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Strong safe---where

Discussion in 'Shooting Gear and Storage' started by BIGGBAY90, Oct 1, 2010.

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  1. heeler

    heeler Member

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    All of this is interesting and isnt education a wonderful thing.
    There's a lot of math and physics lessons here.
    And this leads me to believe ever more firmly as to my stated opinion in post #55 of this thread,namely, that if someone broke into your home without the knowledge of you owning the Sturdy,the Liberty Presidential,my BF 66X36,there is a very good possibility that once the perp(s) came across your safe that was bolted down and placed correctly in a corner or recessed alcove such as a tight closet, and unless you had some heavy duty tools lying about it is very unlikely that they will be getting into one of these safes with what they used to pry their way into your humble domain.
    Which should be something that everyone who is contemplating buying a thin 12 gauge gunsafe with a flimsy composite door should rethink,save some more money,and buy something more on the lines of the Sturdy or BF or something as well made or even better.
    This has been a lot of fun guys.
     
  2. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Here in nyc the average crowbar is 12-16 inchs long(you really don't see 2 or 4 or more feet crowbars)(and try walking down the street with a 4-5 foot bar---not happening here---!!pull over !!!!). I do not think that much force(10,000 lbs) can be applied with such a short bar.

    HEY A1ADBJ AND ALL, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE MODULAR SAFE--ARE THEY AS GOOD----HELP
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2010
  3. Cesiumsponge

    Cesiumsponge Member

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    I've talked to a1abdj and CB900F through PM several years ago and they provided endless free information to me when I was researching safes...as much as I could absorb from them. Ultimately they want you to make an informed decision, not buying on false information. You give them a set of circumstances and they'll point out a product that'll satisfy your needs. These guys run a business and take hours out of their day to provide information to folks that might have false assumptions when buying an RSC. It usually doesn't net them a sale either because chances are, you don't live close enough to take advantage of their service work and the additional cost of freight delivery would gobble up any savings from using a local dealer.

    While there are great gun safes out there that'll do the job a gun safe/RSC is designed to do (buy you some time), it is beyond my comprehension how someone can argue that some of these gun safe-only companies can manufacture something simultaneously stronger and cheaper than security products that must protect millions of dollars in cash or assets for billion-dollar companies.

    BIGGBAY90, which modular system are you looking at? There aren't many at the RSC level. The only thing that comes to mind is the Citysafe Modul-X system...but they're easily a magnitude more more expensive than anything currently being compared in this thread. Their Modul-X videos are entertaining though (high explosives and RPGs on their composite panels they brought to Russia for testing)
     
  4. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Zanotti or somethinh like that
     
  5. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    Amen to that heeler. It is fun to do the physics sometimes though ... right? Although, I'm getting way behind in my project work so I don't know how much longer I'm going to be able to do this before I get caught up.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that, I know I'm not. A quality TL rated AMSEC HS, GRAFFUNDER, BROWN or other are designed and actually tested by experts from UL to determine their rating. These are obviously in a league different than the scope of this thread, which is as you recall and I paraphase "need a good steel safe, no fire lining, that's has good ax and pry protection. I firmly believe (in case anyone hasn't guessed yet) there is no safe on the market that better meets that task at anything near the price than Sturdy Safe does. Also, if you want fire protection in your gun safe add to the statement, their is no better fire protection material for this application that can be used then what Sturdy Safe is using so if that's a concern, this safe is great at that as well (whole thread devoted to that so no time for the ensuing argument from Frank again). Again. I don't know the people at Sturdy or have a vested interest in the company, just one man's opinion and if they want me to stop talking about them let me know and I will but Alyssa made a comment earlier that she thinks her customer's rock so I'm taking that as they are okay with it.

    There was an excellent comment made about gun safes and ratings that I guess is why I'm here commenting at all. UL ratings below TL really are worthless in my opinion. Remember that Chinese RSC video shown earlier in the thread and how easily it could be defected in multiple ways all in just minutes. Then look at what Sturdy Safe offers or even a AMSEC BF, they are rated as RSCs too. To a consumer who doesn't know, they would appear to be equivalent in security level. But, at least on Sturdy Safe's website, the Sturdy Safe has defeated pry bar and ax attacks multiple times so they definitely aren't all equal. So next B rated, that should mean better protection or at least a consumer might think so. 1/4" steel on the body and 1/2" steel on the door is a good thing but what if there is a big gap in the door and the door is flush with the body. In this case, a pry bar could get a mechanical advantage 100s of times the applied force which will allow the door to be opened do doubt. Although, much less likely, even a C rated safe with a big gap in the door and a door that's flush with the body with also weak bolt framing support could be susceptible to a pry bar attack. These levels are all about cosmetics and not actual attack rating (I probably should look on UL's website again to verify that statement but I'm sure Frank will point it out if I'm wrong), the body itself becomes the fulcrum so now the mechanical advantage of a 5 ft pry bar becomes something like 100/1 so Frank's 160LBS body easily delivers 16,000 LBS of force to the door which will be mostly be in the opening direction so it become 'plausible'. This is why tight tolerances between the door and body and a deep recessed door to the body are the two most important characteristics to reducing the effectiveness of a pry bar attack (other than not having one in the first place). With TL rating at least you know there is actually testing that has gone on. So speaking for myself, if I ever feel I need more protection than my Sturdy Safe can provide; I'm going right to a TL30 and skip all between because for pry bar attacks, ax attacks the Sturdy is great but if cutting tools are involved, much less than a TL30 won't be enough time for the cops to show up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  6. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    It's more difficult to do when standing, but not out of the question. The bolting is good because it prevents the safe from being tipped, which then makes it easier to work on. In a sense it's bad, because it will hold the safe still, making it easier to get more leverage. Overall, bolting is one of best things you can do to a safe, regardless of its weight.

    The RSC rating issued by UL takes this into account. It allows for a hammer up to 18" in length and 3 pounds or less, and a prying device 18" in length or less. The safe has to last for a period of 5 minutes.

    I'm not aware of any modular gun safe that would offer the security of the Sturdy of the AMSEC BF series.

    Modular gun safes are great if you need the ability to move a safe of such weight or size that a once piece unit will not fit. Otherwise a standard safe will usually offer the same or better security at a fraction of the price.

    The OP actually stated "stop" a prybar attack, which is why this discussion became what it did. There is a huge difference between "slow" which is what most gun safes will do, and "stop" which only a few gun safes will do (as it applies to prybars).

    I noticed that you spent some time figuring the forces that can be applied on a lever, but never got around to figuring the the forces that the Sturdy's door would withstand. Why would an engineer believe something, when he could prove it quite easily?

    If a company made a claim, and that claim was determined to be false in a court of law, they would loose. If a customer makes a claim, it would have no bearing on the product's manufacturer if there was ever a lawsuit due to failure.

    Ultimately, if you need a safe that offers real fire protection, you need a safe with a UL tag (with a few exceptions). This rules out gun safes, as there is currently no gun safe on the market that carries a UL fire label. Of course there are manufacturers (AMSEC, Graffunder, Brown) that use materials that are used in UL fire rated safes, which will be about as close as you'll come to a real rated safe in a gun safe package.

    Not only is this true, but there are several "safe companies" online that perpetuate that same myth. I've seen a video on youtube from a large online "safe company" that's explaining the ratings. He states that the B rated safe shown on the video is a step under a safe with a UL RSC rating. The problem is obvious. There are 14 gauge safes with a RSC rating, and the B rate is 1/4" and 1/2" plate.

    Do you know of such a safe? Most safes are designed for security, and as such, know about the risk of a pry attack. Most safes with plate doors and bodies have fairly tight tolerances, and many have recessed doors.

    The reason one may see large door gaps is because of the materials used. When you're mass producing a safe with a door that's a piece of gypsum with sheet steel wrapped around it, you're going to get abnormal door sizes. As such, you need to oversize your frame a bit to make sure it fits. Most safes using plate will have the pieces laser or plasma cut, which allows for tighter tolerances.

    It's pretty tough to bend steel once you get to this level. Add to that that nobody building these types of safes is leaving big gaps in the door or using light gauge bolt guides.

    The letter rating system predates UL, and was a system originated by ISO (Insurance Services Office). They determined safe classifications that would help insurance agents determine risks for commercial insurance policies.

    Although not directly related to UL's system for determining burglary resistance, it does give you some idea as to the insurance company's risk as it relates to different types of safe construction.

    Sometimes the body, sometimes the door. Depends on what you're objective is.

    I would actually place the strength of the door first, then tolerances, then the recessed design. While the latter two will do the slowing, the first will do the stopping. Combining them all is the winning combination.

    Most people don't know this, but the testing on a TL rated safe has little to do with opening the door. There are several things that will stop the test, such as cutting a hole that's 6 square inches through the door.

    Needless to say, most UL rated safes will far surpass their testing times, especially at the hands of amateur burglars.
     
  7. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    So what does (UL listed 8m10) means
     
  8. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    If you read the rest of the label, it probably says RSC or Residential Security Container.
     
  9. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Yes, it does----but what does that mean
     
  10. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Probably a control number that signifies which manufacturer/safe was submitted for testing. Your safe would be built to the same design as the safes that was tested.
     
  11. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Fire 20 minutes
     
  12. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    UL doesn't have a 20 minute fire rating. Some gun safe manufacturers like to make a sticker that looks similar to the UL sticker, then place them side by side. People then assume that the safe has a UL fire rating, when in fact, it only has a UL RSC rating.
     
  13. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    Like this
     

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  14. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    I read though so quickly earlier I missed this question Frank.

    Calculating the torque on a lever is easy. Calculating the failure point of a complex structure like the Sturdy Safe door especially when it is supported to the body at 10 points (4 active bolts, 4 station bolts and the 2 hinges) is quite difficult and I think even a structural engineer would struggle with it even with software modeling. I can say though that the number is HUGE in comparison to the fork truck test and likely that it won't be the door that fails at all but instead the body becoming so misshaped that the bolts slip past or tear through the door seat. But to give an idea of the strength of the door frame here's the pry bar video again. The door is only supported by two active bolts and the point where the pry bar makes contact looks to be a little more than a foot away from the supporting bolt so it is only the strength of the frame and 5/16" in plate that's resisting the force of the pry bar. Running the numbers quickly it looks to be about 6000LBS of force being applied to the unsupported corner section of the door and the corner only comes up a couple inches. What's really important about the video is how the door flexes; it flexes as one unit with no buckling or evidence of localized stress points which shows the structural rigidity of the door design.

    Sturdy Safe Pry Bar Test with two of four bolts cut


    And it will "stop" a prybar attack no doubt, nobody is prying this door open; it's just not physically possible. But let us review in case there still some doubt.

    First obstacle, tight tolerances between the door and body. A dime won't fit between the door on two of four sides and a penny will just fit on the door edge of my own safe and that's the biggest gap.

    Second obstacle, deep recessed door. Pry bar forces mostly get directed into the door and not at opening the door.

    But of course the biggest obstacle, is the heavy 7ga three inch deep framing support structures that's backing the 5/16" plate on the Sturdy Safe door; that is what is holding the door shut against a uni-body of 12 bends.

    The below web page below the features just described.

    http://www.sturdysafe.com/gunsafes.htm

    I think that's it for me on this thread, I'm going to take a break for a bit to get some work done.
     
  15. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    And that is where you are wrong! I guarantee you that given enough time, that Sturdy door can be pried open, as well as any safe door.
     
  16. Keizer

    Keizer Member

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    Exactly what I stated earlier in this thread, and I'm not even an engineer......only a pee on that worked with gauge steel for years.

    I know you want to believe that the Sturdy safe you payed good money for can't be pried open....but that is a case of false security plain and simple.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  17. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    It's not really a question, since I already know the answer (well, not the exact numbers). I'm just going to assume you're not going to answer the question, because it may shock people.

    I have already told you I can open that safe with a prybar, and it has nothing to do with ripping the door off. The bolts themselves would do little to keep me out. I don't need them to bend, and I don't need them to sheer. In fact, they're doing me a favor by holding the door tight on both sides. I just need the top (or bottom) of the door to move a few inches. There are no bolts there, and the forces would be fairly simple to calculate. I will assure you the forces required are less than what I can generate.

    The recessed door, and tight tolerances would only add a few minutes to the time I would need. You can repeat yourself over and over again by saying that it's not possible, but that doesn't make your statement true.

    Let's take a look at a Granite (back when they made them here in the US) with a laser cut door. These safes have a tight door tolerance, and rounded corners. They are not recessed like the Sturdy, but it doesn't matter. The door on this safe is 1/4", so the Sturdy is 1/16" thicker.

    Granted, this door was defeated because the boltwork is the weak link. What I want you to notice is the upper edge of the door. See that distortion? That's what I would need to do to the Sturdy to get in.

    graniteburglary.jpg
     
  18. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    But can that be done with the basic 12-16inch pry bar THAT IS BOLTED DOWN
     
  19. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    Even a lightweight 12 gauge safe bolted down would hold up well to a 12 to 16" pry bar.
     
  20. BIGGBAY90

    BIGGBAY90 Member

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    So to sum it up the amsme,sturdy,brown etc over 12ga can stop a pry attack
     
  21. adirondack

    adirondack member

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    I remember there was one more thing I wanted to say on this. About the earlier "bitch session" with Frank, and subsequent 'friendly' bet; I really am sorry. I got caught up in the moment and before I knew it said some things I shouldn't have said (and I'm not really sure would be legal anyway which of course I would have checked with a lawyer first before doing ;) Again, sorry to the forum and Sturdy Safe and even to you Frank, I do respect 70% of what you say :)
     
  22. btn

    btn member

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    Sorry a1abj and Kaiser, after reading all the posts on this and viewing the videos I do NOT believe you guys could pry open a Sturdy. What really convinced me was the 12 gauge pendelton video. The enough time argument doesn't work for a brute force attack. 6 huge guys couldn't get into that Pendleton and the all looked nackered after 15 minutes. 1 guy with a pry bar is going to be exhausted long before that Sturdy door gets pryed open.
     
  23. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    That's because everytime somebody thinks "pry open", they think "ripping the door off".

    I don't need to rip the door off to pry the safe open. I only need a 2" gap.

    The numbers don't lie. I can generate more than enough leverage on a 6' bar to create that gap.

    You should notify the FDIC, DEA, GSA, and all of the insurance companies that regulate safe usage. All of this time they've been wasting money on real safes when they could have been using inexpensive gun safes the entire time!
     
  24. btn

    btn member

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    C'mon a1abj we both know I'm not talking about gun safes in general. And I have no doubt you could get into these safes by other methods, I just don't think you could do it by a pry attack.
     
  25. a1abdj

    a1abdj Member

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    So what you're saying is that a person with a 6' pry bar, who can generate forces in excess of 10,000 pounds (the engineer already showed the math) can not flex a sheet of steel that's 5/16" thick, plus whatever they have welded behind it (angle or channel) just a few inches?

    What you're seeing on these videos isn't exactly what I would be doing. They are taking the "caveman" approach. I'd be making a focused attack on the weakest part of the door.

    I already showed a photo of a safe with a 1/4" door skin that was pretty deformed from a pry attack. It's photographic proof that it's possible.
     
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