stupid reloading question of the week: auto pistol powder with large charge volume?

[1KPerDay]

I guess I assumed that since red dot was "faster" it would require less volume. Silly assumption but as you're beginning to understand, I'm full of stupid questions.

I have an older (sealed 3 lbs metal) can of red dot already... does anyone see a huge issue with me using that for my first .45 ACP reloads (or any reloads) ever? If it indeed is bulkier than any other powder listed it seems to fit my requirements except in the accurate metering through the auto disk requirement. I might do my first reloads using my Redding powder measure just to make sure.

Let me know if there are any huge caveats to using red dot for a first-timer. I'll be loading berry's 230gr double struck plated round nose, and eventually 180 gr double struck "x-treme bullets" plated in .40 S&W.

 

[Walkalong]

I assumed that since red dot was "faster" it would require less volume

There is bulk density and then there is charge weight (which is based mostly on powder speed). Both come into play as far as filling the case well, as you just figured out.

Red Dot requires less charge weight because it is faster, but being a bulky powder, it still fills the case well.

any huge caveats to using red dot for a first-timer

Red Dot is fast and pressure peaks quickly when you get up there in charge weight. Just work up slow and you'll be fine.

 

[gamestalker]

Avoid faster burning powders such as Red Dot if you want to avoid possible double charges.
For the 3 cartridges you mentioned I've had excellent results with Longshot. It's been fairly clean and is impossible to drop a double charge with it. I also have been using HS-6 which is much cleaner than Longshot and also won't allow a double charge to go unnoticed. Both of those are higher velocity producing powders and do have a higher end working pressure, than the faster burning powders will facilitate. They can't be down charged below listed data as easily as fast burning one's can. Down charging HS-6, Longshot, and other typically slower burning powders, causes the normally stable, yet higher working pressures to become unpredictable.

 

[tac_driver]

WSF
softer shooting
clean burning
extremely accurate
makes power factor easily
measures easily
cool burning
not expensive like VitaVouri N320

230gr 45ACP - 5.9 - 763fps
147gr. 9MM - 4.1 - 916fps
don't shoot .40

 

[LiveLife]

tac_driver, I have used WSF for 45 and 9mm, but never tried for 40S&W - I have no idea why?

<looking at 8 lb container of WSF > Hmmmmm, now I gotta try it. Thanks!

 

[1KPerDay]

Avoid faster burning powders such as Red Dot if you want to avoid possible double charges.

That was my primary assumption, and based on bds' chart and the Lee info from the auto-disc volume, that would seem to be incorrect. Double charges with red dot, being a higher volume powder than the others mentioned, would be easier to see and prevent than the less bulky powders.

At least if I'm reading the information correctly.

It is NOT my intention to start any arguments at all; I just want to make sure I have my info correct.

Thanks to all.

 

[RidgwayCO]

Lee's VMD (volume measure density) listing used to be on their website, but has been mysteriously removed...

Anyway, here are some of the VMDs of the powders I use (a higher number means it's less dense/more fluffy):

.2260 .. IMR Trail Boss (least dense)
.1490 .. Hodgdon Clays
.1413 .. *Alliant Red Dot
.1319 .. Alliant Unique
.1180 .. VihtaVuori N310
.1160 .. VihtaVuori N320
.1090 .. VihtaVuori N330
.1075 .. IMR SR4756
.1070 .. VihtaVuori N340
.1064 .. *Alliant Bullseye
.1007 .. Accurate #2
.0931 .. *Winchester 231
.0926 .. *Hodgdon HP38
.0889 .. Alliant Power Pistol
.0847 .. *Hodgdon Titegroup
.0712 .. *Hodgdon HS6
.0623 .. *Accurate #5 (this is the most dense powder listed, including the rifle powders)


For info purposes, VMD = cubic centimeters divided by weight in grains, so then the weight in grains = cubic centimeters divided by VMD. Also, I don't stock the powders listed with an asterisk (*), so their numbers come from the Lee charts.

 

[1KPerDay]

Interesting. Thanks

 

[LiveLife]

That was my primary assumption, and based on bds' chart and the Lee info from the auto-disc volume, that would seem to be incorrect.

At least if I'm reading the information correctly ... I just want to make sure I have my info correct.

Avoid faster burning powders such as Red Dot if you want to avoid possible double charges.

First off, let me say that "chart" is no chart, but a sample listing of powder's weigh published on Lee's Auto Disk chart.

Lee's VMD (volume measure density) listing used to be on their website, but has been mysteriously removed...

Their new website Instruction page links don't seem to be working (it redirects you to the home page). I've attached the Auto Disk PDF below.


The reason why I focused primarily on faster/shotgun powders is because that's what OP stated he would use:

thank you guys. I have a supply of some fast/shotgun powders that I will use eventually, once I get my sea legs. I just want to be extra careful to start out.

Double charges with red dot, being a higher volume powder than the others mentioned, would be easier to see and prevent than the less bulky powders

Your assumption of using bulky powder to prevent double charges is still correct. When I did my Promo/Green Dot testing last year, mid-high range charges nearly filled the case to easily prevent double charges. Even if you were to use start charges with heavy bullets, double charges would be very evident, much more so than denser powders.

 

[joneb]

This maybe of use,
http://www.tacticoolproducts.com/powder.pdf

 

[LiveLife]

jibjab, thanks! Since the chart is by burn rate, I redid a smaller listing:

Less dense / More bulky (gr/cc):
6.840 - Clays
7.077 - Promo / Red Dot
7.446 - IMR 700X
7.455 - American Select
7.515 - Solo 1000
7.924 - Green Dot
8.264 - N320
8.913 - Herco
9.099 - Universal
9.158 - Unique
9.268 - N330
9.381 - N340
9.398 - Bullseye
9.560 - SR7625
10.235 - N350
10.741 - W231
10.799 - HP38
11.247 - Power Pistol
11.561 - Blue Dot
11.799 - Titegroup
11.900 - WSF (typo? chart said 1.190)
11.933 - AA No. 2
12.034 - Zip
12.130 - Longshot
12.346 - Silhouette
14.045 - HS6
16.051 - AA No. 5
More dense / less bulky

 

[1KPerDay]

First off, let me say that "chart" is no chart, but a sample listing of powder's weigh published on Lee's Auto Disk chart.

by "chart" I meant your excellent experience/evaluation of powders you've used. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Trumpetman]

I use quite a bit of Herco for 9mm loads. Since I already had Herco lying around for 12 and 20 gauge shotshells, I though I'd give it a try. I'm glad I did.

Herco fits the criteria for 9mm very well. For a nice, medium practice round, 6.2 grains of Herco will just touch the bottom of most 115 - 125 grain bullets. A double charge would be impossible.

Lee Modern Reloading (2nd edition) lists 6.2 grains of Herco behind a lead 125 grain bullet for 1165 fps @ 28,500 psi. Richard Lee also lists a maximum Herco load for 125 grain jacketed bullets as 6.5 grains for 1180 fps @ 32,700 psi.

I shoot these loads all the time. They are plenty accurate for defense practice at 7 to 10 yards, and they seem to recoil differently than faster powders. It's less "snappy," I would say.

Good Luck!

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks. If I don't start reloading shotshells I might try the herco in the pistol ammo also. I have 4 pounds of it waiting.