Straw purchase? SORRY

[Carl N. Brown]

If someone proposed a questionable sell/trade to me, if it smelled or felt bad, I would find (or invent) a local, legal, uncomplicated buyer/seller, sorry a relative or local club member made a better offer.

 

[Frank Ettin]

IMHO, it is a strawman purchase, since the buyer has specifically stated that he is not the actual buyer....

That's kind of a stretch. The "Abramski straw purchase" violation is specifically a violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), which is specifically making a material misrepresentation to a dealer. And a buyer in another State isn't necessarily a prohibited person. It's just that certain formalities need to be followed for the transfer to be kosher.

So it appears to me that the real, underlying violation here is the unlawful transfer across state lines.

 

[Frank Ettin]

... I legitimately did not know the specifics of how the OP could be guilty of a criminal act in this instance....

Then all you needed to do was simply ask a question:

...if the transaction between the seller and buyer is lawful, does it make any difference legally?
...

Instead, you chose to expound on your theory of the case:

• ...Seller isn't taking buyer's money and then shipping handgun out of state to a different individual; he's transferring to a resident of the same state in a legal FTF sale....

  
  

• ...Seems to me what the buyer does after that is none of the seller's business from a legal standpoint....

Asking is one thing. Arguing is another. And it appears that some folks got it from post 3.

In any case, it's no secret that I tend to have little patience; and I am abrasive. Nothing new about that.

 

[morcey2]

IMHO, it is a strawman purchase, since the buyer has specifically stated that he is not the actual buyer and that he intends to deliver it to someone who is not eligible to buy it from you, being from out of state. "Straw man" sales are not limited to licensed dealers.

It may be described (informally) as a strawman purchase because the buyer stated he's not the actual buyer. However, it doesn't meet the legal definition of a straw purchase.* In order for that to happen, there has to be a false statement on a Form 4473, specifically question 11(a). Without that step, it can't meet the legal definition of a straw purchase and the original buyer isn't conducting a illegal straw purchase. Since there isn't an FFL involved, there is no 4473 filled out, thus no straw purchase. As for the rest of the transaction, that's a whole other story. Still doesn't pass the smell test.

Matt

* from http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=8706822&postcount=23

The actual offense is violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), making a false statement on the 4473 (specifically about who is the actual buyer)...

 

[armedwalleye]

At the end of the day, it's still your gun. You set the rules, the buyer chooses whether to comply or walk. Your legality and safety can be your only concern.

 

[Snyper]

LEO's are exempt from purchase permits:

The requirement for obtaining a permit before purchasing or receiving a handgun does not
apply to law enforcement officers of North Carolina, who are authorized by law to carry
firearms. To use such an exemption, however, the law enforcement officer must identify
him/herself to the seller of the handgun as being a law enforcement officer authorized to carry
firearms, and provide any of the following:
1. A letter signed by the officer's superior officer stating the officer is authorized to
carry a firearm;
2. A current photographic identification card issued by the officer's employer;
3. A current photographic identification card issued by a State agency that identifies the
officer as State law enforcement; or
4. A current identification card from the officer's employer and one other form of
photographic identification.
N.C. Gen. Stat. § 14-404(d).

 

[Snyper]

In any case, it's no secret that I tend to have little patience; and I am abrasive. Nothing new about that.

Nothing "high road" about it either.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Best policy. If you aren't sure don't do it.

Everything I sell goes through an FFL. Cheap insurance my friend.

 

[danez71]

Huh...

I've always found Frank to treat me fairly and patiently, even when I'm wrong and probably should have known better.

I suspect he isn't into gamesmanship much, though.

 

[BSA1]

In carefully reading the O.P.s original post he does not say the other two people are exchanging money only that Deputy A is going to buy the gun and ship it to Dad. This could be a gift which makes the son the actual buyer.

Of course this may be a mute point as this is a private sale and of course the need of a FFL dealer in the other state remains.

 

[MIL-DOT]

He could have just purchased the weapon, and done what he wanted, but the fact that the buyer volunteered so much unsolicited info about his intentions, which smacked of 'straw purchase' whether it technically was or not, would've aroused my suspicion.
I like to wheel & deal a little on the local used market, but I've backed out of a few deals that tweaked my Spydie senses.
These days you gotta go the extra mile to cross all the "T's", as they'll happily make a life-wrecking federal case out of the most piddly damned stuff.

 

[rcmodel]

First thing to ask is, how do you know

he's 'a deputy from GA contact me and say his son (a deputy in my state) was going to buy my handgun and ship it to him.

How do you know it isn't Deputy Dawg, and his son Deputy Dawg Jr.?

Go through a legal FFL dealer transfer, or don't go through at all!!

rc

 

[yugorpk]

Former 02/07 SOT and 01/08 licensee for a decade . Frank is 100% correct. No "cop exemption" for any of this. My dealings with local Law Enforcement never failed to surprise me how much they either flat didn't care about , or didn't know about or felt that federal firearms transfer laws didn't apply to them. Good people doing a crappy job but sometimes...

 

[oldschool45]

If you are having a hard time finding a buyer offer to drop your price by the cost of the FFL transfer fees and eat or split the shipping. If the "buyer" won't agree to that walk away from the sale. The potential cost to you personally is too high otherwise.
We all know how the buyer(s?) should have handled this but its not in the spirit of this board.

 

[dranrab]

Just enough concern to scare me out of it. Guns are easy to sell. You'll find another buyer.

 

[GAF]

After reading this thread my take is, JUST DON'T DO IT!!!

To much grey area for me .

 

[lpsharp88]

As others have said, there's enough gray area to cast some doubt on the legality of this transaction. If it were me, I'd find another buyer. I'd rather hang on to the gun for a little bit longer than risk becoming a convicted criminal, jail time, loss of 2a rights, etc.

 

[Old Shooter]

Sell the gun to someone else. I could be the local hood rat and call you up saying I am the police chief of local town USA, my son a cop in your area will be picking up the gun but it is really for me. You said you are not a dealer, is selling one gun worth the risk?

 

[200Apples]

Nothing "high road" about it either.

Oh, for crying out loud. I wish the grown men here would stop whining about Mr. Ettin's delivery. The time he takes to post what he does is not insignificant. I consider his knowledge of firearms law and his presence here an real asset to THR, regardless of his tone. I find it succinct and to the point.

 

[HexHead]

I'd go with "I don't sell to cops. Good day, sir" and be done with it.

The whole deal smells like yesterday's fish.