Such a thing as a small primer 45 ACP?

[mpthole]

I was doing some loading tonight of .45 ACP and came across a couple of cases that didn't want to take a primer. When I got around to measuring the primer pocket, it was ~.175 in diameter and its headstamp read, "WIN NT...45 AUTO". Never seen these before - must've picked it up at the range one day... I measured some of my normal .45 brass and all of the primer pockets were right around ~.211 in diameter.

 

[P95Carry]

All ''usual'' .45acp brass is for large pistol - but I also came across some small a long time ago. No idea what the headstamp was. Not seen any in a very long time.

 

[stans]

Winchester Non-Toxic ammo has small primers. As far as I know, this is the only small primered 45 ACP available. Reloaders need to watch out for these cases.

 

[Sheldon]

The NT cases are from the "non-toxic" line of ammo made by Federal that uses a safer non mercuric primer. I don't know if a small pistol primer is the same size and if it was whether it is a good idea to reload them or not.

 

[road.warrior]

stans wrote: "Reloaders need to watch out for these cases."

Other than being a small primer, what do we need to watch out for?
I have some, but haven't gotten to them yet....

Are they a propritery primer size?

Along the same lines, I have some 9mm cases that are stamped
"FEDERAL NT" Are these simillar?

 

[mpthole]

Thanks everyone! I'm glad I never try to force a primer when loading. I'll have to be as vigilant as always now that I know I've got some of these mixed in.

 

[Jim Watson]

Winchester NT .45 ACP will take a standard small pistol primer and shoot just fine, about 40 fps slower than the same load in a large primer case.

Winchester will tell you not to reload them, of course.

What you have to watch out for now is .45 GAP. Small primer, shorter case. Do NOT mix those in with the NT ACPs.

By the way, Sheldon, nobody has used mercuric primers to amount to anything for about 80 years. It is the lead that the NT gets out.

 

[alex-v.]

What you have to watch out for now is .45 GAP.

So far I have been lucky and not come across any in sorting any of the range brass I have collected. Some of the other guys have gotten a few but they say that the case is noticable and easy to pick out.

But, the 45 ACP cases with the NT headstamp do add a bit of extra work to the sorting process.

 

[Jim Watson]

I am now color coding my .45 ACP reloads with unplated Winchester LP primers. All the NT and GAP I have seen had nickel plated small primers. So when I see the gleam of a nickel primer in the fired brass, I look twice to see if it is a range pickup ACP or a small diameter mutant.

 

[HKGuns]

I just picked up a few of these at the range today. Federal NT on the base.

I wish folks would boycott these rounds and force the MFG's to use standard Large Pistol primers.

 

[Kamicosmos]

I wish folks would boycott these rounds and force the MFG's to use standard Large Pistol primers.

Why? There are some ranges that can't have airborne lead in use per the EPA. So, this is a good work around. Now, why those primers can't be of the normal size, I don't know.


Anyway, I have been seeing lots of this NT stuff in range pickup brass. I think my range sells it. I believe I have also seen 40 S&W NT, but if it takes small primers, I probably never noticed, since I load 40 on the progressive.

 

[HKGuns]

Why? There are some ranges that can't have airborne lead in use per the EPA. So, this is a good work around. Now, why those primers can't be of the normal size, I don't know.

So people don't mess up their reloaders trying to force a large primer into brass that otherwise looks like a regular .45.

They can certainly build NT .45 cases with large pistol primers.

 

[The Bushmaster]

And Small Pistol Magnum Primers wouldn't work in the small primer pockets? Just curious. Other then the Winchester NT and the Federal NT cases with the over sized flash holes I haven't seen any of the small primer pocketed .45 ACP's

 

[Jim Watson]

I shot and chronographed four different loads in regular ACP brass with large pistol primer, in NT brass with small pistol primer, and in NT brass with small pistol magnum primer.
The SP primer gave 20-50 fps lower velocity than the LP with same powder charge and bullet.
The SP Magnum primer made up part or all of the velocity loss, or even increased velocity over LP in one case, HS6 & 185gr JHP.

[I have done some primer comparisons in 9mm and a small pistol magnum gives higher velocity than a small rifle standard.]

Shoudek,

They DID make large pistol NT ammo for a while, it is the brass with extra large flashhole. Winchester says that is ok to reload, and I don't even sort that out.

But they changed to small, either due to technical considerations - I have seen two or three explanations, but none from Winchester - or maybe they are trying to make things hard on handloaders so we will give up and buy more factory loads.

 

[The Bushmaster]

I doubt that the amunition manufactures really believe that we will stop reloading. By the way. The manufacturers make a booming business from reloaders. I doubt they will shoot themselves in the foot. It's probably more to do with economics and the ecofreaks then anything else.

 

[HKGuns]

They DID make large pistol NT ammo for a while, it is the brass with extra large flashhole. Winchester says that is ok to reload, and I don't even sort that out.

It just seems silly to me, especially since they used to produce it with LP primers. I scrounged 8-10 good casings and while sorting them I saw the small primer pocket and the little line on the outside of the case. The little perforated line on the brass I had is a pretty good tip off to the small primer pocket.

It just cheezes me off because I put a lot of effort into brass scrounging at the range. I don't like it when I pick up stuff I won't/can't use!

 

[BluesBear]

We had a nice discussion about this about three weeks ago in this thread.

 

[flsts]

45 gap

I recently purchase some 45 acp brass at a gun show. I started reloading two nights ago a one felt smaller. Sure enough, it was a 45 GAP . I noticed early and pulled six out of 500 out. One did sneak by and when I tried priming, I felt resistance. Knowing what happened and never wanting to force it, I stopped. I read a thread on another forum some time ago were a gentlemen set his primer off and the whole tube in his dillon. PLEASE BECAREFUL AND SEPERATE THESE.....AND WEAR YOUR SAFETY GLASSES.
good shooting.

 

[delta53]

NT

I came into a couple thousand of these and loaded them up with 8.4 Hs-6 with small magnum primers and they shot fine i guess you could use standard primers but i thougth that i could make up for size with a hotter primer I was lucky the entire bunch were all NTcases so i did not have to sort but in the past i ran into a couple before i knew what they were and snapped a couple of large primers trying to reprime them with standard primers(keeps you on your toes)

 

[Ross]

Jim Watson,
Perhaps you can refresh me on the old FA military .45 brass we struggled with that had the off-sized primer. It was a headache, as no correct primers seemed available.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't know much about them, they were pretty much out of the pool of brass by the time I started reloading in 1970. From what I have read, Frankford Arsenal produced .45 ACP cases with .204" primer pockets and made the primers for them. The purpose was to prevent loading pistol ammunition with standard .210" rifle primers and getting misfires or, worse, loading .30-06 with pistol primers and getting pierced or blown primers that could put a gun or soldier out of action. For a while the correct primers could be bought from surplus stocks through the NRA. After they dried up, the brass was nearly useless although I have read of old time reloaders with more time than money reaming the pockets to take standard LP primers.