115gr JHP 1175 9.30 4.8 8.6R 13.9R 5.4 13.8R 4.40
    W-W 115gr SilverTip 1199 9.36 4.8 12.6R 13.4R 11.8R 4.2 4.48
    R-P 115gr JHP 1166 9.36 11.0R 10.6R 11.0R 7.3 6.9 2.07
    Fed 147gr Hydra-Shok 958 9.58 6.7 11.5R 5.3 12.0R 12.4R 3.32
    Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 1286 9.62 14.2R 7.1 13.9R 6.4 6.5 4.05
    CorBon 124gr XTP-HP +P 1258 9.66 6.9 13.7R 14.1R 7.9 5.7 3.95
    W-W 147 Black Talon 962 9.68 12.3R 12.3R 6.6 6.4 10.8R 2.97
    CCI 115gr JHP Lawman 1149 9.80 8.9 7.1 12.0R 9.9R 11.1R 1.91
    Fed 147gr JHP 979 9.84 12.5R 11.3R 13.1R 6.1 6.2 3.43
    CorBon 147gr XTP-HP +P 1093 9.86 9.0 9.6R 10.9R 7.1 12.7R 2.10
    W-W 147gr JHP 890 9.90 14.1R 8.9R 5.2 9.7R 11.6R 3.30
    Hornady 115 XTP-HP 1134 12.02 15.7R 13.3R 9.0 12.9R 9.2 2.87
    W-W 115gr FMJ (cont.) 1163 14.40 9.7 16.6R 20.1R 15.6R 10.0 4.48

    .380 ACP 3.625" Barrel

    MagSafe 60 Defender +P 1338 7.12 9.1R 7.9R 8.7R 5.1 4.8 2.03
    Glaser 70gr Blue 1313 7.94 6.6R 6.8 10.1R 8.8R 7.4 1.48
    Fed 90gr Hydra-Shok 1008 10.94 10.4R 9.9 8.2 13.0R 13.7R 2.27
    Fed 90gr JHP 1007 11.06 9.6 12.9R 11.7R 10.2 10.9R 1.29
    CorBon 90gr +P 1041 11.12 8.8 13.3R 9.7R 12.8R 11.0 1.94
    W-W 85gr SilverTip 980 12.88 11.9R 12.2R 13.8R 16.6R 9.9 2.50
    CCI 88gr JHP Blaser 965 13.40 8.9 18.0R 13.5 9.8 16.8R 4.06
    R-P 88gr JHP 996 13.46 14.5R 13.7 10.9R 14.6R 13.6 1.50
    Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 984 15.58 12.7 17.1R 15.2 19.6R 13.3 2.83
    Fed 95gr FMJ (cont.) 934 22.80 24.8R 20.7R 22.6 21.4 24.5R 1.82

    Supposedly, 160-ish lb male French Alpine goats were shot in the lungs with various cartridges and loads. AIT = Average Incapacitation Time in seconds (in bold). Subsequent times are the individual test times. If followed by an 'R', it means a rib was encountered.
     
  2. DigMe

    DigMe Member

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    Yes, we know all about it. We also know that the test is largely considered a fraud. Do a search here.

    brad cook
     
  3. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    Yes, I know... I'm familiar with the testing... I just did a search and only found most of the entires to either be spelled incorrectly or limited to one cartridge. I also didn't find any references to the individual incapacitation times, just eh averages. I just added it here, in this format, for future searches.

    I personally believe that some testing went on but the fact that the frangibles consistantly had the best times must give one pause. Assuming the testing did take place and was neutral in expectations, if there were 50 tests with each load and the results came out the same, I'd have more faith in them but with only five shots per load, the chances of the Mag-Safes almost always winning and the Glasers almost always coming in second seem pretty overwhelming. In at least one or two tests, one would think the wrong goat having a bad day would fall to the occasional JHP round more quickly than a stronger goat having a good day and perhaps a stronger desire to live would fall to a frangible.

    :)
     
  4. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    Too bad frangibles have all too often failed when used against human targets as opposed to nonexistent animals.
     
  5. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    cratz2 - Don't let 'em get your goat.

    John
     
  6. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    What is the basis for this belief, given that there has been no evidence to support the existence of these tests except the results posted?
     
  7. DigMe

    DigMe Member

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    Oh ok, my bad. I thought you were posting them as breaking news or something. :D

    brad cook
     
  8. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

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    The Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy said the tests were real.

    The Easter Bunny left me some MagSafe's in a plastic egg and the Tooth Fairy left me one Glaser Silver and one Glaser Blue when I lost a tooth once.

    They both couldn't be wrong could they? Maybe I'd better ask Santa.






    What really gets me is that, considering all of the manpower needed to wrangle all of those rare goats, not to mention all that were needed to drag off the carcasses, plus all the people needed to butcher them to recover the bullets, that NOBODY remembered to bring a camera?

    There are people who claim to have blurry photos of Bigfoot or the Lockness Monster but no one has ever come forward and claimed to have any photos from "Stressberg".

    Does that seem odd to anyone else?
     
  9. Hal

    Hal Member

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    We have a winner!!!
    (great play on words)
     
  10. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Even assuming the tests WERE real (they werent) what does shooting goats have to do with shooting people? We arent all that similiar in construction. Yeah they SOMEHOW managed to find 600 goats all withing the average human weight. But there is mroe to it than weight. The arrangment of vital organs is such in a goat that a shot through the torso can hit dang near every one of them at once. People just arent built that way.
     
  11. cratz2

    cratz2 Member

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    OK... OK... It can be pick on me day! :D

    I just posted it here because regardless of if the imformation is truthful or not or factual or not, some people will seek out that information. I was merely presenting it here in an easy to find manner for future seekers... that's it! No more and no less.

    But on the topic of frangibles, I personally have a lot more faith in the Glasers than in the MagSafes. Never used the Quick Shoks at all. If used in a setting such as an apartment complex or in holder WWII-era homes, I think several rounds of Glasers from something like a 686 would be effective enough on a bad guy to at least slow him down or make him put his arms up in a defensive manner so you could easily place a couple rounds of full house 158 gr LSWCJHPs into him. :)

    And on that note, I'm done! :p
     
  12. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    Personally, when evaluating what load I should use in a defensive and/or concealed carry weapon, I think that the Strossberg Bum Tests were shown to mimic reality closest. After all, how many goats do you expect to defend yourself against?
     
  13. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    "Justin... that was Baaaaaaaad."
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Nick96

    Nick96 Member

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    As I recall, weren't these original Strasbourg tests done 10+ years ago? I suppose there is some value to shooting dumb goats who didn't know what was coming. But if I had to compare Strasbourg Results to the M&S statistics, I think I'd have to lean towards the M&S stats. At least "thinking" (and in some cases drug enhanced) animals were the test subjects there.

    This whole subject of OSS's with handgun cartridges has gotten entirely too confusing for me. As far as I can determine (of the the most popular handgun cartridges) most any .357, .40 or .45 has an edge over .38's and 9MM's. Down scale somewhat are .32's & 380's. .22's & .25's may do in a pinch, but something larger would be better given a choice. This followed with a long & heavy stick, substantial knife, fist sized rock then bare knuckles and teeth.

    I suppose the bottom line is the best round is the one you have loaded in the delivery vehicle available at the time it's needed.

    cratz2 - please don't take any offence here. Thank you for taking the time & effort to compile these stats. The broad conclusion I get from reviewing this information is that bullets traveling at high velosity and bust up on impact are best. Unfortunatally, such rounds aren't in common usage for a variety of reasons. Then, hollow point bullets (mediun to large diameter) traveling at high speed are most effective. This is followed by large diameter solid bullets traveling at moderate speed. I think most tests completed on handgun cartridges pretty much ends up with these general results.
     
  15. Brigrat

    Brigrat Member

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    AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not again!
     
  16. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    Goat Lab

    I don't know if Stasbourg tests ever occurred outside the realm of a fevered gun-writer's mind.

    What I do know is that SOF medics have, on occasion, participated in highly realistic training OVERSEAS where some goat or ten were given some sort of wound like a medic would find on a buddy during battle. The medic would then attempt to stabilize the unlucky goat, using his training (the medic's, not the goat's). After the exercise, the goat was put out of his misery and rendered inedible or unattractive for eating by the locals.

    Pretty good training for those medics who can't manage a tour through some of America's busiest trauma hospitals.

    Now, goats being the preferred animal for such training might tell us something:
    1. Goats have an exceptionally weak union, to allow them to work in such conditions
    2. Goats are fairly common
    3. Goats are close enough to human anatomy to make such an exercise worthwhile
    4. Goats are cheap enough for the supply SGT or CWO to buy enough of them for the unit's medics to train on without having to leave behind documentation as to where/when/for what purpose the goats were purchased

    Of course were any such thing to occur CONUS, one could expect the protests against the School of the Americas to be dwarfed in comparison.

    Oh, one last thing about these (fictitious?) Strastbourg tests: if they were done 10+ years ago, I suspect their utility today, with today's munitions to be extremely limited.

    OK, this really is the last thing...who was it that sprung the Strasbourg test on the gun-rag-reading public, way back in the day? Why hasn't that person been grilled as to his connection to the goatly fun & games?
     
  17. Balog

    Balog Member

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    I found this comment hilarious. G/J :D
     
  18. BluesBear

    BluesBear member

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    Oh really?
    What about:

    CCI/Speer Gold Dots

    Remington Golden Sabre

    Winchester SXT

    Federal EFMJ

    Shall I go on?

    Gunkid, it would seem that there have been quite a few new bullets developed since that ficticious goat fiasco.
     
  19. stans

    stans Member

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    No proof these tests actually occurred. Of course, there is no proof that UFO's do or do not exsist.
     
  20. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    Magsafe believes in the goat tests !!!! Straight from their site:


    "MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS

    The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered).

    MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang.

    The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender.

    However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load!"
     
  21. DigMe

    DigMe Member

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    I believe both are equally flawed.

    brad cook
     
  22. Shawn Dodson

    Shawn Dodson Member

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    There's no credible evidence I'm aware of to show these tests were ever performed.

    But, for the sake of argument, let's assume they did. The test method represents extreme best case conditions -- a clear, unobstructed shot to the upper torso.

    Now if we were to complicate things just a little bit by putting an arm in the way (or something to simulate an arm, such as a 4-5 inch thick block of ordnance gelatin) to obstruct the bullet's path to the torso, the limitations of many top rated loads will be quickly realized, which will produce a substantial decrease in performance (as Nick96 alluded to in his post).
     
  23. George Hill

    George Hill Member

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    Hoax meant to sell Ammunition and Gun Magazines.

    The key factor in any scientific testing testing is that the tests are reproducable and would yeild the same results as given.
    This is not the case with these tests. If they were credible every SWAT team out there would be packing Glazers and Magsafes. Again, this is not the case.
     
  24. stans

    stans Member

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    By the way, no goats were harmed in this post.:D
     
  25. JohnBT

    JohnBT Member

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    Maybe the goats just fainted...

    www.faintinggoat.com

    International Fainting Goat Association. Really. Saw this in a post quoting Mr. Fackler IIRC.


    John
     
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