Strong safe---where

[a1abdj]

Sturdy safe makes a great safe that will not be broken into with a crowbar or not likely a fire ax either.

Although Sturdy makes a heavier safe than most, it is certainly susceptible to pry bars. I have seen safes using much heavier steel pried open.

Ultimately, if you're looking to keep somebody with tools out, you have to have a tool rated safe. In A36 steel plate, 1.5" solid plate doors and 1" solid plate bodies get you 15 minutes.

 

[btn]

Although Sturdy makes a heavier safe than most, it is certainly susceptible to pry bars. I have seen safes using much heavier steel pried open.

As a safe "expert" you know that how the safe is constructed, and how big a gap there is in the door, are the key defenses to preventing pry attacks. Sturdy excels in both of those area's. The thickness of steel comes more into play when a safe is attacked with a fire axe or other tools. From what I understand Sturdy's 7 gauge does pretty well against that as well.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I'm amused to see quotation marks around the word expert when referring to A1abdj.

900F

 

[adirondack]

BIGGBAY90,

I have yet to see a Sturdy Safe customer that wasn't happy with what they received from their company. Their design is extremely robust for the amount of metal and material used. You can also reinforce commonly attacked areas to extend the time required to break in with a torch or cutting attack for not much more. Obviously there are more substantial safes out there that cost a lot more and weigh a lot more but you didn't ask for that.

Here are a few videos showing an a Sturdy safe with an 11,000 LBS tension test on the door and also a pry bar test with a door that has two of the four active bolts cut and a notch cut into it to allow a larger pry bar; in both cases the door didn't fail.

Tension Test

Pry Bar Test

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Here's what i'm lookinf for---size around 50-60in high,,,20-22 depth,,,,,20-28 wide. 7ga to 1/2 in thick wall--no fire proof----hopefully can stop crowbar & ax attack. Which is it amser,brown,sturdy,graffu----help, if you guy think they are all around the same please tell me.

 

[a1abdj]

As a safe "expert" you know that how the safe is constructed, and how big a gap there is in the door, are the key defenses to preventing pry attacks. Sturdy excels in both of those area's. The thickness of steel comes more into play when a safe is attacked with a fire axe or other tools. From what I understand Sturdy's 7 gauge does pretty well against that as well.

The key defense against any type of attack is the inability of the material the safe is constructed of to bend or to be cut. There are a number of attacks that can be mounted against a safe that can bend the steel. Prybars, wedges, hammers, axes, and even explosives. Axes and hammers don't really cut the steel. They stretch and bend it until it tears.

Any safe can stop somebody with a pry bar. The question is for how long. 10 seconds? 1 minute? 1 hour? Forever?

A safe with a TL-15 rating, or an E rate unit, will last much longer than 15 minutes against a pry bar. You simply won't bend plate that heavy by hand.

A C rate safe is also formidable against pry bars. A solid 1" door against a 1/2" body is tough, but at 1/2" you are starting to get into an area where bending the steel by hand is possible (although difficult).

I see B rate safes pried open on a fairly regular basis. These safes use a 1/2" door and 1/4" body (both of which are heavier than 7 gauge). On a pry attack, the door is usually stays intact while the body of the safe is pried away far enough to get the bar behind the door. It's all down hill from there. Most of these safes are also small depository safes, which are much more stout than a gun safe sized unit made out of the same materials.

All safes buy time. A Liberty may buy more than a Sentry. A Sturdy may buy more than a Liberty. A Graffunder may buy more than a Sturdy. The premise is to buy enough time that the bad guy(s) either give up or get caught in the act. As the value of the contents grow, so does the desire and sophistication of your bad guy(s).

You may live in a low crime area, and have a $10,000 collection. The OP lives in New York City, and may have a $1,000,000 collection (he hasn't said on the forum, nor would I ask him to say on the forum). I'm assuming since he's asking about a safe that can't be pried open, he's serious about it.

Their design is extremely robust for the amount of metal and material used.

Yes it is. However, it will not stop a determined pry attack.

You can also reinforce commonly attacked areas to extend the time required to break in with a torch or cutting attack for not much more.

It is rare to hear of a gun safe being attached with a torch, but there's not much you will do to a gun safe to slow a torch down.

One of these days I'll post some videos on youtube and link them to some of these discussions. We cut through 1" plate on a regular basis with a standard torch and it cuts fast. We have a plasma cutter that will slice 1/2" plate at about a foot every 10 seconds or so.

Obviously there are more substantial safes out there that cost a lot more and weigh a lot more but you didn't ask for that.

He asked for a safe that an average person with an axe or crowbar could not get into. A person with those tools could get into a Sturdy, even though it may take them longer than it would to get into a Liberty or a Sentry.

I'm amused to see quotation marks around the word expert when referring to A1abdj.

I've been called worse.

 

[Cearbhall]

The problem with a lot of (good) safes is they're too heavy to get into your house in a lot of cases, like mine for example. You might think about placing it where it will be difficult to get at it with crowbars, etc. like a small closet. Get a burglar alarm, too. You can wire one up for very little money, with flashing lights and siren.

Edit: I have a question for the safe pros here: Why A36 steel instead of, say, one of those 4xxx series of hardenable steels?

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Bf6032 OR G5931--is that thicker then 7ga

 

[adirondack]

Bf6032 OR G5931--is that thicker then 7ga

The BF6032 I believe is only 11ga steel on the outer skin. I wouldn't expect much by way of security from their "Drylight" insulation either.

 

[heeler]

After reading this thread I went and was viewing Sturdy's site and watched that pry test he conducted when they intentionally removed two of the safes bolt work and cut the notch in the door so a pry bar could get in there better.
I also went over to Liberty safes website and watched the torture test on their top of the line Presidential safe.
If you do this you will get a ringside seat in the difference of a composite type of gun safe door like Liberty's and a plate steel door like Sturdy's or Amsec's BF gun safe which is a full 3/16th of an inch thicker in door plate than the Sturdy.
Over at Sturdy those guys are using a hugh pry bar and the one at Liberty the bars are smaller.
But after they start prying the Liberty you can easily see the metal skin of the door face shimmering and quivering.
Not so on the Sturdy.
Please note that they show quite a bit more time on the prying over at Sturdy but shortly after the quivering starts on the Liberty safe they move on to something else.
I will gladly take solid plate steel on a gun safe door any day.
But in the end since both of these safes are laid on their backs so the guys doing the prying could obtain maximum leverage,just think how hard this would be if your Sturdy,Liberty Presidential(both use 7 gauge for the safe body)Amsec BF was well bolted down to your concrete slab and even better yet placed in a strategic corner so the perp cant get the kind of space needed to get leverage to the door in the first place.
And since most residential burglaries are played out in a matter of minutes you have a very good chance of totally thwarting an entry into your safe.
If they had hours or unlimited time eventually they could obviously get through with the right prying or battering tools.
But all of the safes mentioned here beats a 12 gauge safe with a flimsy composite door by yards.

 

[a1abdj]

Bf6032 OR G5931--is that thicker then 7ga

The BF6032 has two layers of steel with a concrete fill between. The cummulative thickness of both layers of steel is thicker than 7 gauge by a whopping 1/1000 of an inch.

I wouldn't expect much by way of security from their "Drylight" insulation either.

I suppose one could expect, or one could speak from real life experience. In my experience, cement filled safes are much more robust than their single skinned counterparts using materials of the same thickness. Even commercial fire safes can put up a good fight, even with thin steel skins and a fairly lightweight fill material.

Of course if you have a video or photos that show how weak a filled safe like the BF is, feel free to share it with us. Millions of fire/burglary safes are in use both residentially and commercially that are built using the same/similar construction. Not only do the buyers find them acceptable to meet their risk of burglaries, but insurance companies do so as well.

Over at Sturdy those guys are using a hugh pry bar and the one at Liberty the bars are smaller. But after they start prying the Liberty you can easily see the metal skin of the door face shimmering and quivering.
Not so on the Sturdy.

Manufacturers, especially Liberty, tend to be a bit sneaky when using videos and photos to demonstrate how tough their products are. There are all sorts of ways to make an event look much more serious than it is.

There are several gun safes, including Liberty, where you can flex the door by hand. Place your knee against the opening edge half way up, then grap the top corner with a free hand. Push on the knee and pull with the hand and you can see some of the flex.

But in the end since both of these safes are laid on their backs so the guys doing the prying could obtain maximum leverage,just think how hard this would be if your Sturdy,Liberty Presidential(both use 7 gauge for the safe body)Amsec BF was well bolted down to your concrete slab and even better yet placed in a strategic corner so the perp cant get the kind of space needed to get leverage to the door in the first place.

Bolting and placement can make a safe more difficult to pry on. If anything else, it keeps them from flipping your safe and damaging the contents, even if they do not get into it. Even though we suggest that everybody bolt their safes, only a small percentage of the safes we deliver ever get bolted.

And since most residential burglaries are played out in a matter of minutes you have a very good chance of totally thwarting an entry into your safe.

This is true, but a 5 minute attack in a high rise in New York will be different than a 5 minute attack in the suburbs, which will be different than a 5 minute attack out in the middle of the woods.

Each situation is unique, and may alter the choices you make not only in regards to the safe, but its placement and installation as well.

 

[heeler]

a1abdj,one thing I noticed on the Liberty safe attack is right before they started the pry attack after dropping the safe on it's back one of the guys went to the Presidential and started beating on the door with what appeared to be about a sixteen pound sledge hammer.
Do you think they did this to insure the relocker fired thus making it possibly harder to pry open??

 

[a1abdj]

Do you think they did this to insure the relocker fired thus making it possibly harder to pry open??

Most relockers simply block the boltwork from sliding into the open position. This usually does little to slow or prevent a pry only attack.

Pry attacks are really only a step above simply beating on the safe. It is hard work, and only successful if your brute efforts overcome that of the safe to resist. For a pry only attack to be successful, the door, frame, and boltwork of the safe must be distorted so that the door bolts clear the door frame.

Of course some attacks are a hybrid. One may beat or pry on a safe only to an extent that they can access the locking mechanism, then switch to a different method that allows entry. In this case, a relocker may come into play. Relockers in gun safes are usually simple in design, and placed near the lock, so it will only provide limited protection.

 

[Shadow 7D]

The more I read these threads, the more I think a cinderblock room with reinforced concrete and a hidden door is the way to go.

 

[a1abdj]

The more I read these threads, the more I think a cinderblock room with reinforced concrete and a hidden door is the way to go.

Cinderblock is weak

If you have the opportunity to have a poured concrete wall, that is the way to go.

 

[BADUNAME17]

A1abdj: “You can pretty much cut anything with the word gauge behind it with power tools. Even 1/4" can be cut quickly with a circular saw running the right blade.”

It’s the time an effort that changes with these types of thicknesses, considering the burglar would have the right tools and right amount of blades that can handle it.
The problem for burglars with circular saw attacks and torch attacks is that they will either generate very loud noises, sparks, smoking, or fires on the inside of the safe. All of which, draws attention to the burglar, and we know they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. We feel this is why torching and circular sawing is a less likely attack to happen. Sturdy has been a repair station for all gun safes makes, so we know how they are breaking in, and we know how to prevent those attacks from successfully happening. There are other attacks that can be done to safes to get in a lot easier like drill punch attacks you should be worried about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2ql9gOWzw

btn:“Their (Sturdy Safes) design is extremely robust for the amount of metal and material used.”
A1abdj response: “ Yes it is. However, it will not stop a determined pry attack.”

This is simply not true with our 7 gauge safes. Everyone has seen the videos, the proof is there. Don’t loose your credibility with these good people with statements like this Frank. We are not saying all 7 gauge body safes with 5/16 doors (like ours) will protect you from a pry bar (because there is more than just thickness of steel that comes into play), however, we are stating a fact that our safes will protect you from a pry bar, and wood splitting wedges. Period.

heeler:“Over at Sturdy those guys are using a hugh pry bar and the one at Liberty the bars are smaller. But after they start prying the Liberty you can easily see the metal skin of the door face shimmering and quivering.
Not so on the Sturdy.”
A1abdj response: “ Manufacturers, especially Liberty, tend to be a bit sneaky when using videos and photos to demonstrate how tough their products are. There are all sorts of ways to make an event look much more serious than it is.”

I agree and I see the truth stretched with other manufacturers videos all the time, however, you better make it clear Sturdy is out of this equation, or you would be spreading lies about us. We have no problem showing anyone the full, unshortened, attack videos. Just ask, and we will upload anyone of them to our youtube account and send you a private link. We have made an extreme effort to show you the actual results of these types of attacks on our safes. If it didn‘t perform as we stated, it could potentially open us up to lawsuits, as well as unhappy customers/reviews and neither have, or ever will happen. Our safes will perform as the videos show and how we say they will.

 

[Shadow 7D]

And you pay for the paint, or you pay for the quality, the difference is this, a 'gunsafe' is a RSC, and comparing RSC is like comparing Toyota camery's and ford Taurus's, they are nice family sedans, and do a job, but then you get to a real tool rated safe, and you are comparing Mack trucks and Freighliners, not everybody need something that heavy, they both get you there, but they are definitely built different.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Wow, i just took a look at sturdy safe video and look strong for my co-op, by the waY are you guyS salemen of safes and who is a1abdj, he seem like a doctor of safes

 

[Shadow 7D]

Naw, the sales men are well documented (as in they name them selves the Co. name or list it in their sig line)

a1abdj is just a locksmith, who does a lot of safes and vaults etc. every day.
the rest of use just read a lot, much of it pointed out buy guys in the business like Frank and Alyssa

 

[a1abdj]

It’s the time an effort that changes with these types of thicknesses, considering the burglar would have the right tools and right amount of blades that can handle it.
The problem for burglars with circular saw attacks and torch attacks is that they will either generate very loud noises, sparks, smoking, or fires on the inside of the safe. All of which, draws attention to the burglar, and we know they don’t want to draw attention to themselves. We feel this is why torching and circular sawing is a less likely attack to happen.

Of course thicker materials provide more resistance. Of course certain tools cause conditions unfavorable to most burglars. Of course sophisticated attacks are rare.

Just because these things are true, does not mean that it doesn't happen. Some people are concerned about torch attacks because they have cutting torches in their garage. Others are worried about power tool attacks because they have power tools in their garage. Others may live in a penthouse high rise, and not be concerned about these types of attacks at all.

When somebody presents a request for a particular level of security, it is the job of a security professional to point them towards the proper product. The professional has to rely on first hand experience and facts, not opinion or emotion.

The OP asked for a safe that would keep somebody with a pry bar out. He didn't specify a time period, so I'm assuming he meant forever. That means that you have to have a safe using steel of sufficient strength to resist bending my hand. That puts you in the 1/2" thick or greater category.

This is simply not true with our 7 gauge safes. Everyone has seen the videos, the proof is there. Don’t loose your credibility with these good people with statements like this Frank. We are not saying all 7 gauge body safes with 5/16 doors (like ours) will protect you from a pry bar (because there is more than just thickness of steel that comes into play), however, we are stating a fact that our safes will protect you from a pry bar, and wood splitting wedges. Period.

They will protect you....for a period of time. I could open your safe with a prybar given enough time. I'm not going to loose any credibility here, because it's fact. I can post photos of safes built heavier than yours that have been pried open. Be careful stating facts, as they leave you open to lawsuits.

The only way to stop a pry attack is to use materials that can't be pried. The only way to stop a drill attack is to use materials that can't be drilled. The only way to prevent a torch attack is to use materials that can't be torched.

The problem is that most materials can be pried, drilled, and torched given enough time. Where does that leave us? That leaves us with materials that will slow, but not stop a thief. Your Sturdy safes will buy more time than a Liberty, but a Graffunder using heavier materials will buy more time than your Sturdy. An ISM using better materials can give you at least an hour against tools, torches, and explosives. How much protection do you need, and how much do you want to spend?

owever, you better make it clear Sturdy is out of this equation, or you would be spreading lies about us.

I didn't put you in that equation. You did. If there's something you wish to confess, feel free to do so.

 

[BIGGBAY90]

Frank g5931--or sturdy 7ga--which can stop pry and ax attack or is it just the same protection with different names

 

[a1abdj]

Frank g5931--or sturdy 7ga--which can stop pry and ax attack or is it just the same protection with different names

The G5931 is going to have more steel than the Sturdy in both the body (1/4" cumulative vs. 7 gauge .1793") and the door (1/2" cumulative vs. 5/16"), and also has a cement fill.

Both would fare well against an axe, and both would stop somebody with a small prybar. Both would slow somebody with a large pry bar.

The door on the G5931 has three layers of steel in it, the thickest being 1/4". It would hold up well to a brute force attack. In fact, the safe is a commercial fire and burlgary unit that has been fitted as a gun safe.

 

[btn]

1/4" cumulative

We've all seen the video's/pictures of how 11 gauge doesn't stand up to a fire axe...

I don't buy into this cumulative stuff. You can get through 11 gauge with a fire axe. Then you can get through 1 or 1.5 inches of concrete with a fire axe. Then all thats left is the 11 gauge again. Boom, you're in.

If you going to call a it 1/4 inch of steel it should be a 1/4 inch...

 

[BADUNAME17]

A1abdj: The OP asked for a safe that would keep somebody with a pry bar out. He didn't specify a time period, so I'm assuming he meant forever. That means that you have to have a safe using steel of sufficient strength to resist bending my hand. That puts you in the 1/2" thick or greater category.

How long exactly do you think it would take you to pry open our safe? Forever? A year? Given enough time, I'm sure you can file a hole in the body with a metal file, but do you see how ridiculous that is? In addition, how would you go about getting the pry bar started? Because you can not get a pry bar started anywhere on our safe door in the first place. Our 5/16 doors are fully recessed all the way around the 7 gauge body, there are tight tolerances that will not allow a prybar of any size to fit, the body and door seat is made from one sheet of steel so there is no splicing anywhere and most the framing heavily welded to the inside the door is made from 7 gauge as well. Don't take it personal Frank, it goes for you and anyone else stating false information about us for their own personal gain.

To BIGGBAY90- For most of our customers it's getting:
1. as much thick steel as you can, for the price you are paying. We have many extra options that can bring the total thickness even greater than most for way less.
2. linkage that has a warranty to last a lifetime and can take years of abuse. For example, you shouldn't need to be careful about slamming a safes door that has a glass relocker in it.
3. the most effective fire insulator available. With us, fire liner is just an option because some people don't need it, and therefor shouldn't need to pay the high cost for a real insulator.
4. a real American product.
These are just 4 of many areas we excel.

heeler:“Over at Sturdy those guys are using a hugh pry bar and the one at Liberty the bars are smaller. But after they start prying the Liberty you can easily see the metal skin of the door face shimmering and quivering.
Not so on the Sturdy.”
A1abdj: “ Manufacturers, especially Liberty, tend to be a bit sneaky when using videos and photos to demonstrate how tough their products are. There are all sorts of ways to make an event look much more serious than it is.”
Sturdy Safes response To A1abdj: I agree and I see the truth stretched with other manufacturers videos all the time, however, you better make it clear Sturdy is out of this equation, or you would be spreading lies about us. We have no problem showing anyone the full, unshortened, attack videos. Just ask, and we will upload anyone of them to our youtube account and send you a private link. We have made an extreme effort to show you the actual results of these types of attacks on our safes. If it didn‘t perform as we stated, it could potentially open us up to lawsuits, as well as unhappy customers/reviews and neither have, or ever will happen. Our safes will perform as the videos show and how we say they will.
A1abdj response Sturdy: I didn't put you in that equation. You did. If there's something you wish to confess, feel free to do so.

Thank you for making it clear Frank. I feel you didn't make it clear and it needed to be clarified, or you would be misleading people. I'm out of here. If anyone has any questions please give us a call.

Thank you to all our happy customers too! We would be nothing without you guys spreading the word. You guys rock.

 

[CeeZar]

I am VERY happy with my Sturdy safe and the customer service that came with it. I was also very happy with Frank's work in moving it down my basement stairs.

If you have ANY questions, take Alyssa up on her offer. Call Sturdy. They will spend as much time as it takes to answer your questions about their product.