Why is it, that when people describe DA/SA...

[Thomas_81]

If you buy a gun, or any potentially dangerous tool, and don't read the manual, you are probably stupid...but that is a completely different issue.

 

[mgmorden]

If you buy a gun, or any potentially dangerous tool, and don't read the manual, you are probably stupid...but that is a completely different issue.

How is it a different issue? How can an issue be made of saying that colloquial use of a term might be confusing to a novice (but clear once you have experience), but the fact that the operation is explained as clear as day in the manual not be relevant?

Fact is by the way most people carry a DA/SA, the first trigger pull WILL be DA. If the owner is confused by that and chooses to go off half-cocked (or really fully cocked in this case) without reading the manual or at a minimum familiarizing themselves with the weapon, then it's the owner's negligence when it does something they weren't expecting.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If I am a novice, I read this, then go out and buy a Beretta 92FS... load the magazine, rack the slide, take the safety off, and fire...Im going to be pretty confused when the first shot is not fired in Double Action. I wasn't told that the first shot will be fired in Double Action if I decock the hammer after a round has been chambered, then pull the trigger, only that the first round is fired in Double Action... which wasn't true, in this example.

Just for the sake of clarity, I'll point out that in your example, the first shot would be in the DA mode.

If you rack the slide of a Beretta 92ES and then tale the safety off, that would imply that the safety was on. In the on position the Beretta would automatically decock the hammer as the slide is released. When you take the safety off to fire, you would be starting from a hammer down position

 

[mgmorden]

If you rack the slide of a Beretta 92ES and then tale the safety off, that would imply that the safety was on. In the on position the Beretta would automatically decock the hammer as the slide is released. When you take the safety off to fire, you would be starting from a hammer down position

That's actually a good catch. My Ruger P95 works the same way too. The safety operates as a decocker, so if you rack the slide with the safety on the gun comes back to battery with the hammer down. You literally can't cock the gun with the safety engaged.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

Lots of good info that I have to ruminate upon to make certain I know all I understand about this subject.

Not to go off point, but I would like someone who has more technical expertise than I, to explain the difference between Sigs DAK trigger and HKs LEM trigger. Anyone?

 

[rellascout]

Good article on the DAK http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/sig070606/index1.html

Basically it is a DAO trigger with a shorter stroke capability on follow up shots.

HK LEM is a pre-cocked DAO. The trigger pull on the LEM is the same length as a typical DA. As you pull the trigger, the hammer moves back. However, since the spring is pre-cocked, it is very light until the break point.

IMHO it is simply a matter of preference. One is not mechanically better than the other. I have owned a DAK and sold it after a few hundred rounds. Not my cup of tea.

 

[makarovnik]

I think the description is correct. Double action means that with the hammer down (or striker fully decocked), pulling the trigger can cause it to move rearward and then forward to fire. A true single action pistol is not capable of doing this.

Now what I have a beef with is someone calling a semi-auto pistol double action only when it doesn't have second strike capability. If it doesn't have second strike capability it's not really a full and complete double action. I don't know maybe that is along the same lines as the point the OP was making, I'm very tired today.

Let's call the Glock and similar type striker fired pistols 1 1/2 action. Naw, they might as well be called single action only.

 

[BlindJustice]

O.P. - sez Isnt a DA/SA pistol only in DA if a round is chambered, and then the gun is decocked? Since at least half of the modern semi autos dont have a decocker, or even an external hammer, why is DA/SA universally explained this way? Is it not reasonable to assume that since most people dont carry, and fewer still carry with a round chambered, gun deocked, that most users will almost never pull the trigger in DA?


Those ones with no decocker or safey - the Glock was
defined as a DAO - DOuble Action Only

I think the reason why it's DA/SA is because most manufacturers
recommend a procedure of putting the wepon into a status safe
to holster. Thus decock it via the decoker or if no decocker manully
lower the hammer if Condition One Cocked & Locked is not
desired. and it's convention for more decades than you probably
know.

R-

 

[BlindJustice]

O.P.: Wouldn't most Instructors encourage any prospective or new owersn TO READ THE MANUAL?

CZ 75B Manual instructs to lower the hammer to the "Safety" NOtch.
Introduced in 1975 - I always drop the hammer manually blocking
it with my left index finger to get it into the condition I carry it.

WIth my 1911 each new magazine I put the safety on, so it has to
be taken off prior to the first shot.
\
Practice Practice the correct use of the weapon....

The CZ 75 added a 1911 style thumb safety which seems an
improvement over the Walthehr P-38 - first full size
DA/SA Service pistol..


Revolvers that are nominally referred to DA are
really DA/SA - some small framed revolvers have enclosed
or shrouded hammers and are DAO. The normal way to
carry a DA(/SA) revolver is hammer down

The way actions have evolved and the names we have for them
are rooted in tradition and the transition to the semi-auto
which cocks itself via the slide - using your thumb is not needed.

R-

 

[fatcat4620]

Have to correct the thing you said about the PT145. It is SA/DA in that order since there no decocker and no way to chamber a round without cocking the striker. A friend has one and I looked at this alot. I would classify it as a SA (can be cocked and locked) and has a seconed strike function.

 

[Thomas_81]

How is it a different issue? How can an issue be made of saying that colloquial use of a term might be confusing to a novice (but clear once you have experience), but the fact that the operation is explained as clear as day in the manual not be relevant?

So, you are saying a random newb should be expected to go, "Oh, that's how it works. Well, that is how he is saying it works, but he probably has a reason to over-simplify it. Let me go find a random manual in a PDF file online."

That's a little ridiculous, especially when said person doesn't even know what type of gun they want, let alone the make. Would you do that if you were shopping for a refrigerator, or would you just want the features/function of a general type to be explained as clearly as possible in review, and consult the manual for the specific details later?

A more accurate way to explain a DA/SA pistol, would be "The trigger in these types of pistols can function as the cocking mechanism of the hammer/striker, and due to that... yadda yadda." Simply saying, "These pistols fire the first shot in Double Action", is like saying "This car does 0-60 in 3 seconds flat.", without mentioning that it will only do that with the Launch Control activated.

Driving a manual transmission is the easiest thing in the world to actually do, but when you teach somebody how to do it for the first time, you might as well be talking to a 6 year old about Astrophysics. If you are going to assume anything, you need to assume that the person seeking the information knows absolutely nothing, and go from there. How anybody can diagree with that point, is beyond me.

 

[LiveLife]

This kind of firearms education used to be done on grand/father/mother-to-son/daughter and seasoned shooters-to-newbie shooters basis with pistols in hand, "Look at this pistol - this is how it works."

Now that we have the internet and many with no personal access to firearms experience/resource turn to forums like this.

There are many that want/need information and can only browse/lurk the forums and some muster up the courage to ask. In the spirit of the High Road, we should attempt to properly and courteously share and educate the future generations of shooters.

OK, back to OP.

 

[rellascout]

Sorry Thomas81 I think that you are getting yourself all worked up over nothing.

Look at you orginal post:

Why is it, that when people describe DA/SA...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

they always say that the first shot is double action?

As stated in my other thread, I am a newb when it comes to semi autos, but how is that true?

When you load a magazine, you have to rack the slide and chamber the round for anything to happen when you pull the trigger. When you do that, is the trigger not in single action for the subsequent shot, everytime?

Isnt a DA/SA pistol only in DA if a round is chambered, and then the gun is decocked? Since at least half of the modern semi autos dont have a decocker, or even an external hammer, why is DA/SA universally explained this way? Is it not reasonable to assume that since most people dont carry, and fewer still carry with a round chambered, gun deocked, that most users will almost never pull the trigger in DA?

What am I not getting here?

You posed a question which IMHO is born out of lack of experience with handguns and the way in which their actions work. You then go on to make statements which are innaccurate and make gross assumptions on your part based soley on your limited time shooting. You asked a question: Is it not reasonable to assume that since most people dont carry, and fewer still carry with a round chambered, gun deocked, that most users will almost never pull the trigger in DA? People have answered that in full. They have illustrated that in fact most people who own a DA/SA handgun will infact shoot it in the DA mode quite a bit and for good reason. You then continued to contend that "most shooters" will never shoot the gun in DA which I am sorry to say is an absurd statement.

People have pointed out, for the most part politely why this is the case. They have also stated why and how they decock their DA/SA guns. I used to own a 75B and I would lower the hammer mannually. They have explained how the different actions on guns work. They have poined out exceptions to the rule. They have pointed out why the DA pull on a handgun is so important to many shooters. They finally pointed out and I believe rightfully so that it is a wise thing for any new shooter to educate themselves before buying a gun or using a gun.

I am not sure why you are taking such offense. Your car analogy simply does not hold up because on forums like this 80% of the time we are assuming a reasonable decent working knowledge of firearms. Most reviews in magazines also assume a working knowledge of firearms. We assume we are speaking to someone with some base knowledge. When someone posts I "have no firearms experience" please explain something to me there is a different approach.

I used to use my Sig P228 to teach people to shoot all the time. The DA/SA trigger as its safety mechinism was one of the first things I showed them. Chamber a round and decock the gun. The gun is not in DA mode. This leaves the gun in a safe condition for carry and for range use because of the longer DA pull required to now fire the gun. All follow up shots will be fired in SA. This will be a shorter lighter trigger.

I am sorry there was no one to properly explain this to you before you got your pistol but I have to ask why are you taking that out on us?

 

[SSN Vet]

These terms evolve in context.... making reference to the technology that already existed at the time...

DA/SA illudes to the distinction between DA/SA revolvers and SA revolvers.

When applied to semi-automatic hand guns it is intended to distinguish between the familiar single action design familiar to many (m1911) which can not cock the hammer (or charge the striker) by pulling the trigger, and those that can.

OBTW... I think you will find a LOT more DA/SA semi-autos that have decockers than those that don't.

Now just to muddy the waters, consider the Taurus designs that have a "second strike" capability. I refer to these as SA/DA myself.

The OP apparently doesn't like the use of the term DA/SA. What better term would you suggest to describe handguns like the typical M9.

 

[Thomas_81]

Sorry Thomas81 I think that you are getting yourself all worked up over nothing.

Look at you original post:

...You then continued to contend that "most shooters" will never shoot the gun in DA which I am sorry to say is an absurd statement.

This again.

The problem is, that people are reading one sentence, taking it completely out of context, and ignoring what my only real point has been this whole time.

They finally pointed out and I believe rightfully so that it is a wise thing for any new shooter to educate themselves before buying a gun or using a gun.

Exactly. So it stands to reason, that all basic/common/simple rules and functions, should be explained with those types of people in mind. They don't seem to be, which is my point.

Your car analogy simply does not hold up because on forums like this 80% of the time we are assuming a reasonable decent working knowledge of firearms. Most reviews in magazines also assume a working knowledge of firearms. We assume we are speaking to someone with some base knowledge.

Anybody with a "decent working knowledge of firearms", doesn't need to be told how a Double Action trigger functions, so that's a moot point. In an open forum, in a particular conversation, I get that. I don't get that when it's in a "FAQ" or "beginner" context, which is the only situation I am talking about. To describe a DA/SA as "the first shot is fired in Double Action", is not even a good way to explain it to advanced gun owners, but it's certainly not a good way to explain it to anyone looking to buy their first semi-auto pistol.

They are not only assuming that the reader/viewer is experienced with these weapons, but they additionally assume that the reader/viewer will carry the weapon on a regular basis (most don't), which is when that function is "most" relevant. The bottom line being, the first shot isn't always fired in Double Action, and that may or may not be important to you at all, depending on how you intend to use the firearm. In any event, some clarity might be beneficial to those for whom the content should be intended for.

That's all I'm saying.

I am sorry there was no one to properly explain this to you before you got your pistol but I have to ask why are you taking that out on us?

I don't personally own a semi-auto, and I'm not taking anything out on anybody.

 

[rellascout]

This again.

The problem is, that people are reading one sentence, taking it completely out of context, and ignoring what my only real point has been this whole time.

So you come across as someone making definitive statements yet your completely wrong. You claim to be a newbie to semi auto handguns but even when corrected you would not concede the point or admit you have no idea what you are talking about. I would not have brought it up except after many people corrected you you felt the need to repeat the statement. :banghead: Sorry but you are coming across and someone unwilling to listen to the advice you have asked for.

Exactly. So it stands to reason, that all basic/common/simple rules and functions, should be explained with those types of people in mind. They don't seem to be, which is my point.

Are you suggesting that every review and comment should be dumbed down to the lowest possible level. I think a lot of knowledgeable people that post here are more than willing to help out the new guy but taking every review or comment about this gun or that to its lowest level would kill a board like this. I mean there are already hundreds of redundant threads. How many "which entry level 1911 should I get" threads are there already. The Trigger mechanism thread is not perfect but not bad... http://www.thehighroad.org//showthread.php?t=248556

DA/SA - Double Action / Single Action. These pistols fire the first round Double Action, and all following shots are fired single action. They generally use a decocking lever to safely lower the hammer, but block contact with the firing pin so the chambered round is not fired.
Caution Decockers can fail, so always point the pistol in a safe direction when decocking. Decocker failures are rare in modern firearms, but do occasionally happen. Some older designs are more prone to failure. If you have any doubt that a decocker is not working properly have the firearm checked by a competent gunsmith or armorer.

Professional reviews are also geared towards knowledgeable people. If you need basic firearms knowledge send me your address and I will send you a book from the NRA first pistol course.

To describe a DA/SA as "the first shot is fired in Double Action", is not even a good way to explain it to advanced gun owners, but it's certainly not a good way to explain it to anyone looking to buy their first semi-auto pistol.

They are not only assuming that the reader/viewer is experienced with these weapons, but they additionally assume that the reader/viewer will carry the weapon on a regular basis (most don't), which is when that function is "most" relevant. The bottom line being, the first shot isn't always fired in Double Action, and that may or may not be important to you at all, depending on how you intend to use the firearm. In any event, some clarity might be beneficial to those for whom the content should be intended for.

That's all I'm saying.

Sorry but again you are showing your ignorance. It is a perfect way to describe the function of a DA/SA gun. It does not matter if you are at the range or setting up for carry.

I decock all my DA/SA guns at the range. I do this because I do not always fire immediately after cambering a round and holding a DA/SA gun sans safety with the hammer cocked is not save. Again you are making huge assumptions about the use of a handgun based on your experience which you have already admitted is limited. How can you make any statements about what is "most relevant."

Again I think you have a burr in your side because someone did not explain this to you earlier. I am not sure why you feel the need to ask for further clarification. Do you now understand not a DA/SA gun works? How would you describe how the a gun like a P228 functions?

 

[JohnBT]

"To describe a DA/SA as "the first shot is fired in Double Action", is not even a good way to explain it to advanced gun owners, but it's certainly not a good way to explain it to anyone looking to buy their first semi-auto pistol."

Man, the guy at the gun counter where you (or anybody else) bought the gun could show you how the controls work and define the six basic terms in about, oh, one minute.

Sights.
Trigger.
Hammer.
Safety/Decocker.
Mag release.

Load mag like this.
Stick mag here.
Pull slide.
Aim.
Pull trigger in SA (define SA here).
Clear gun this this.

or

Rack slide.
Use decocker.
Aim.
Pull trigger in DA (define).
Clear gun.

or

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=shooting+double+action+pistol

 

[bigfatdave]

I don't personally own a semi-auto

Well, not to be rude, but if you had one and could tear it down you would see how silly this whole conversation is.

There are too many variations on the basic mechanisms of handguns to be specific in every instance. The guy at the gun counter isn't an instructor, he isn't an armorer, and he isn't there to educate every customer on the internal workings of the varied devices under the glass.
YES, a new shooter does have some responsibility to understand the basics, the register drone behind the counter can help you with ergonomics or maybe even a chance to dry-fire ... but expecting them to take every customer from 100% ignorance to detailed knowledge of internal workings is just silly.
NO, it isn't that hard to find; cutaway drawings, manuals, animated images, glossaries, or reviews of handguns - online, either at home or at the library. Failing that there are innumerable instructors out there, one can sit down and demonstrate these functions, allow the student to perform the functions, and ensure a basic working knowledge is imparted. Handguns are not rocket surgery, their mechanisms are established and generally fairly simple, the only complication being that the machinery works too fast to see in many cases.


Again, information age = no excuse for ignorance

 

[rbernie]

Let's try for less heat and more light. If that means that some of y'all need to step back from the thread from a bit - so be it. I would hate to have to do it for you.

 

[Thomas_81]

So you come across as someone making definitive statements yet your completely wrong.

No, I am not. You are simply hung up on the wording, despite the constant attempts on my behalf to clarify my point.

If I had replaced words like "most" with "a lot of", or "will" to "have to", I doubt you would even be participating in this discussion.

Are you suggesting that every review and comment should be dumbed down to the lowest possible level...

Have I said anything at all, in this whole thread, that would indicate that I believe this? I don't think I have, hence the liberal usage of words like "novice" and "new", and examples like "FAQ" etc etc.

Professional reviews are also geared towards knowledgeable people.

Which is fine, and not at all what I'm talking about.

Sorry but again you are showing your ignorance. It is a perfect way to describe the function of a DA/SA gun. It does not matter if you are at the range or setting up for carry.

Sorry, but I disagree. I am entitled to that opinion, because this is a subjective issue. I personally think that it is a piss poor way of describing it.

Again I think you have a burr in your side because someone did not explain this to you earlier. I am not sure why you feel the need to ask for further clarification. Do you now understand not a DA/SA gun works?

I'm not asking for clarification at this stage. I'm beyond that. I understand the function, and this thread has done nothing but give me confirmation in my original criticism. Other members here have described this function in a much more accurate and non assumptive way, which is precisely the way that this information should be disseminated, for inexperienced people who may be seeking it out. Bottom line.

 

[rellascout]

If I had replaced words like "most" with "a lot of", or "will" to "have to", I doubt you would even be participating in this discussion.

I would have not taken issue if you stated it in the form of a question not declarative statement. If your first post you asked a question but when shown why the term DA/SA is used you turn it into a declarative statement.

If you do not like how be have described DA/SA guns to you now that your understand it please demonstrate how you would describe it so we make sure this type of misunderstanding never happens again. The members of THR are not here to mislead, miss-inform, confuse or discourage new shooters. So please help us out. Please correct this statement for us.

DA/SA - Double Action / Single Action. These pistols fire the first round Double Action, and all following shots are fired single action. They generally use a decocking lever to safely lower the hammer, but block contact with the firing pin so the chambered round is not fired.
Caution Decockers can fail, so always point the pistol in a safe direction when decocking. Decocker failures are rare in modern firearms, but do occasionally happen. Some older designs are more prone to failure. If you have any doubt that a decocker is not working properly have the firearm checked by a competent gunsmith or armorer.

 

[Thomas_81]

There are too many variations on the basic mechanisms of handguns to be specific in every instance.

But there are things that are universal, and the most univseral/simple explanation should be offered when applicable.

If you do not like how be have described DA/SA guns to you now that your understand it please demonstrate how you would describe it so we make sure this type of misunderstanding never happens again. The members of THR are not here to mislead, miss-inform, confuse or discourage new shooters. So please help us out.

(edited to include your quote)

The fact that the trigger can cock the hammer/striker, is a universal explaination for how a Double Action trigger functions. If I knew nothing, and read that explanation, it would make perfect sense to me instantly, because virtually everyone on Earth knows what a trigger and a hammer are, and it's easy to digest that mechanical function mentally. In that case, it is simply the terminology that people aren't familiar with, not the function. If you then want to explain that subsequent shots are fired in Single Action, due to the cycling slide which automatically cocks the hammer/striker, that would be all the explanation one would need, at the most basic level.

Simply telling a newb that a DA/SA is a pistol that fires the first shot in double action, is not even completely true, let alone a sufficient way to explain it to a novice, because it not only assumes an understanding of the terminology, but it also only describes the result of particular series of actions, which one must assume, the reader/viewer does not comprehend yet. That would be when you would get into decockers, and conditions of carry, etc etc.

Specifics per a particular model, are what reviews and manuals are for. And I agree with you, that this is actually a very simple thing, but as I said before with my manual transmission example, if you drive one, you understand how simple it is, but when you were first taught, I'm sure you thought it was the most difficult thing in the world to understand.

 

[rbernie]

Y'all need to take your pissing contest offline - it has no place on THR.