Substituting Winchester Large Pistol (WLP) for CCI Large Pistol (CCI 300)

[rbethune]

I shoot a lot of light 45 ACP loads using 4.7 grains of Titegroup with 200 grain Rainier plated round nose bullets and CCI 300 primers, with a wide variety of brass. This is my "soft" load. My "heavy" load is 5.3 grains.

I'm going to run out of CCI 300's soon. I have several hundred Winchester WLP's that I've used for 44 Mag loads, but I've never tried them with 45 ACP.

Any downside to trying the substitution at the 4.7 grain level?

 

[Sunray]

If you change any one component, you should work up the load again. Mind you, in a .45, the primer doesn't make much difference.

 

[Shoney]

Although Sunray is correct in his approach, since the powder charge is quite low, I would substitute them without hesitation.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Use the WLP with the powder charges as you have with the CCI-300. None of your powder charges are in the extreme range and no reduction is necessary...The WLP primers will give you around 25 fps increase...

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Since Winchester makes only 1 LPP and it's suitable for both standard and Magnum use it's a little hotter than the CCI-300 primer. BUT, like said above, your charge is a light one so I highly doubt substituting the Win primer for the CCI primer will be an issue.

 

[Walkalong]

Yep. I swap between those two primers in my light to medium plus .45 loads without issues.

 

[rcmodel]

+1

Your 4.7 grain load is already less then the recommended 4.8 starting load, and it's hard to work up a load again from that!

Just use them.

rc

 

[Slamfire]

I would not worry about it. I don't have a lot of primer comparison data, still from what I have, sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes not.

With the following load, I would not say there is a real difference.



Kimber Custom Classic



200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases CCI300
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"
11-Sep-05 T = 88 °F

Ave Vel = 738.9
Std Dev = 10.34
ES 37.98
High 755.8
Low 717.8
N = 32


200 LSWC 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WLP
OAL 1.250" taper crimp 0.469"
21-Jun-06T = 97 °F


Ave Vel = 748.2
Std Dev = 10.86
High 763.2
Low 721.7
N = 22

 

[alfack]

I think if it made a difference worth noting, it would be listed with all of the other load data in the manual. Show me a reloading manual where it specifies exactly which powder, col, bullet etc., then also calls out primers by brand. You will normally have variations of 20 fps in rounds that you thought you made exactly identical. With all of the lawyers around these days, you can bet your ass that the max published loads will include enough of a safety margin for a primer that may be 20 fps faster.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Lyman load manuals...Sierra load manuals...Just for starters.

Most manuals will list the primer used because there is a small difference in primers. But it really doesn't matter until you start loading powder charges from 5% to maximum. And to insure that you use either standard or magnum primers to get some where near their results. Or......................

I load for a S&W mod 19 Combat Magnum with 2 1/2" barrel that when using W-231 (maximum is 8.1 grains under a 140 grain SJHP) I start getting sticky cases at 7.8 using WSPM, but have no sticky cases using CCI-550. The load that I use for this revolver is 7.7 grains of W231 and CCI-550 at 1100 fps +/- a few. Accurate and safe for this particular handgun...

That again references the need to work up your loads carefully.

 

[alfack]

Really, they list more than one primer by name, like they list more than one powder?

I still contend that even if you are at the maximum published loads, the primer will not make a bit of difference on whether you are over-pressure or not.

Might you see a very slight increase or decrease in fps? Maybe, but I doubt you could reliably measure that difference and attribute it to the primer alone. Will it cause your gun to blow up? No way.

 

[Shoney]

Primers Don't Make a Difference????????????????????????

Handloader Magazine published an article by A-Square. Here is a short summary of the test of primers in the Remington 7mm Mag.

160 grain Sierra boat-tail, 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H-4831 and Winchester cases.


Winchester WLRM (magnum)___ 3045 fps, 67,600 psi

Winchester WLR (standard) ____ 3024 fps, 64,400 psi

Federal 215 (magnum)________ 3036 fps, 61,400 psi

CCI 250 (magnum)___________ 3039 fps, 61,500 psi

Remington 9½ M (magnum)____ 3041 fps, 59,300 psi

CCI 200 (standard)___________ 3011 fps, 54,800 psi

The SAAMI max pressure for the 7Mag is 64,000psi.

 

[alfack]

Of the 4 (proper) magnum primer loads you listed, there is less than a 10 fps spread.

Did the Winchester primers cause the gun to blow up, or do you think SAAMI has some safety margin built in? Did they just fire one round to get those fps numbers, or was that an average of 30 shots?

I'm sorry, but I am not seeing a difference worth worrying about.

 

[Walkalong]

There is a huge difference in the light .45 load the OP asked about and that 60,000 + PSI rifle load.........

 

[Shoney]

In post #3 above, my statements agree that there will be little difference in substitution of the primers in the given situation.

My purpose in post #12 above was to answer aflack's blanket statement

I still contend that even if you are at the maximum published loads, the primer will not make a bit of difference on whether you are over-pressure or not.

The use of the rifle primer data is all I have to illustrate the point. I have experienced substitutions of primers in pistols, using identical loads, where it made big differences in accuracy. The majority of shooters cannot shoot well enough to tell, however.

I would wager that if you were shooting a max load in a pistol such as a FEG or a pistol of similar low quality, and substituted a hotter primer, you may see damage to the weapon after several shots. Especially if your PM throws +/-0.4 grains, as some report theirs do.

Primers do make a difference!

 

[rbethune]

Thanks, everybody! I'm now down to only 200 CCI 300's left, so I guess I'll be seeing the results of switching to the WLP's pretty soon!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks, everybody! I'm now down to only 200 CCI 300's left, so I guess I'll be seeing the results of switching to the WLP's pretty soon!

Seriously, like already said multiple times, with the charge you are using you won't notice any different at all.

I use Winchester LPP for my .45 Auto ammo with a charge of 5.5gr W231 under a 230gr bullet. I like Winchester primers for handgun applications.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Alfack...Not withstanding the fps. Did you notice the pressures?

 

[alfack]

I did notice the pressures but who, besides SAAMI, measures pressures? The only things I go by are velocity and obvious signs of pressure on the primer itself or the case. For example, if my load is returning a faster fps than the published max load, I will assume that the pressures are too high and bump it down.

It's obvious that there are diminishing returns for pressure, by looking at the numbers. i.e. 4000 PSI = only 10 fps.

Also, I swear I can take any two factory loads or very carefully constructed reloads, shoot them consecutively over a chrony and get more than 10 fps variation. Does that mean the pressure in one of them is 4000 PSI greater too?

 

[The Bushmaster]

My oldest son lives in Arlington. He's planning on reloading for a .300 Win Mag. I'll probably not recommend you to help him...No offence intended, mind you. Just want him around longer then me...

 

[alfack]

Ha. None taken. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of something that goes against my knowledge. The gun shop I usually frequent is just north of Arlington a ways. They usually have primers in stock, FYI.

 

[Slamfire]

Primers Don't Make a Difference????????????????????????

Handloader Magazine published an article by A-Square. Here is a short summary of the test of primers in the Remington 7mm Mag.

160 grain Sierra boat-tail, 66.0 grains of Hodgdon H-4831 and Winchester cases.


Winchester WLRM (magnum)___ 3045 fps, 67,600 psi

Winchester WLR (standard) ____ 3024 fps, 64,400 psi

Federal 215 (magnum)________ 3036 fps, 61,400 psi

CCI 250 (magnum)___________ 3039 fps, 61,500 psi

Remington 9½ M (magnum)____ 3041 fps, 59,300 psi

CCI 200 (standard)___________ 3011 fps, 54,800 psi

The SAAMI max pressure for the 7Mag is 64,000psi.

When you are dealing with maximum loads, everything makes a difference.

What I don't see with this data, and never had, are the extreme pressure spreads, and the standard deviations. Averages don't provide the full story. Averages by themselves can be very misleading.

Another thing. You never see data on the lot to lot varience on primers. (Nor incidentally on powder). Primers are made from chemical compounds, each batch is entirely different from the last, and if the data were available, I am confident you could reshuffle the pressure and velocity data above if different primer lots were used.

I only use maximum loads at 600 and 1000 yards. Through experience I have found primer changes, powder lot changes, and case changes, will create overpressure ammo if you are using maximum loads.

For the light loads presented by the original OP, he would have to use the special Lowrance Livermore Thermonuclear Primer to get into trouble.