Striker fired +1

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Voland

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I have a Kahr PM9, a striker fired pistol, but I am afraid of carrying with the chamber loaded and "cocked"... I know that cops and non LE carry +1 all the time with no problems but something in the back of my mind tells me its a bad idea.

This is coming up because I've seen a lot of new gang tags in my area including MS13 plus a lot of reports of home invasions and general crimes against people. So I think if anything was to go down, I would not have the two seconds it would take to pull the pistol out of the holster and rack the slide.

Some one convince me that I am crazy?!?! Should I keep carrying Israeli carry like I've been?

Thanks everyone!
V.
 
I have one myself. It is not "cocked" unless and until you pull the trigger all the way through its stroke. Furthermore, this is a little gun with a stiff recoil spring, and I would not count on being able to execute a fumble-free slide rack under life-threatening stress. It is also too small to make a good bludgeon or throwing object. :p
 
Do you carry revolvers fully loaded? A striker fired pistol is, in practice, a mechanical equivalent.
safer, in fact, as a revolver must have the trigger pulled while manually lowering the hammer to de-cock before it can be unloaded, not so with an autoloader. No striker-fired pistol will fire unless the trigger is pulled, which is what you want to have happen when you pull it.
 
Heh, yeah... it is kinda small for a bludgeoning tool...

Ok, just did some more research... It sounds like the firing pin in a striker fired pistol is under spring tension until it is released by pulling the trigger. I imagine it has a fairly good locking mechanism to prevent it from firing when dropped and what not...

Sort of like this animation...
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2361&d=1048912369

I think I feel a little better... Still a little fearful...
 
So I think if anything was to go down, I would not have the two seconds it would take to pull the pistol out of the holster and rack the slide.
You've partially answered your own question. This is one of my objections to carrying chamber empty. My other is that it takes both hands and you don't always have both hands available. Your other hand/arm may be holding a package, a baby, etc.; you may need a free hand to push the attacker off or strike him; or you might have been already wounded (cut, stabbed, bludgeoned or even shot).

... It sounds like the firing pin in a striker fired pistol is under spring tension until it is released by pulling the trigger. I imagine it has a fairly good locking mechanism to prevent it from firing when dropped and what not...
Correct, and in the case of the Kahr, the striker is only half cocked when the trigger is forward and the striker reset, so it is not really under that much spring tension. This does differ from guns like the Springfield XD, whose striker is fully cocked and pulling the trigger only releases it.
 
Correct, and in the case of the Kahr, the striker is only half cocked when the trigger is forward and the striker reset, so it is not really under that much spring tension. This does differ from guns like the Springfield XD, whose striker is fully cocked and pulling the trigger only releases it.
And even with an XD, there are two passive devices preventing unwanted firing - grip and trigger safeties.
Do the Kahrs have an indication that would tell you the striker had discharged? You could always load a snap-cap and see if you could deliberately manipulate the gun enough in the holster to de-cock the striker.
 
Voland, if you're like me you have a harder time trusting it because you can understand it a little less than the old fashioned ones and you just can't see the blamed thing. It took some time for me to overcome my anxiety about carrying chamber loaded with such pistols, but it did eventually happen.

I'm not proud to say this, but I've dropped pistols (mostly Glocks) more times than I'd like to admit. And they just don't go bang unless you pull the trigger. Heart still skips a beat, but my confidence is pretty strong in them now.

No striker-fired pistol will fire unless the trigger is pulled

While I agree with AK's sentiment, we have to remind ourselves that mechanical devices do in fact fail and it is always possible for a gun to fire without the trigger being pulled... it's just extremely rare.
 
The trigger pull on the Kahr is nearly an inch- it's modeled after DA revolvers for crying out loud.

You're not going to find a safer trigger in an autoloader unless it's got a thumb safety.

Get a holster that covers the trigger and practice presentations with the pistol cocked but unloaded until you can go draw after draw without dropping the striker. I'd guess you'll need to draw at least 3 times to get it right.
 
Thanks guys! These are all good ideas! I have a 9mm snap cap somewhere so Ill dig that out and try it out...

I think I am mostly over my fear. Ive had it loaded around the house all night just to get use to the feeling so with some practice, I think I should be ok.

V.
 
I carry a PM9.

In a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster. Always a round in the chamber.

The other thing is that the best way to chamber a round in a PM9 is to "slingshot" it. If you need your weapon in a hurry, you're out of luck.

Do you carry in a holster that covers the trigger? If you do, then don't worry about it. Carry in Condition 1. Your weapon needs to be ready.
 
While I agree with AK's sentiment, we have to remind ourselves that mechanical devices do in fact fail and it is always possible for a gun to fire without the trigger being pulled... it's just extremely rare.

I have never heard of a single AD in a modern striker fired pistol UNLESS THE TRIGGER WAS PULLED; Dropped, dragged, tumbled or otherwise. I have a bunch of them; if you can site an instance, I would be interested to study it.
 
You know, thats a good point! The only ones I've ever heard about are the Glocks when disassembling... Ill have to do some research on that...
 
The only ones I've ever heard about are the Glocks when disassembling
You mean the "forgot to clear the chamber and then pulled the trigger" negligent discharges? Failure to read the manual or apply common sense isn't the fault of the manufacturer.
So long as the pistol is contained in a quality holster (meaning not just riding in your pocket or a cheapy un-stiffened fabric holster) the trigger can't be pulled, right? And if the trigger isn't pulled, the striker isn't cocked/released, right? So what's the issue?
Have you considered a snap-cap and attempting to abuse the pistol into a discharge? If the Kahr design doesn't have a striker indicator (I didn't spot one in photos) then you could put a bit of tape on the cap, which would be marred by the firing pin if you were able to induce firing.
 
Some one convince me that I am crazy?!?!
The most important reason to carry your pistol in condition one is not speed; it is the fact you may not have full function of one or both of your arms/hands. Would you want to be in this situation with a condition three pistol?
American Handgunner said:
The Marcus Young incident.
American Handgunner. Sept-Oct 2004.

• Situation: The criminal emptied a .38 into you, leaving your gun arm
paralyzed and your other hand torn apart––and now, he's reaching
for a machine gun.

• March 7, 2003. Sgt. Marcus Young is midway through an evening shift, working patrol for the Ukiah, California Police Department. He's a Navy vet, second-degree black belt in Shorinryu karate, 18 years on the force. With him is a 17-year-old police cadet named Julian Covella. A devoted husband and father, the 40-year-old sergeant serves as president of a local school board. His own young son is thinking about going the police cadet route and Marcus is particularly interested in how it's working out for Julian. Then comes the seemingly routine call: a shoplifter at the Wal-Mart Superstore. Young wheels the patrol car in that direction

In the next few minutes, he and his young cadet ride-along will save each other's lives.

• The Incident - 2148 hours, 9:48 PM.
• As the cadet watches, Sgt. Young takes custody of the wan-looking suspect. Monica Winnie is only 18, but she could pass for 10 or 15 years older. Wal-Mart security guard Brett Schott watches as Young politely escorts her to the patrol car and puts her into the back seat.

• Now comes a medium-sized man who moves rapidly and purposefully toward them through the darkened parking lot, his hands ominously thrust into his jacket pockets. He wears the face of Satan and it's not a trick of the light.

Neal Beckman, Winnie's companion, is a 35-year-old Caucasian with a long, bad history. He is a member of a gang called the Nazi Low Riders and is wanted in connection with a $100,000 home invasion robbery. He has carefully cultivated the Satanic image, his sculpted mustache and goatee set off by small devil horns tattooed on his forehead. Unseen by the cop is his full backpack tattoo of the devil himself. In his pockets, also unseen by Young, are a fixed-blade hunting
knife in his left hand and a late Smith & Wesson Model 637 stainless Airweight in his right, all five chambers loaded.

• Beckman has made it to close range when Young says in command voice, "Take your hands out of your pockets." There is no response. Young repeats the command and Beckman answers, "I have a knife."

• The blade comes out, held as if its wielder means business. Young reacts instantly in accordance with his training as both policeman and martial artist. He grabs the knife-hand and pivots off mid-line, wrenching the suspect's arm into the double-ninety-degree configuration known in California police circles as a twistlock. He can feel something snapping and popping in the arm, but the knifewielder does not let go. Both of them slam into the side of the car.

• And suddenly, there is a bright flash and a searing heat and Sgt. Marcus Young realizes he has just been shot in the face at close range.

• In the swirl of movement that follows, things happen fast even though it seems to the cop as if everything has gone into slow motion. More bullets hammer into him. The burning sensations tear through his right arm and his back, and something smashes into his left side as if he has been struck in the rib cage with an aluminum baseball bat. Through it all, the sergeant is aware of the young woman screaming wordlessly in the back seat of the patrol unit.

Brett Schott, the unarmed security guard, leaps into the fight. He barrels into Beckman, grabs the revolver and wrenches it away. He does not realize he is holding an empty gun. Beckman has fired all five shots and four of them have struck the cop.

• The man with the face that mimics Satan shifts the hunting knife from his left hand to his right and sinks it viciously into the side of the security guard. The blade plunges deep into the left side of the guard's chest, almost immediately collapsing the lung and opening a wound so big that lung tissue is visible. He levers the blade and tears the wound wider, completely severing the deltoid muscle.

• Schott disengages, instantly weakened by the massive wound, realizing he is hemorrhaging massively and perhaps fatally. He tries to make his way to another car for cover.

• Meanwhile, Young has regained his feet and reached for his own gun. Yet it does not rise into line of sight in the movement he has practiced so many times. He tries again and realizes his right arm is not responding to his mental command. The humerus has been shattered and there is nerve damage. His gun arm is paralyzed.

• The Ukiah PD firearms instructors are thorough. They have taught Young how to draw weak-handed if his gun arm is taken out. He makes the attempt but his left hand isn't working right, either. Glancing down, he sees that it has been ripped open, literally torn apart, its separated ten dons visible through the opened skin.

• And now, the suspect is on his feet, tearing open the right front door of the patrol car and closing it behind him as he jumps in. He's not trying to drive away. Instead, he drops down on the seat on his left side as he claws for the switch he knows is hidden there somewhere. The switch that will release into his murderous hands a fresh weapon and a deadlier one.

Ukiah PD keeps two loaded long guns in each patrol car. One is a Remington 870 pump shotgun, loaded with 12 gauge 00 buckshot. The other, secured to the ceiling of the front seat, is an HK33. It's not just a .223 autoloading rifle. It has a selector switch. The man who has just attempted to murder two uniformed officials is about to access a true assault rifle, literally a machine gun, and the price of poker has just gone up.

• Through it all, the young cadet, Julian Covella, has stood nearby, torn between obedience and his own strong sense of duty. Police cadets are told that under no circumstances are they to join in fights involving sworn officers, and this training has held him in check, yet every fiber of his being has been telling him, do something!

• As Beckman tries furiously to free the heavy weapons and turn them on his victims, Young turns to the boy and says, "Take my gun out and put it in my hand." Julian fumbles, but only for a moment, releasing the thumb-break safety strap of the Level One duty holster. He carefully withdraws the pistol, a Beretta 96G, and places it into the bloody left hand that the wounded lawman extends to him.

• It's the "G" model, decocker only, no safety to disengage. Young will later thank God his firearms instructors drilled him intensively in weak hand only shooting. Kneeling to steady himself, he raises the gun to eye level, not trying for a sight picture, just visually superimposing the gun over where he knows he has to shoot. The center mass of his antagonist's body is shielded by the car door, but Young has been told that .40 caliber service pistol bullets can punch through auto bodies, so he fires. The first shot goes double action and he sees it strike where he aimed it. No reaction. The gun has cocked itself and he squeezes off a second shot single action. Again, the bullet goes where aimed, and again, the jacketed hollow point .40 bullet fails to make it through the door.

Time for Plan B. He raises the pistol higher. Startled by the first return fire, the man who tried to kill him turns and looks at the officer, and he is staring down the gun barrel when the first shot smashes through the closed window of the car and into his face. He jerks and moves violently, Young fires a fourth time and now the attacker goes limp and still.

• Young keeps him covered for what seems to him a very long time before he realizes it's over. He knows he has been shot multiple times, in the torso and the head and doesn't know how long he will remain conscious. He can see the guard is down, bleeding profusely. Only young Julian remains able-bodied on the side of the good guys.

• Knowing both his hands are badly disabled and the cocked gun is covered with blood, Young decides not to try to decock his privately owned, department approved Beretta. He doesn't want to hold a cocked pistol in an injured hand, or drop one if he passes out, so he sets it gently on the ground where he can keep an eye on it.

He tells Julian to get on the radio and call in. Then, remembering what he had learned in classes he had taken from Col. Dave Grossman, Young begins deliberate controlled breathing exercises to keep calm, conscious and alive.

• Aftermath And Lessons

• Emergency Medical Service response was swift, but the receiving hospital was only equipped to perform emergency surgery on one patient at a time. The heroic guard who had jumped into the fight unarmed to save the embattled officer was near death and went onto the table first. He had lost about half of his blood and it took three hours for the surgeons to stabilize him and save his life.

• During that time, Sgt. Young waited without pain-killer, because he had lost two pints of blood and his blood pressure was low; doctors didn't dare give him depressants. The pain didn't really hit him until 45 to 60 minutes after the shooting.

• The first .38 Special slug had struck Young in the left cheek and exited the back of his neck, fortunately missing the brain. He had never lost consciousness. He does not remember the exact sequence of the following hits, but one had smashed the right arm. Another had gone past his armor and punched into his back, causing serious injuries which, like the right arm wound, have required multiple surgeries since and will probably need more. The blow to his right side had been a bullet stopping in his Point Blank Level III-A bullet-resistant vest. It left a massive bruise, but caused no serious damage. Doctors said this projectile, had it not been stopped by the Kevlar, would have killed the policeman. They determined that he had not been shot in the left hand, but it had been so badly mangled during the fight it took hours of surgery to repair the tendon damage.

The would-be cop-killer was DOA. Young's third shot had caught him square in the forehead. Because Beckman was down on the seat with the head back the ogive of the bullet had caused it to skid off the skull beneath the scalp, emerging at the crown with a big, ugly exit wound, but inflicting no
life-threatening damage. As he convulsed and twisted to get away from the return fire, he had presented his buttocks toward the policeman. Young's final shot, the officer's visibility impaired by the broken glass of the door window, had struck Beckman there and ranged up deep inside him, piercing the liver and lodging in his neck. This had been the fatal shot.

• Both men had been shot in the face and head and actually sustained fairly minor wounds. The "fatal" hits––potentially on the good guy, decisively on the bad––had struck each in the trunk of the body.

• On that fateful night, the sergeant had not been wearing a backup gun. He realizes now a second weapon carried in a manner readily accessible to the non-dominant hand might have allowed him to neutralize his lethal attacker more swiftly.

• Young wore his concealed body armor religiously and it saved his life. Some 700 of us watched as Young was inducted into the Kevlar Survivors' Club in January '04, at the American Society for Law Enforcement Training annual conference in St. Louis. He joined more than 2,500 brother and sister officers who owe their lives to that technology. Young was officially pronounced Save Number 2,751

He credits the training he received from his department and from outside resources, ranging from Col. Grossman to his various sensei in the martial arts, for his ability to endure incredible punishment and be able to think creatively and respond when the terrifying curve ball of seeming helplessness in the face of death came at him. The ability to stay calm and keep thinking served him well. At the same ASLET conference, giving a talk on the FBI/Miami shooting in 1986, Dr. French Anderson made a telling statement which applied directly to Young's incident: "If you can think and if you can move, you can still fight."

• Be Prepared

• The order Sgt. Young gave to the man who was planning to murder him––"Take your hands out of your pockets"––was intuitive for any cop in the same situation, yet it resulted in what the medical community euphemistically calls "a negative outcome." I suspect the next time Young confronts a hostile man with hands concealed, he will take him at gunpoint and specifically order him to let go of anything in his pockets, and then very slowly withdraw his empty right hand and then his empty left hand. The weapons Neal Beckman held in each of his hands each almost ended the life of a protector of the public on the night of March 7, 2003 in that dimly-lit Wal-Mart parking lot.

• More departments are carrying their long guns up front these days where they belong and more are using patrol rifles, even select-fire .223s as issued by Ukiah PD. This is all to the good. Care must be taken, however, not to cut corners and to make sure each such weapon is secured in such a manner it's readily accessible to authorized personnel, but relatively inaccessible to perpetrators such as Beckman. Fortunately, Ukiah PD kept its long guns securely locked in overhead racks, the means of instant release known to the officers but not immediately apparent to an invader in the patrol car. The potential of a machine gun in the hands of someone like Beckman does not require much imagination.

Be prepared to deal with distorted perceptions during the fight and other phenomena later. With one of the nation's leading experts on "post shooting trauma," psychologist Alexis Artwohl, at his side, Young told ASLET attendees of what he had experienced. Things went into slow motion early.
At times he fought "on auto pilot." He experienced some memory loss, such as the sequence of the wounds he sustained subsequent to the first.

• Interestingly, it was the third time in his career a criminal had put a gun to his head. From the time of those incidents through March 2003, he had suffered occasional nightmares in which he relived the incidents, or in which he fired his gun and it didn't work.

• Since the night in question, when he survived a gunshot wound to the head and then killed his attacker with a perfectly functioning Beretta, those nightmares have stopped.

• Epilog

• In the vehicle occupied earlier by the shoplifting suspect and the would-be cop-killer were several pipe bombs. Case investigators suspect the suspects had planned to use the explosives in a robbery. She pled guilty to misdemeanor theft, possession of explosives and grand theft, the latter on a subsequently discovered outstanding warrant.

The heroic security guard Brett Schatt, and the courageous young police cadet Julian Covella, received numerous awards for valor. These included heroism citations from the Veterans of Foreign Wars and the American Legion, and dual Citizen of the Year awards from the California Narcotics
Officers' Association. Covella has since been accepted as a cadet at the United States Naval Academy at Annapolis.

• Sgt. Young, now 41, is on light duty at the department, still recovering from his severe physical injuries and facing more surgery. A NRA member, he was awarded the National Rifle Association's honors as Police Officer of the Year for 2003, and the Mayor's Medal of Valor. He has also been nominated for the Presidential Medal of Valor and that of the California Attorney General's Office. Marcus Young's incident will be included in the curriculum of a new course from the California Police Standards and Training council devoted to the management of fear and anger in crisis.

• Young himself feels he owes his survival not only to Julian and Brett, but to the many instructors who trained him over the years. "They taught me to shoot from awkward positions if I was wounded," he says, "and they taught me to be resourceful and keep thinking and keep fighting no matter how I might be injured. They taught me to never give up. And I want to thank them
publicly for that."

• There have been death threats against Marcus Young. He is concerned. But he is not afraid.
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Criminy. That's a grim happening for a sleepy little town. Glad the officer made it out alive.
 
Wow! thats crazy but a very good point! Going forward, its +1 and no other way... I am 100% sure that I would not be able to chamber a round on the PM9 in that situation...

Thanks for the article and I am very glad that the officer survived!

V.
 
Kahr pistols have a striker block that blocks the forward movement of the striker until a protrusion on the cocking cam lifts the striker block out of the way for the striker to move. Basically, the striker isn't going anywhere unless the trigger is pulled. You can carry it with confidence and a round in the chamber.
 
The XD has a striker block as well. The trigger bar lifts the block, so the gun can't go off without pulling the trigger. In fact, to test that the firing pin does not enter the chamber I put a pencil in the barrel (pointing gun straight up) and released the striker with a small screw driver inserted in the back of the gun (yes the gun is unloaded!). The block does indeed work. Doing the same thing, but pulling the trigger will launch the pencil out of the gun.

There are 3 mechanical safeties in the XD and I don't hesitate to carry with one in the chamber.
 
I prefer a striker fired pistol that completely cocks and drops the hammer with every pull of the trigger. No tension on the striker/firing pin at rest and double strike capability.
 
I hope that I do not get struck by a bolt of lightning from on high for posting this, but I like my striker Kahrs.

I like, and carry, a Commnader size '11 pattern sidearm, but our family 'bump-in-the-night' home security sidearms are either revolvers or striker actuated Kahrs.

You'll have to work out your own storage/security/access considerations.

Lots of stuff to consider, but a round in the chamber or next up in the cylinder wasn't one of them.

salty

edit: I don't know about the short slide PM Kahrs. Ours are 'K' and 'P' 9s.
 
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kahrs indeed do have the striker block and they have never failed a drop safety test either. but that being said kahrs are about the most double action semi's ever made. they are at best 10% in a precocked position, that being held off the striker by the striker block. that is why also the trigger pullis a full 3/8" to ignition over lets say a glock or a Smith M & P, which both are well over 50% pre cocked and just a light touch of the trigger u have ignition. another reason why both also have trigger safetys on them. Pretty close to single action semi's expecially the M & P. Your kahr is totally safe, keep ur bugger finger out of the trigger area and it just ain't gonna go off.
Don't carry it without one in the pipe, as if an emergency arrises, you might indeed screw up tryng to rack a live round in the chamber.
 
f you're like me you have a harder time trusting it because you can understand it a little less than the old fashioned ones and you just can't see the blamed thing

That is why I like the SR9, you can actually see the striker :D You can tell if it's "cocked" or "down"...
 
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