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Strong safe---where

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by BIGGBAY90, Oct 1, 2010.

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  1. btn

    btn member

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    Ok, I just showed the picture of the hole above to 5 people in my office. I didn't tell any of them what my opinion was. All 5 said there's a hole in that 11 gauge.

    However, I do have to be honest, none of them sell Amsecs or own one. Although at least 2 do have MBA's from Ivy League schools
     
  2. heeler

    heeler Member

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    I did not see the hole myself.
    I guess the only way for BTN to believe one way or another is for the owner of that damaged safe to post on this issue.
     
  3. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    It's a crease, of course Frank told him to fill it with putty. Much like fixing a ding in a cars metal panel before painting. It would be a cheap easy fix. Now if there was an actual hole there, which we now know there isn't, then maybe some welding would have been a better fix option.

    You just can't stand the truth, and are trying to spread FUD.
     
  4. btn

    btn member

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    Since when is a crease a round hole?
     
  5. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    The round thing underneath the crease is only missing paint. You see the black paint, the white putty beneath, and the dark circle you are seeing is the bare steel.
     
  6. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    OMG you guys can't be serious, you're calling that a crease :D That is too funny. You can clearly see the metal torn up and ending at a point. And the shadows? And the color? Man I don't even think I want to get into this one this is so off the wall.
     
  7. Lee Roder

    Lee Roder Member

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  8. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Hey thanks Lee Roder, I was going crazy trying to remember where I got the picture.

    quote from the purchaser

     
  9. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I'm calling the crease a crease, since that's the major damage. Apparently you guys are looking at the missing paint, and calling it a hole.

    That is the description of the buyer on the forum, who to my knowledge hadn't even seen the safe in person yet. I am going to use that link to fire him a message real quick to get his version.

    Of course I already linked to the original photos, and gave the seller's description of the item. Beyond that, I spoke with him on the phone this afternoon. There's no hole.

    Since you guys aren't are either flat out making things up, or truely confused about what you're seeing, I took a photo for you that may help. We have a few large forklifts ourselves, with big steel weights on the back. These weights are painted, and sometimes forklifts get bumped into things.

    This photo shows the exact same thing that AMSEC photo does. It shows a glancing strike that at first took only paint down to putty, then putty down to steel. No hole here either.

    bfdamage-1.jpg

    Now here is a bit of an enlarged version of the AMSEC photo:

    bfdamage1.jpg

    What you're seeing:

    1) Steel, roof of safe

    2) White putty in valley over weld between roof and frame face

    3) Creased steel, inititial point of impact on frame face.

    4) Steel, frame face

    5) White putty beneath paint



    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  10. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Paint to putty-putty to steel---it does look like a hole but i see its not---great illustration
     
  11. btn

    btn member

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    I guess the owner doesn't agree with you Frank, or the guy who sold the safe.

    And Frank this is what you said when I expressed concern since I was considering an Amsec at the time.

    So it looks like you rationalized it then. Why not now?


    Frank, did you read that article in the NY Times a couple of weeks ago about entrepreneurs and how obsessive they are? I'm going to try to find it for you...

    Hey Keiser Are those crickets I hear?? :neener:
     
  12. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    No, I just realized that you won't agree even if the owner of the safe comes on here and tells everyone there was not a hole. Hey, what were you saying about Frank being obsessive ? :evil:

    As Frank said, the owner had not even seen the safe in person when he described it in that thread. So quoting him is about as bad as the rest of the FUD you are spreading.
     
  13. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    I also find something else a bit interesting. Adirondack seems to have joined this forum during the same debate on the other forum. Are you some sort of troll for Sturdy? Every post of yours on this forum, except ONE, is in a thread that I have been in regarding safes.

    Very odd indeed!

    The owner had found the safe online, and was describing in his own words, what he was seeing in the photo.

    I sent him a message on the other forum, and am awaiting a response. So far, you have been wrong on every count. I don't think your record is going to change once I get his response.

    Because it is certainly possible. However, it's not what you're seeing in this photo. Big heavy steel things dropped on other big heavy steel things can certainly sustain serious damage.

    However, upon a close inpsection of the photo, I have disproved your assertion that this is a hole. Hell, I thought you were actually talking about the portion of the safe that had actually sustained structural damage. Instead, you're talking about paint loss beneath the real damage.

    I have stated for many years that I answer safe questions to help clear up some of the mistruths stated by various manufacturers, and I suppose I'll extend that to inlclude those that have no idea what they're talking about, but are spreading mistruths themselves.
     
  14. BADUNAME17

    BADUNAME17 Member

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    No offense, but we would choose to hire actual mechanical engineers.
    Furthermore, we have been a repair station for all brands of safes for the past 30 years, and that’s about the time you were born Frank.


    Are you, or are you not, stating to our customers reading this thread, that they should be worried about Sturdy Safes being pried open, with a 6ft pry bar, by a thief?


    Your not trying to sell Biggbay90 a G5931 (which is a B-rated Chinese safe) Frank? Is that what your saying? We all know your on here selling your safes in addition to providing information. This is one of the things you do for a living.


    Like I have previously stated, Sturdy Gun Safe doors do not allow enough gap for a pry bar to get started, however, IF you were able to get a pry bar started, we already know, with enough force, you can bend the lip of the door up. HOWEVER THIS WILL STILL NOT OPEN THE DOOR. The welding everywhere on the door is more than substantial as you can see.
    IMG_2042.jpg
    It will not allow the Sturdy Safe door to flex substantially enough, and even then, you have the problem of rebound, which is the characteristic of high carbon steel. So now, the most you can hope for is to distort the top of the door opening. In that effort, you would need to realize that the top is welded to the body all the way down through the door seat on both sides of the opening. Making that connection on both sides of the pry point extremely strong. Using a 6ft pry bar, with the belief you can distort the top up, you would have to understand the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Therefore, to gain room for the distortion, you would have to stretch the steel to move it out of it’s straight line connection from one side to the other. Not to mention, the same problem would exist on the vertical parts of the door seat as well. The door itself keeps these distances from moving closer together and allowing room for the distortion. To create such a distortion, you would have to collapse the door seat formation, which took 250 tons to create. To collapse even a section of this is much harder than you think. So now, you would need to break the welds themselves just to make the attempt at such a distortion. We realize that many gun safes on the market have not analyzed potential threats with crow bars properly, but Sturdy Safe is not one of these companies. This paragraph needs more clarification, but I fear it’s already getting too long winded. For more details, please call 800-262-0023.


    Sure every engineer knows that given a leaver big enough and long enough you can move almost any weight, but can that be PRACTICALLY APPLIED to prying a Sturdy Safe? Of course not! There are problems such as pry bar thickness not being adequate. We can state that it’s impossible to go to the moon, but then you would say, yes it is possible, it’s been done before. Disregarding the practicality of actually doing it. Basically, we understand no safe is impregnable, but due to mechanical engineers, expert safe crackers, and our own vigorous testing, we are very comfortable in saying that our customers have nothing to worry about when it comes to practical pry bar attacks. You are saying otherwise still, correct?


    You forgot to add the word “not". The “10000lb stack of 5/16” could NOT flex” an inch, like it could have, if it was possible to do so.


    Sturdy Safe took you up on your challenge to call local locksmiths. All the locksmiths said; a WELL MADE B rated safe is virtually impossible to pry open, however, there were some that had welded in door seats that could be breached by taking a sledge hammer and beating the door in. Breaking the welds that held the door seat. This however, is not just a pry bar attack. I guess thickness is not everything.


    _____________________________________________________________________



    We are not all here to argue with Frank for fun, or to advertise. We all come back here to argue with him, because he is misinforming people. Here are several different topics he needed to be corrected on so far:

    1.
    Yet Brown Mfg. needed to come on here and tell you they do.

    2.
    We called Amsec. They agreed with us that Franks statement is not true and when viewing the substance in person, you can see it‘s not true. This is in addition, to everyone else on the forum telling him it‘s not true. He was comparing our safe to an 11g body, 16 g liner Amsec gun safe. -This was discussed on this thread (#36) as well.

    3.
    After 4 people corrected you saying it was really an 11g body and 16g liner, you go on to state;
    Which we know for a fact now, you were wrong again.

    4.
    His point being, the bf gun safes must be just as good in a fire as the smaller UL fire rated BF safes, right? Wrong. This is entirely incorrect and very misleading. The smaller UL Fire rated bf safes use Vermiculite mix, which Amsec says performs better in a fire compared to the dry light used in their bf gun safes. In addition, their wall thicknesses differ. We called Amsec, and they agreed with us that what Frank stated is not true.

    5.
    Even though, we proved you cannot do this with a pry bar that’s actually capable of being used on a Sturdy Gun Safe.

    6.
    Even though you will not say how you would do it, so we can debunk you.

    7. Amongst other debates....-Discussed on other threads and this one.








    Thank you for all your calls, and private messages regarding this. Thank you to those on this thread who speak up. We get so busy I wish I could respond sooner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  15. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    Anyone get in touch with that individual? You guys seem to be on every forum so someone PM him for an update. His initial comment about the apparent damage was made before he decided to buy the safe. I don't know if his statement about the cosmetic damage and/or hole was based on information acquired from the company directly or a conclusion he drew from the images on the website itself. The only way to know is to ask him because there is no actual follow-up post on the damage once he purchased it.

    Before you rub things in btn, you were arguing that the puncture was the "round hole" on the front fascia and if the OP on TFL's statement is accurate, the only puncture is on the top. It's also pointless to play the "at least 2 do have MBA's from Ivy League schools " card if you're asking for opinions from coworkers. Those folks have no more credibility than doctor or astronaut looking at the same pictures. It reminds me of the crazy lady next door that once screamed at her 11 year old kid, "CLOSE THE F**KING SLIDING DOOR, YOU'RE LETTING IN THE HOT AIR. I KNOW, I HAVE A PhD!!!!"
     
  16. Gord

    Gord Member

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    I'm still LOLing over the Ivy League MBA thing.
    As the economy has proven, they must be infallible. ;)

    I need more popcorn!
     
  17. btn

    btn member

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    Once again the pot calling the kettle black.

    I wonder what will happen if the owner agrees with his original comment, something I'm sure he didn't pull out of thin air and something Frank, who at that point had seen the same picture in question, agreed with! Will you agree then Keiser???

    Funny I was thinking the same thing about you! Do you just sell their safes or do you have a side deal with their Marketing/PR Department? Full disclosure please.

    For all you know, all knowing one, he's repeating what the salesman told him on the phone when he called to ask about the safe.

    I think you should have left it at that. It's never good to let your ego get in the way, especially when you keep getting proved wrong.

    I assume you'll be man enough to admit that's YOU if the owner responds to your email and says it was a hole like he previously stated?
     
  18. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Hmmmmm, now that you mention it!
     
  19. btn

    btn member

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    You know when someones condescending to me I can't help but be condescending right back. But I guess that's par for the course if you disagree with a know it all.

    Anyway Alyssa put him in his place yet again, and I have to head out to a dinner party, so I can't stick around for Franks long response.

    Guys and girls have a great night.

    Oh and Frank here's the article

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/business/19entre.html?_r=1&sq=entrepreneur&st=cse&adxnnl=1&scp=14&adxnnlx=1287792535-X9SfIz94ggp8Byj3ofcfjQ

    My favorite part...

    It's actually not a bad article and it's not really insulting to say I thought you might share some of the personality traits they discuss...
     
  20. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    If you perceive someone wronged you by throwing poop like a monkey (figuratively), reciprocating in kind results in a pack of monkeys slinging poop and a crowd of bystanders being amused at those drawn into a rage and not really caring who is right or wrong because it's such a sideshow. Passing logical fallacy under the guise of an argument only weakens your standing. That is my personal opinion, but I suppose if I had my buttons pressed just right, I would fly into a fit of rage too.

    I would also appreciate if people stop playing the "buy American" card simply for the sake of "buy American". Good products sell themselves. I've seen some shoddy American products and some top-notch American products. The product is as only good as the company regardless because humans are the same everywhere in the world and have the same potential and capacity. Country of origin plays only a fraction of the merit in the overall product.

    How many of you are typing on a computer with the majority of parts made in China? 100% of you unless you're using a 1946 ENIAC vacuum tube computer.
     
  21. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Believe me Sturdy, I was never worried about that; it was such a stupid thing to say I really didn't know how to respond (well there was the whole bet thing which I still don't know would have been legal but of course would have checked on first ;) )
     
  22. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    You know, this brings up an interesting question. Buzz around the internet says that you guys have been in the safe building business for the last 50 years. Is this true? Or were you guys simply in the steel fabricating business for that length of time and decided to start building gun safes at some point? Do you have any proof of your time line as it applies to gun safes? I asked this same question to Terry on the phone, and he danced around the answer much like he did when I asked about fire protection. That thin insulation that you guys call fire protection in no way is going to protect the internal treasures from disaster. I know how much heat gets generated from the sun inside a building protected from 6" of insulation. A fire directly outside id going to destroy anything inside a Sturdy safe.

    If he is, it's extremely subtle, as I could hardly get a price out of him last year this time. But, I sure got loads of info. And if Frank is the type of guy that gives you loads of info, and then comes back at the end trying to sell you a safe,,,,,,then I have no problem with that. Especially when all my other research (away from Frank) comes to the same conclusion.

    A sharp steel wedge and a sledge hammer disagree with you. I invite you to sharpen a steel wedge to a razor sharp edge......something I know will fit in that tiny gap you guys brag about. Then use a sledge and start hammering. Just an FYI.......any manufacturer that shows videos of testing on their own product automatically lose credibility.

    Nope, you are here to do exactly what you say he is here doing......selling your product.,

    He gave you the reasons why he won't say.....you have the same disease as the other posters, in that you don't read and comprehend. The fact you want him to divulge security info like that only proves the level of professionalism that Sturdy practices. Or maybe you are trying to bait him into telling all, so you can come back and accuse him of not being professional?
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  23. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Who is keizer ---a safe dealer or repairman
     
  24. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    I'm not really sure what he is but he appears to be quite the loudmouth at the moment.
     
  25. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    I'm neither.....just an educated poster. I'm also not a loud mouth. It;s just that some people don't like the truth.
     
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