Sub-Div Weapons Ban = Legal Y/N?

[inkhead]

I think it's less of a issue of "rights" and more of an issue of contractual obligation. Recently when I was looking at properties in a certain area they wouldn't sell you the house unless you joined the home owners association, and signed a contract. This is why in court when you paint your house purple on your own property they win, because you entered into a legal contract with them.

With today's housing market, you should be able to buy anywhere without being required to sign up for silly associations.

With basic things people feel are human rights, such as the right to security, often a lower court will rule that you have to stick to your contract, vs. the overall right to have your firearms.

And yes, homeowner associations unfortunately can work with the seller, to not let you buy a property for any reason, including not becoming a member.

Just buy property somewhere, where the property ACTUALLY belongs to you, and isn't controlled by a 3rd party.

 

[precisionshootist]

HOAs are a constitutional abomination!

This is the way the world is moving... Developers buying out huge tracts of land and then dictating to people who want to live there, what they can and cannot do.

The developers themselves don’t necessarily want the HOAs. It’s just that the city won’t approve the development without one. Many cities in Texas now have ordinances that do not allow any residential development without a mandatory HOA. So once again it’s big government run amuck that is the problem. The reason behind the city ordinance mandating a home owners association is so they don’t have to spend the tax money that they are collecting on things like mowing of common areas, street lights etc. Basically the HOA is a mechanism of double taxation. You pay taxes to the city for maintenance and the city in turn creates mandatory HOAs that collect more money in dues to take care of the maintenance items the city tax was collected for in the first place. Mandatory HOAs are a big government scam!

 

[ArmedBear]

HOA's can be a libertarian form of small-unit government. Or they can be a big government scam. Depends on how they're set up and how they're run.

Some states (mine, for example) have laws that limit what an HOA can do or say. Other states have few if any restrictions.

However, the question of enforcement still exists. What can they do about it, really?

Also, in general, the agreement involved in purchasing a condo or similar home generally states that the space within your walls is owned by you, whereas you own a share of X% of the common areas like shared structures, the land the condo development is on, etc. If it doesn't, you shouldn't have signed it.

How much would I worry about having guns if the HOA said I couldn't? Zero. Less than zero.

 

[mekender]

they would have no legal say in what legal items were kept within the house... their authority to dictate things ends at your front door

 

[mekender]

they would have no legal say in what legal items were kept within the house... their authority to dictate things ends at your front door

 

[precisionshootist]

they would have no legal say in what legal items were kept within the house... their authority to dictate things ends at your front door

Well I would say their authority to dictate things ends once they step off their own property. That being said when HOAs have foreclosure power as they do in Texas I personally can't see what mechanism would stop them from dictating things in the home.

 

[ArmedBear]

Well, I'm not sure that foreclosure power means they can dictate what you do inside your unit (meaning your housing unit, not your penis, though they can't really dictate that, either).

The fact that they have to follow legal foreclosure procedures, with specified conditions, means they don't have rights to your property unless they meet the requirements to seize it. These requirements usually include your being compensated for net money they get from the foreclosure, over and above what you owe to the HOA.

 

[anygunanywhere]

HOAs can enforce rules that would astound most folks....but here is a rub.

Unless the HOA enforces every rule to the letter every time then they really can not enforce any of them. Consistency is the key. If they let Mr. Jones slide because his Ol' Lady is on the gardening comittee than any first year attorney will reduce the HOA to rubble in court. All variances from restrictions have to be documented and approved according to the bylaws. The HOAs are also subject to open meetings and public records laws. Your HOA should have a watchdog group badgering them if they are of the particularly rabid type.

The one in my subdivision is pretty reasonable but they can't keep people from parking on the street either. They could if they took my advice but they frown on that sort of thing.

Anygun

 

[jad0110]

I don't know about you, but I'd love to see two identical neighborhoods built on either side of the street. The HOAs and their terms/conditions are identical except:

Neighborhood A has a total gun ban in place and advertises it at the entrance.

Neighborhood B REQUIRES every household to own at least one gun and X rounds of ammunition and advertises it at the entrance. Naturally, this would keep out people who cannot legally own one to begin with.

I guess it's pointless anyway, because I think the results (# of break-ins) would be totally predictable .

 

[qwert65]

Some HOAs are pretty powerful when I was looking at houses I saw one that limited the types of fixtures in the bathroom. needless to say I continued my search

 

[cyclist]

I do a little real estate sales on the side, and I don't remember exactly what the rules are, but I think (if I remember right) that if you sign the agreement then you are bound by the agreement. And if the agreement covers the inside of your house then you are still bound by it. They could put into the rules and regs that you are not allowed to cook cabbage soup in your house if they want to, it could be as rediculous as that if taken to the extreme, and any penalties for violating the rules in place should also be spelled out in the contract agreement.

I won't ever knowingly buy a house with a C&R in place, and this is one of the big reasons I won't ever buy into a Condo either. Too many people telling me how to live and what I can or can not do, but who don't want me doing the same towards them.

As to the issue of cities requiring new subdivisions to have a C&R in place, do they also stipulate what is required to be contained within that C&R?

 

[ctdonath]

I imagine a competent lawyer could make a case that if the local government REQUIRES an HOA, then the covenant rules are subject to the same restrictions that local laws are subject to. If the local gov't cannot do something, then they can't get it done by obligating someone else to do them.

 

[budiceman]

In Minnesota you can not even ban them from tenants if they are legal to buy them!

 

[budiceman]

 

[Eightball]

I want that sign.

 

[LeonCarr]

A typical HOA can't even keep unpermitted door to door solicitors out of the neighborhood...how are they gonna enforce anything else?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[qbpc]

In MS no body can make gun laws except the state or the Feds. So cities, counties or anybody else can not have ordances or laws they must follow state laws.
BB

 

[precisionshootist]

A typical HOA can't even keep unpermitted door to door solicitors out of the neighborhood...how are they gonna enforce anything else?

You must not have much experience with HOAs here in DFW. They can't keep solicitors out because its legal and they have no idea who the solicitor is or where they live, they have zero power over door to door marketing. The homeowner on the other hand has signed a contract with these neighborhood tyrants. So it goes like this, if they don't like something about your house, could be something as simple as outdoor lighting they will "warn" you take it down or they will fine you. If you don't comply they send you a fine which you must pay and they keep fining you until you take the offending lighting down and then pay all the costs incurred by the HOA to include whatever the lawyers charge to send you threatening letters. If you still don't comply then the attorney’s for the HOA (which you pay for with your own money through dues) will begin the foreclosure process on your house. All this because some neighborhood ninny doesn’t like your lights and you owe $300 in bogus fines and fees. In the end you lose and will be evicted from your home. Our HOA has foreclosed on several homes already and this is a relatively new community.

 

[XD_fan]

Absolutely not legal. I'm a past president of a HOA. I was the first president of a brand new association. We actually had a board member suggest that during the process of forming association "rules". (I will never live anywhere that has CC&Rs, HOA, etc.) The association's lawyer about fell down laughing when he heard about this. I think the particular comment he made to the board member who suggested this was, "Sure thing comrade, just as soon as you and your fascist buddies change the constitution."

 

[Rio Laxas]

I would say it is semi-legal, but largely unenforceable, at least here in Texas. It is legal in the sense that anyone can place a restrictive covenant on a tract of land they own before they sell, but it would be a hard case to make that it doesn't violate the 2nd Amendment.

I work under a land surveyor in Houston. I have to deal with restrictive covenants all of the time. They are not enforced by having someone charged with a crime, but rather by putting a lien on your house. They could conceivably take your house away for possession of a firearm. I don't think this is something the homeowners association could just simply pass. This would have to be a covenant that would run with the land and that you were aware of when you bought the land.

Having said all of that, I have not ever seen a tract of land that had an anti-firearms clause in the restrictive covenants. I have surveyed a neighborhood that prohibited the carrying of weapons in common reserves. I think they were afraid of people hunting the wooded areas. Now this was not a .30-06 (no trespass by license holder) sign, which is required in Texas to make it a crime. It held no criminal legal weight, but if you lived there it could mean trouble for your property. As the person surveying the land, it held no weight at all. They had no recourse to my property and they had not properly notified me by means of .30-06 sign, which they would have trouble applying to any open area.

One thing to consider, however, would be constitutional grounds for invalidating the covenant. I have seen many plats from the 1800s and early 1900s that restricted tracts of land to "members of the white race" except that "Negroes may be housed in servants quarters", which were confined to the back portions of the lots. These covenants are invalidated by federal law and this always shows up in the title commitment as a standard clause. Now I personally believe the 2nd Amendment would invalidate any anti-firearms clause, but this has not been court tested. There is no legal consensus that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right at this point, though there should be and it is ridiculous that there is not. Perhaps Heller will change this.

 

[Hypnogator]

2d Amendment rights ARE civil rights.

It would be no more legal for a subdivision to ban weapons than to ban blacks/hispanics/other "undesirables."

 

[Dravur]

This is why...

I bought a 1930's home, and sank some cash into it fixing it up. I could paint it pink and green stripes with giant purple polka dots if I like. I would never buy a house in a new subdivision with an HOA. I hate them. I have a huge yard, an orchard in the back and enough room to set up an archery range with a 20/40/50 yard range.

My house has everything I want and is a fantastic place and I like the neighborhood. People living their lives and leaving each other alone.

My kind of place.

 

[Coronach]

It would be perfectly legal, unless there are specific restrictions upon HOAs to prevent it. "Enforcible", "practical" and "good for business" are completely different concepts, however.

For those of you who do not know, this is how HOAs generally work. There are exceptions, but this is the general gist:

You buy a house in a development with a HOA. As part of the deed/title, there is a covenant. It says, to wit: I, the owner, agree to abide by the rules, present and future, of the HOA, to pay my dues and to pay any fines levied against me by the HOA, and if I fail to do this, a lein may be placed against my house that must be paid off before I sell or transfer the house to an heir.

This covenant is 100% legally binding. There are other ways of doing this (some with more and some with less teeth), but this is the most common one around here.

Now, what this means is that you have signed yourself up for obedience to whatever good stuff and whatever bad stuff the HOA comes up with. Usually this is lawn care stuff, external appearance stuff, restrictions on parking, etc. Often, the HOAs never even levy the fines that they threaten, because the HOA is run by people in the neighborhood, and no one wants to really torque off the people living next door. However, there have been HOAs that have regulated the flying of the flag, the placement of signs, interior colors of houses, and all sorts of stupid things. And just becuase the HOA is laid back when you buy the house does not mean that the Lawn Care Nazis won't win the next election.

What happens is the HOA finds a violator (they can see a violation, or someone dimes you out), and they levy a fine. You then tell them to pound sand. This goes on for months, or years. Then you try to sell your house, and discover that you have several thousand dollars worth of accumulated fines and penalties placed in a lien upon your property.

You now have to pay the lein, retain the services of a lawyer and go to court or, usually, both (since the covenant is pretty straight forward and the plaintiff usually doesn't have much of a leg to stand on).

The HOA can get away with the nonsense because it is a civil penalty, and it is something to which you, yourself, opened yourself up. The facts that the HOA was sane when you joined, or you didn't really understand the covenant, or your realtor or the slick talking developer didn't explain it to you don't really matter. You agreed to it, you signed your liberty away.

I know how bad things can be with HOAs because I work as a cop, and in my one of my old assignments (out of the Hood and up in God's Country where people have jobs and pay taxes) one of the HOAs had just been taken over by the Lawn Care Nazis and I got several calls a week from the little old biddy in charge, demanding that I go and tell someone to cut their lawn, take down a fence, remove a legally parked car, etc etc etc. I, of course, did no such thing, but I did make sure that the scofflaw in question was aware that the HOA was about to unleash the rapid weasels of lawyerdom upon them.

Most of the homeoners were like "oh, no, they can't do that. This is my house. What can they do? No, I don't know anything about a covenant. I'm pretty sure they can't do anything." OK. Well, I just wanted to let you know.

I forget how big the one lein was, but I recall it being in "nice used car" territory, and the homeowner was extraordinarily POed. Hey, I warned him, at least twice.

I firmly agree that HOAs can be good or bad, but I will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever live where one exists with an essentially blank check to do whatever they want, which is the way most are set up around here. You want to be able to limit the height of my grass or color of my outbuildings? We can talk. You want cart blanche to promulgate whatever rules and regs you want, with a covenant on my deed? No. Period. Full stop. Nein. Nyet. Non. No.

Mike

 

[LeonCarr]

As far as door to door solicitors go and the legality of such, most jurisdictions require that you have a permit to solicit door to door, issued by that jurisdiction. if somebody is in my neighborhood going door to door, does not have a permit and gets caught by the police, the police can issue a crimiminal trespass warning, issue them a citation for violation of a city ordinance, or arrest them for violation of a city ordinance.

When one of them comes to my door to sell me something, the first thing I do is put my Glock 26 in my pocket and look out the peephole. If I feel like answering, I let them go through their entire schpeel about winning an ipod if they sell enough cookie dough or raising money to go on a school trip to Bangladesh by selling magazines. I then ask to see their solicitation permit. 9 times out of 10, they look towards the street to their "handler", usually a guy/girl standing on the sidewalk talking on a cell phone to the other 30 swindlers canvasing your neighborhood, and ask him or her what to do. That usually gets them off of your porch and down the street to the next mark/victim.

HOAs want to tell you to put your garbage cans inside your garage, but won't do a thing about unpermitted door to door solicitors who might be casing your house for a burglary or home invasion.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[ctdonath]

won't do a thing about unpermitted door to door solicitors who might be casing your house for a burglary or home invasion.

As an HOA board member, I'd like to know what you suggest we do about it.