Stupid 1911 Question!

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spiroxlii

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All right... I own a striker-fired autoloader and a couple of DA/SA autoloaders with decockers. I do not own a 1911, but a RIA is on my list, and if I get it, I'd be interested in carrying it. I've heard that the way most 1911 toters do it is "cocked and locked," but I was looking at my other handguns, and I started to wonder.

My carry methods:

1. With the HS2000/XD9, I carry with a round chambered. This made me nervous at first, but I have learned to trust the grip and trigger safeties to do their job as long as I maintain proper trigger finger discipline. There is no way that I know of to decock an HS/XD/Glock once you chamber a round, so you pretty much have to trust the grip/trigger safeties.

2. With my Bersa Thunders (380 and 9mm), I carry with a round chambered and the safety/decocker OFF, but I flip the decocker/safety lever on and off once after I chamber a round. That lowers the hammer without firing the weapon and makes the first trigger pull a long and hard DA pull. I feel comfortable enough with the DA pull that I do not feel the need to leave the safety/decocker switch engaged.

I was letting my dad shoot my Bersa Thunder UC9 the other day, and I watched him decock it by pulling the trigger and "thumbing down" the hammer instead of using the decocking lever. Then I thought about the way I load five rounds and then thumb down the hammer on an empty chamber in my 1873 Single Action.

As I said, I want a 1911, and if I'm going to carry an autoloader, I'm going to carry it with a round chambered. My reason for carrying with a round chambered isn't necessarily because I'm worried about how much time it takes to rack the slide. It has more to do with the fact that racking a slide takes two hands, and in a personal defense situation, my "off" hand may be otherwise engaged.

The question:
If I chambered a round in a 1911, could I effectively "decock" it by thumbing down the hammer gently after pulling the trigger? I would point it in a safe direction first, of course. That way, I wouldn't have just a manual safety switch and a single action trigger pull between me and BOOM. And if I had to fire it, I could easily draw the pistol and cock the hammer with one hand.
 
Not safe to decock it that way - either carry it cocked and locked or with an empty chamber. Rack the slide using the rear sight if your other hand is occupied.
 
Why is it unsafe to decock it that way? Is it because you could slip while thumbing it down and accidentally allow the hammer to strike too hard, resulting in a discharge?

Or is it because resting the hammer down on a chambered round could cause the gun to fire if bumped/dropped? That's why you don't carry with a live round under the hammer on an 1872 SAA or an SAA clone.
 
The former - the firing-pin on a 1911 is short and doesn't actually touch the primer, so bumping the hammer won't do anything.

I'm not saying you're incompetent - but the simple fact is that it just doesn't take much to have a hammer slip onto a live round while decocking; I've seen it happen twice (to others).
 
spiroxlii said:
Why is it unsafe to decock it that way? Is it because you could slip while thumbing it down and accidentally allow the hammer to strike too hard, resulting in a discharge?

Or is it because resting the hammer down on a chambered round could cause the gun to fire if bumped/dropped?
Click to expand...
Both. On older 1911 designs, there is no firing pin safety.

Just practice your safe gun handling and carry it cocked and locked, like it was designed for.
 
I'm not REALLY that spooked by carrying cocked and locked. After all, I have carried an HS2000/XD9 with a round chambered, and all I had to depend on then was the grip/trigger safety.

I'll carry cocked and locked. I will keep my finger off the trigger until I'm ready to fire as usual. The idea of decocking a 1911 by thumbing down the hammer may or may not be a good idea, but I tend to agree with AndyC. If I make a habit of thumbing down the hammer on a 1911, I'm going to slip sooner or later and fire the weapon.
 
If it helps, remember that the grip-safety also has to be held down before the 1911 will fire, so it's not just the thumb-safety you're relying upon (assuming it's working properly, of course).

The best safety is between your ears, of course - don't trust your life to a mechanical device ;)
 
And if I had to fire it, I could easily draw the pistol and cock the hammer with one hand.
Click to expand...
In my own experimentation (gun quadruply checked to be sure it was empty), I found it nearly impossible to do one-handed. (Granted, a spur hammer would probably make this easier than the Commander-style hammers on mine.) Perhaps you are more dextrous than I, but are you going to be able to do it under extreme stress? Using my support hand thumb to cock the hammer worked fairly well, but this goes back to the problem of having to use both hands. By contrast, it is a relatively natural and easy motion to wipe off the safety as the gun comes up on target.
 
The 1911 is designed to be carried in condition 1. It is perfectly safe to carry it this way. Manually decocking it, otoh, is a very bad idea. DON'T DO IT!
 
I know, the military isn't always the best reference -

They used Condition 3 or Condition 1, depending on the urgency of the environment. (Or "Embassy carry", which was Condition 3 with the magazine in your pocket!)

No Condition 2. It's dangerous to execute. Sooner or later, you're going to slip and it will fire. Remember, it isn't enough to point it in a safe direction. That just ensures you don't hurt someone else. You also have to worry about having your thumb reassembled after the slide hits it. :)
 
Without getting into the question of whether or not it's dangerous to lower a 1911 hammer on a loaded chamber, condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber) is still an undesirable way to carry a 1911. Condition 2 is very inefficient.

Cocking a 1911 hammer with one hand is, IME, very awkward. It will at least delay putting the gun into play. And since fine motor skill deteriorate under stress, the probability of botching the job when confronted with a serious threat is high. If the hammer slips while you're trying to get it cocked, or you don't otherwise get it cocked, you're holding a small, and pretty useless club.

Everywhere I've trained taught carrying a 1911 in condition 1. I've on hot ranges where everyone wearing a 1911 carried in it that way. Whenever I have been able to carry in public legally, I have carried a 1911 and carried it cocked and locked. I have been with, talked with and trained with others who have habitually carried a 1911 in that manner. And indeed those with whom I've trained who routinely go about in public armed with a 1911 would not consider carrying a 1911 in any other way. I've not heard of mishaps arising from that mode of carry.

I think that the most appropriate way to carry a 1911 is in condition 1.
 
Last edited:
spiroxlii said:
The question:
If I chambered a round in a 1911, could I effectively "decock" it by thumbing down the hammer gently after pulling the trigger? I would point it in a safe direction first, of course. That way, I wouldn't have just a manual safety switch and a single action trigger pull between me and BOOM. And if I had to fire it, I could easily draw the pistol and cock the hammer with one hand.
Click to expand...
There's a lot of debate about just how safe (or unsafe) decocking a 1911 is. It isn't like your SAA, because you do that over an empty chamber, whereas with the 1911 you're doing it with one in the pipe.

There's also the issue of whether or not with the hammer resting on the firing pin you could accidently set it off. It's highly unlikely -- it's an inertia firing pin and it would be virtually impossible to strike the hammer hard enough to move the firing pin fast and far enough to fire the round. But ...

The biggest question is whether you can actually "easily draw the pistol and cock the hammer with one hand." My bet is ... you can't. The first thing that degrades under stress is fine motor coordination. Plus ... you sweat. Combine stress, sweat, reduced coordination, and trying to pull back the hammer on the pistol, and you have a potential problem.

The pistol was designed and intended to be carried cocked and locked. The official military manuals called for carrying UNLOADED in secure areas, and cocked and locked when "action is imminent." AFAIAC, when you're out on the street carrying for self defense, the potential for action is "imminent" and cocked and locked is the only way to go. It's MUCH easier to sweep off the thumb safety than it is to fumble around trying to cock the hammer.
 
Unloading a 1911 style or clone auto from the cocked and locked (chamber loaded) position. Holding the weapon in a safe direction and with your finger nowhere near the trigger, remove the magazine. Release the thumb safety and rack the slide ejecting the round in the chamber. Done and no one hurt and no Negligent Discharge...Never lower the hammer on a live round in the chamber. Your finger could slip. There is a half cock to prevent a ND, but I wouldn't trust it.

The Firestars have a neat system in that you can rack the slide with the thumb safety on which gives an added safety margin when ejecting the chambered round...
 
I'll never understand why people keep asking about this (no offense) when Condition one always has at least 2 safeties, 3 if there's a firing pin safety, and 4 if you're thinking. Cocked and locked is the safest way to go.

Hammer down on a live round means only the firing pin safety (if you have one) is between you and a negligent discharge.

And the RIA 1911's don't have a firing pin block, so to carry hammer down on a live round is insanely dangerous.
 
John M Browning designed the 1911 originally without
the Grip Safety - which if not fully engaged separates
the trigger from connecting with the Hammer Strut which
is what causes the sear to be released. The US Army
still thinking of mounted cavalry troops required it.

Thumb Safety blocks the hammer travel.

1911s with Internal FIring Pin BLock mechanism
Colt Series 80
S&W 1911s
Kimber II - I believe

Lowering the hammer on a 1911 is a Bad Idea(TM)

My natural movement of my hand in trying to do it one
handed is to put my trigger finger on the trigger for
opposing leverage - so this is not something to do
for ME. That said I do also have, in addition to a
SW1911, CZ 75B which allows Cond. One Carry option
but I drop the hammer manually for a hammer down DA
first shot. I drop the hammer using my off hand index
finger to let the hammer down slow and sure to quarter
cock. 1911 carry = Milt Sparks #Axiom - it carries the
gun with the trigger guard covered & rides close to the body
in a "FBI" (muzzle rearward ) Cant. Cond. One,

I've thought of changing the stock thumb safety to a
Wilson Combat extended model, but it is so positive I'm
thinking it ain't broke so don't 'fix' it. The same might
be said bout your wanting to go against the 1911
Manual of Arms.

Randall
 
I'll never understand why people keep asking about this (no offense) when Condition one always has at least 2 safeties, 3 if there's a firing pin safety, and 4 if you're thinking. Cocked and locked is the safest way to go.
Click to expand...

We keep asking because those of us who haven't carried 1911 style pistols often carry some DA/SA pistol with a decocker, and we are used to the idea that a single action trigger pull is extremely easy. That's why we generally use our decockers and trust the double action first trigger pull to be safe, since DAO models like the P3AT and snub nose concealed hammer revolvers are regularly carried with no manual safety.

Since DA/SA and DAO toters have the habit of trusting a DA trigger pull to be their primary (sometimes ONLY) safety, some of us have the irrational fear that the safety lever on a 1911 could be accidentally disengaged during carry, leaving a clean and easy single action trigger pull as the only thing between us and a discharge.

That's because we forget two important facts:

1. 1911s also have a grip safety, so in the highly unlikely event that the manual safety does get disengaged, an "accidental" trigger pull should not fire the weapon.

2. There should never be an "accidental" trigger pull if you have a holster that covers the trigger and if you keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you're ready to fire.

As I said in a previous post, carrying a 1911 in condition one may unnerve somebody who is used to a DA/SA or a DAO weapon, but anybody who has carried an XD or a Glock might actually feel safer with a 1911 in condition one. It won't bug me to carry a 1911 cocked and locked once I get my hands on one. I was mostly curious about just how dumb decocking a 1911 would be.

As for the issue of drawing and cocking the hammer at the same time, I hadn't considered how hard that might be on a 1911. My only SA guns are revolvers like my 1873 SAA, and it has a big hammer that is meant to be thumb cocked before every single shot. The 1911s I'm looking at are USGI-style models with spur hammers that look like they were designed to be thumb operated, not the lightened and/or bobbed hammers on more modern clones. Considering that the original issue 1911s had spur hammers, was there EVER a time when it was appropriate to operate the hammer with your thumb?
 
My .02 cents. If you are serious about carrying a m1911 then I highly recommend that you also pick up a mk2/3 22/45 from Ruger. They were designed as a trainer for the m1911 and are also one of the best .22 pistols out there for the price. You can cheaply and effectively practice with the Ruger then move to the m1911. I find that the 1911 is all about muscle memory when carrying in condition 1.
 
by BlindJustice"John M Browning designed the 1911 originally without
the Grip Safety - which if not fully engaged separates
the trigger from connecting with the Hammer Strut which
is what causes the sear to be released. The US Army
still thinking of mounted cavalry troops required it."

I disagree. The hammer strut isn't contacted by the trigger stirrup. The stirrup contacts the disconnector and that contacts the sear.
Joe
 
And the RIA 1911's don't have a firing pin block, so to carry hammer down on a live round is insanely dangerous.
Click to expand...
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Hammer down, it is resting against the rear of the slide.
And you can beat it to death with a big steel bar and it cannot set of the round in the chamber.

The only way a 1911 firing pin can hit a primer is from it being hit from a full force blow from a cocked hammer.

That gives it enough momentum to drive foreword out of the hole in the slide and set off a round.

Otherwise, the inertia firing pin is never in contact with the round in the chamber at all.

rcmodel
 
Why is it unsafe to decock it that way? Is it because you could slip while thumbing it down and accidentally allow the hammer to strike too hard, resulting in a discharge?
Click to expand...

This wasn't a 1911 but a few years ago, a local police officer thumbed down the hammer instead of using the decocker lever. He slipped. A young man was killed and race riots followed. That's why the safest way to decock a 1911 is to eject the mag and rack the slide to eject the round in the chamber. However, there's nothing wrong with it staying cocked and locked if you also use it as your home defense weapon.

Also, there is NO genuine debate about the best way to carry a 1911. Cocked and locked is the only way. As others have noted, carrying with hammer down on a chambered round can be dangerous. And carrying without a round chambered has significant drawbacks if you actually have to use it for defense. Civilian carry is different than military carry. Civilians most often need there gun with little or no notice. Most of the time, the military will know when to chamber the round and be on the ready.

Also keep in mind that many of the polymer pistols are essentially carried half or three-fourths of the way cocked with only a trigger safety.
 
OK, to clarify:

Condition two (hammer down on a live round) is NOT DANGEROUS while being carried. There seems to be some misunderstanding about this. The gun cannot fire, even without a firing pin safety, unless inertia moves the firing pin into contact with the primer with enough force to activate it. This is a very unlikely event, even if dropped. However, if inertia does overcome the firing pin spring with enough force to fire, it doesn't matter if you are in condition one or two.

The danger of condition two comes from two other factors. One is that if you need to use your gun to defend yourself, you need to manipulate the hammer back to be able to fire it. There is no guarantee you will have the time it takes to do this and still save your skin.

You also have the risk of lowering and raising the hammer on a live round. While most half-cock notches will save you should the hammer slip out of control while cocking, it can go off if it slips before the half-cock notch is reached. When lowering, the trigger needs to be pulled to lower it. At this point, there are no safeties engaged-not the grip, thumb, firing pin, or halfcock. If it slips, it's gonna go bang.

There is no absolute right way to carry. However, I find the only way that makes sense to me is condition one, cocked and locked, and I recommend that way to everyone.
 
KyJim touched on what I was thinking:

Should you ever (heaven forbid) need to draw your pistol in self-defense, your thumb could very easily slip and drop the hammer while cocking it, and unjustifiably end up shooting someone, resulting in assault/manslaughter charges at best, and homicide charges at worst.

Sam
 
If you should want to safely lower the hammer on your 1911 with a loaded chamber (for whatever reason), place your left thumb (assuming you are right handed) in front of the hammer. Place your right hand in the firing position, pressing the grip safety & trigger while having your right thumb on the hammer to lower it slowly. As soon as the trigger releases the hammer, take your finger off of the trigger, slowly remove your left thumb from in front of the hammer as you continue to lower it with your right thumb until it hits the "half cock" notch. You are done. Leave the hammer at the notch. I never do this with a loaded gun, I see no reason to carry a S/A 1911 wth the hammer down. I do this only to store an empty pistol and to ease the tension on the hammer spring while doing so.
 
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