Submachine guns are underrated

[lbmii]

Why M4 when you can M3!

You all know you want one. Now just admit it.

 

[CleverNickname]

Why M4 when you can M3!
You all know you want one. Now just admit it.

I had an opportunity to shoot one this summer, and it was the most boring machine gun I've ever shot. The cyclic rate was waaaay too slow. So slow that after the first shot you wonder for a split second if you accidentally put the gun in semi, then remember the M3 is full-auto only and it really is that slow.

 

[Medusa]

All right, Jeff, maybe the whole issue comes down to personal liking? I do have to admit that the discussion 5.7 vs 5.56 had a false start, the 5.7 is still a pistol round while 5.56 is not. AND consider significantly different gun-climate of Europe, most subguns were 9mm ones, smallest rifles were M4, G3 with collapsed stock and such. Yes you have a lot more of variety "over there", here we do not. Sorry.

EDIT: Also, as my boy gets 1yo today I have quite a little time to put up any comprehensive argument. Besides as I have not haven't have to shoot anybody I cannot argue on fragmentation issue, but I go and find out whether the 5.7 round fragments too. I do know that SS192 is so called soft-tip round "to reduce backstop damage", it does look a bit like hollowpoint and maybe fragments too? I personally do have a too little ammo (50+50 of SS190 and SS192) to test (another 50 shot for familirization), so have to go higher.

Anyway, FN Herstal notes:

The SS190 ammunition will incapacitate the enemy in close range combat.

The SS190 provides a virtually flat trajectory up to 200 meters, does not deform or fragment on impact, and the projectile’s tumbling action ensures a very high probability of incapacitation.

Underline is mine. No mention what the SS192 does.

And if to come to P90 itself as a gun, then

P90® submachine gun and SS190 round team up to defeat the enemy in all close combat situations in urban areas, jungle conditions, night missions and any self defense action.

The simple design of the mechanism, the unique feed mechanism, and the materials used to manufacture the P90® make it highly reliable, whatever the conditions.
The P90® has been designed to fire more than 20,000 rounds.
- Little to no lubrication is required
- Breech area protected from extreme environments
....
- The recoil impulse is only 1/3 of the 5.56 mm ball and 2/3 of the 9 mm ball round.
This significantly increases the controllability of the weapon

Yeah, it seems like a personal liking - I have little knowledge and experience on M16 family beside the theoretical one. Don't beat me on that, Jeff, ok?

 

[Fletchette]

Angled how? The Sten has a magazine that protrudes to the left -- and it was often remarked how inconvenient that was.

and...

Fletchette, most pistol ammo used in subguns (e.g. 9mm., .45 ACP, etc.) is straight-walled, or nearly so. This means that magazines for that round have to be straight, to ensure reliable feeding. Bottle-nose rounds such as 7.62x39, 5.56x45, etc. naturally "curve" when stacked against spring tension, which is why their magazines curve in accordance with bullet geometry and capacity. And, since the subgun magazines were straight anyway, one couldn't really have them offset at anything other than a 90º angle to the gun, otherwise the rounds wouldn't feed properly without some intricate mechanical re-alignment during the feeding cycle to line them up with the breech.

...and

Seriously; There are two good reasons besides the fact that most pistol-caliber rounds feed better from a vertical magazine:


-Economics. It is much cheaper to produce them that way.

-Ergonomics. Small curved magazines are harder to insert, particularly when not inserted into the grip. The MP5 and PPSh have straight sections at the top where they are inserted. The 'hand meets hand' ergonomic first used in Vaclav Holek's Cz/Vz subguns is so advantageous that Uziel Gal, Gordon Ingram, and many others adopted it for their designs.

Reliability is also a factor. extended mags for pistols (Hi-Power, Beretta 92, S&W 59 series, 1911) are prone to causing malfuntions, unless well designed, often redesigned for more rounds.

I guess I didn't phrase my question clearly. I meant "angled" as in the magazine's long axis is not perpendicular to the bore axis. For example, a Browning Hi Power pistol has a magazine angled at 17.5 degrees off of perpendicular from the bore axis, so that it fits nicely into the grip. An Uzi has a straight magazine at 90 degrees, making the grip also 90 degrees, and awkward.

One can purchase extended Glock magazines (straight, but 22 degrees off of perpendicular) that stick well below the bottom of the grip. Are these magazines not reliable? Why can't a sub-gun have a nicely angled grip to aid pointability?

 

[Medusa]

MP-5A5

MP-5A/10

UMP-45

All the magazines are either curved or canted.

And - P90, who cares that the mag is straight?

 

[Zach S]

I could compare the blast of the Mini 14 and a 18" shotgun at an indoor range with concrete walls (some indoors have sound reduction walls). I preferred the shotgun by far.

Having fired BOTH an AR15 (16") and a mossberg 590 (20") indoors without hearing protection, I'd be more likely to use the AR15. My hearing recovers quicker, I get the dial tone of course, but I can hear other things around me as well. With my mossberg, all I hear is a dialtone.

FWIW, at the range, where I have doubled hearing protection, and I'm surrounded by conctrete and cinderblocks, my mossberg doesnt bother me as much as the AR does.

I dont know why my AR15 didnt bother me as much as my shotgun without hearing protection, yet bothered me more when I did have proper hearing protection, but that's how it works out for me.

Note: I don't make a habit of shooting without hearing protection, wether it be at an indoor or or outdoor range. As a matter of fact, my hearing is better than average, according to the dude who did the audiogram I had to do earlier this week (I have a noisy job).

 

[rudolf]

Having fired BOTH an AR15 (16") and a mossberg 590 (20") indoors without hearing protection, I'd be more likely to use the AR15. My hearing recovers quicker, I get the dial tone of course, but I can hear other things around me as well. With my mossberg, all I hear is a dialtone.

FWIW, at the range, where I have doubled hearing protection, and I'm surrounded by conctrete and cinderblocks, my mossberg doesnt bother me as much as the AR does.

Thanks for the comparison. I never had the chance to fire those inside an occupied room.

 

[TechBrute]

How am I supposed to consider someone credible when they infer that only SWAT need lights on their guns and a lot of what they say seems to be parroting internet rumor?

 

[ctchapman]

I think subguns are way overrated. They're just big pistols. They are the least versatile long arms. Good only in CQB, OK for short engagements 100yds or less outside of CQB scenarios, but lacking any real stopping power. At least handguns can be concealed and carried 24/7.

Carbines and shotguns have great power and work well in CQB. A shotgun w/ slugs is effective out to the max eff. range of a SMG. A carbine considerably more. Downside is overall length...but we're already talking about longarms. As far as overpenetration concerns, 5.56 ammo such as Hornady TAP or similar varmit type load penetrates less than 9mm and hits a lot harder. I haven't brought up cost and availability of subguns 'cause that doesn't relate directly to their effectiveness. I could have had an MP5 in Iraq...I kept my AK.

I carried a mp5 in Irag, which side were you on ??

 

[Artful]

and...
I guess I didn't phrase my question clearly. I meant "angled" as in the magazine's long axis is not perpendicular to the bore axis. For example, a Browning Hi Power pistol has a magazine angled at 17.5 degrees off of perpendicular from the bore axis, so that it fits nicely into the grip. An Uzi has a straight magazine at 90 degrees, making the grip also 90 degrees, and awkward.

One can purchase extended Glock magazines (straight, but 22 degrees off of perpendicular) that stick well below the bottom of the grip. Are these magazines not reliable? Why can't a sub-gun have a nicely angled grip to aid pointability?

You could design a gun that way but some of designs were around a pre-existing magazine, the UZI , Colt carbine use double feed developed for Berretta which is straight feed. STEN was from MP18/Lanchaster design - Sterling was designed to use it's own and STEN due to economic's. From a designer's point of view it's usually easier to use existing gun magazines with only slight modifications to work with your design.

As far as using weapons for defense I have Shotty by the bed, and a Pistol by the bed - If I have a need to shoot farther out into the park behind my place I'll use an AR or Bolt gun - the UZI is for use with MK9 for preserving quiet times.

 

[ctdonath]

Does this discussion indicate Jeff Cooper's "Thumper" idea is firmly obsolete?

 

[mack7.62]

See!


And I missed another thing: How many magazines of SMG ammo can you carry for one standard assualt rifle magazine? My guess is 3. So you can 30 rounds of, let's say, .308. Well, let's throw the swing your way a little; 5.56x45. While you carry 30 of those, I can carry 90 of mine.

What about that shotgun? Oh yeah, those. What kind of weapon would you like to carry in a, say, rather tight factory. An assualt rifle? Humm, might be a little tight for that. A pistol? Well, nice for the closer zombies. (oops ) A shotgun...Similar, but not quite. How are you going to shoot across the factory from a good position accurately with a shottie?

Remember, the Army did some homework and found most engagments were under 200 yards. Right? When you're running around, how are you going to see a 1 MOA figure across the field anyway?

Let's not dismiss that you can still carry more SMG ammo than a shotgun. We assume that you don't fire full auto all the time. SMG maggies are smaller and lighter, so you can carry more of them than an assualt rifle. Besides, what difference is a rifle going to make in a half-gutted, half-collapsed building? You might have to carry your rifle hip style, but the SMG might be small enough to work your shoulder a little.

Excuse me, loaded Colt 9mm 32 rd mags weigh considerably more than 30 rd 5.56 mags do. Steel vs alum and bullet weight make the difference, you have to remember that the 9mm bullets weight twice as much or more than 5.56.

Mack

 

[rudolf]

How am I supposed to consider someone credible when they infer that only SWAT need lights on their guns and a lot of what they say seems to be parroting internet rumor?

Just in case you're talking about me, I have no credits, just my opinion and what I tried out myself. But I read other folks posts, do you?

I don't need a light on a gun. ID'ng goes many ways. If the shadow is too small, it's probably a kid. If you tell it to freeze and it yells at you, it's probably your wife. I might just turn on the room light for a moment. Ask who's there. Or use the 'normal' flashlight. But I'm not SWAT. They need a light on their gun for sure.

I nerver said "that only SWAT need lights on their guns", right?

 

[Fletchette]

You could design a gun that way but some of designs were around a pre-existing magazine, the UZI , Colt carbine use double feed developed for Berretta which is straight feed. STEN was from MP18/Lanchaster design - Sterling was designed to use it's own and STEN due to economic's. From a designer's point of view it's usually easier to use existing gun magazines with only slight modifications to work with your design.

As far as using weapons for defense I have Shotty by the bed, and a Pistol by the bed - If I have a need to shoot farther out into the park behind my place I'll use an AR or Bolt gun - the UZI is for use with MK9 for preserving quiet times.

Aha! The straight magazines are all double feed? That answers it! Thanks!


As for the sub-gun over/under rating; I would have to agree that the smaller versions of assault rifles like the M4 are squeezing the niche that subguns used to fill between rifles and pistols. That said, there are several varieties that I wouldn't mind owning.

There are still a few scenarios that may exist that would favor semi-auto pistol-caliber carbines, as they can share ammo with a pistol you may already be carrying, but a full-auto subgun eats too much ammo for these rolls.

 

[strambo]

I carried a mp5 in Irag, which side were you on ??

Why the side fighting the infidel invaders in the name of Allah, of course. -heh

I was a PSD team leader, we had a couple MP-5s for drivers. I'd just rather have a reliable, hard hitting AK for a combat zone VS a big pistol. I also prefered my AK to a semi-auto Bushmaster which would have been my other option.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

The smg has never been a very useful weapon (certain exceptions such as the Red Army during the latter stages of WWII non withstanding) but have always been a niche weapon.
Their are issues with the smg- they are generally heavy (often as heavy or heavier then contemporary rifles); the ammunition is heavier per round then many rifle rounds; most have terrible ergonomics; and finally, they are large pistols.
The US military has never really cared for smg's except for very limited roles- as a TE weapon on tanks for exampele.
While many countries issued smg's to officers, communicators, crew served weapons teams etc to provide for a limited self defense capability, the US replaced most smg's with the US Carbine Cal .30 M1 (or M2).
As an example, in 1998 the Marine Corps had approximately 600 smg's in the entire organization. The Marine Corps replaced the MP5's in the Force Reconnaissance community with the M4A1 carbine for a variety of reasons ranging from poor supportability, poor ergonomics and lack of range/ ballistic efficiency in the environment.
I have carried both the M3A1 and MP5 as well as two other lesser types. They were a lot of fun, but not real useful and i would not want to do it again. A unit of fire for the M3A1- 6 magazines, weighs a lot...
I have been inside when real people where trading shots with various weapons, including 5.56x45mm. I did not see any "flash bang"type effects emmenating from the muzzle, and auditory exclusion was always something present when i was excited so the noise thing was an issue, but maybe not as big as some may think.
There are times when a smg may be a useful gun under some very certain circumstances, but i would be hard pressed to think of many where an M4 (or maybe other guns) wouldn't be better.
Jeff White speaks from a broad knowledge base and what he says makes sense- maybe not internet sense, but real sense.
Just my opinions, based on my frame of reference...

 

[jaysouth]

Mr. Rogers

Thank you for your post. I can't imagine that anyone could add anything useful after it.

Once upon a time I traded a carton of menthol cigarettes(cost me 1.95 at the PX) for an M-3 and two mags.

After playing and profiling for a couple of weeks, I realized that I got the short end of that trade. I have also had experience with Carl Gustavs and the U.S. licensed knockoff, Smith and Wesson Model 76. Past a couple of arm's length, neither are lethal weapons.

Thanks again. We always look forward to your hardearned real-world insights.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Mr Rogers was my Dad- please call me Pat.
Thanks for the kind words. Not sure that there aren't many who could speak knowledgeably about the subject.
I too had the opportunity to work the M45 as well as the M76, and i was equally unimpressed.
I wouldn't turn any down just for the fun factor, but their are better weapons available.

 

[Medusa]

Well, the special forces in Vietnam did say kind words about the Carl Gustav. Any tool sucks outside it's niché.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

SOG used M45's for a short period during their start up as they needed a non US weapon that could be deniable for their unique operations. These were completely replaced with the XM177 series as they became available (and my discussions with those men was that they loved the "CAR15").
Most of the books written by those Warriors do not have good things to say about a 9x19mm gun in that type of work.
Having said that, some men like fat chicks (and i imagine some women like fat men) so i'm sure that someone, somplace thought have a smg would be cool.


Until maybe the first time you got involved in a firefight with people armed with rifles.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Having said that, some men like fat chicks (and i imagine some women like fat men) so i'm sure that someone, somplace thought have a smg would be cool.

Fat chicks are lilke mopeds -- fun, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you riding one.

 

[loose cannon]

just my opinion not arcane ninja knowledge.

i have to say when it comes to coolness factor the p90 has it in spades,but i dont trust the stopping power of the 5.7x28 basicly a slightly hotroded 22mag.

if i had a selectfire gun of choice itd be a bulgarian arsenal "krink"in 7.62x39.
compact,fires a decent diameter/weight of bullet,and if i cant hav a"can"it wont make my ears bleed like the 223 out of 14".

but im just a hillbilly who knows alittle about guns has a few and hope he never has to fire a angry shot with them.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

Loose Cannon- can you provide medical documentation that firing an M4 made your ears bleed?

 

[jaysouth]

I got my Swedish K (Carl Gustav) from a weapons NCO at an A team camp outside An Khe. He said he stole it from a "CIA Puke" and was glad to get something useful for it ( I gave him a generator that I stole from the 4th Infantry Div. and a bottle of Imperial blended whisky) because it was the "worst piece of s*it" he ever held.

At 25 meters, upright wooden ammo crates were safe from short bursts.

I had it chrome plated at a bumper shop in Qui Nhon and traded it to the manager of an Air Force NCO club at Phu Cat AFB for a pallet of coke. I can only imagine some of the war stories that evolved from that.

 

[Pat_Rogers]

That is an excellent story!
It is always nice to hear that people get what they need- or want...