'SuperDell" CCW Trial Started Today - Utah

[Car Knocker]

Dell Schanze's Trial Gets Underway
May 10th, 2006 @ 12:00pm
WEST JORDAN, Utah (AP/KSL) -- The trial for the former owner of Totally Awesome Computers got underway this morning.

This morning before Schanze went into court, he asked the public to pray to justice in his case, insisting that he is innocent of the charge presented against him.

Dell Schanze, Former Owner of Totally Awesome Computers: "Pray for justice to be done, cause the truth is on my side. God cannot be used to skew the truth. Also, pray for a state that would issue you a concealed carry permit, but then arrest you the first time you use it to defend yourself."

The trial began with Dell Schanze pleading guilty to a reduced charge. Prosecutors reduced his reckless driving charge to speeding.

Meanwhile, both sides presented their opening arguments, and prosecutors called several witnesses to the stand.

Schanze still faces two misdemeanor charges of making threats with a dangerous weapon in a fight and making written false statements. The charges stem for an incident in Draper last year when Schanze was confronted by angry neighbors who said he was speeding through their neighborhood. When one of them threatened to damage his car, Schanze allegedly drew his gun.

Schanze says he drew the gun in self defense.

The trial is expected to last three days.

(Copyright 2006 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
**********************

"SuperDell" is the name Schanze used to characterize himself while selling computers.

Video at this link:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=256723

 

[KenW.]

My understanding is that Dell was approached by multiple adversaries, several of whm were carrying rocks. If this were actualy the case, I'd have drawn too.

They were after him because he was allegedly speeding in a residential area.

 

[Warren]

Allegedly speeding?

He plead to it. So it is not alleged anymore.


This goes to strategy of not putting yourself in situations where you might end up drawing your gun.

had he respected his neighbors enough to not drive like an ass he would not be in court now.

 

[WeedWhacker]

had he respected his neighbors enough to not drive like an ass he would not be in court now.

So, being threatened with bodily harm by several rock-wielding individuals is justified by someone travelling higher than a certain mostly arbitrary limit? The phrase 'an eye for an eye' means that the punishment must fit the crime: the apparent thugs in this case should have called the police rather than attempt to take the law into their own hands.

I hope the neighbors had all registered their rocks with the local police department.

-edit
Ouch, 50 in a 25. Weeeell, that's a bit harder to justify, unless it was a nice four-lane with wide shoulders and great lighting, etc. Still doesn't excuse the neighbors' response, tho.

 

[Warren]

It is their right to confront people who are endangering others, it is their neighborhood and their safety.

What they were doing was no more than a citizens' arrest of a wrongdoer.

He responded by pulling his gun. Would he have done that if it WAS a policeman confronting him?

He acted like an idiot and now has to face the judge.

 

[WeedWhacker]

What they were doing was no more than a citizens' arrest of a wrongdoer.

So, cops pick up rocks and threaten to break personal property?
There was wrong done on both sides. What remains to be seen is if the CCW-holder had cause to fear for his life/well-being/whatever is required for drawing a CCW in Utah.

 

[The Drew]

Here's how this should've been resolved...

He should be fined and possibly have his license suspended for the traffic violation,

The mob that threatened him should all be arrested for threats with a deadly weapon,

and that's it. As far as I'm concerned speeding (at any speed) does NOT justify a mob to threaten someones property and their life... I'd have drawn too...

 

[KenW.]

I used the word "allegedly", because at the time of the incident his speeding was only alleged, not verified. On the scene those citizens acted like a lynch mob. I would have warned them off verbally, and failing that I'd have drawn too. There is no "duty to retreat" in this state.

None of use were there, but this case has been in the local (Utah) news off and on for some time now. I'm using a computer put together by one of his former shops. Everyone here (in Utah) is familiar him from TV and radio ads and interviews.

By law, a citizen's arrest is made by stating to the person that he is under arrest, and have him stay until law enforcement can arrive to either take custody of him, or issue a citation to be signed by the complainant. Law does not allow the use deadly force in an arrest for a misdemeanor.

Both sides share some blame. Dell should not have been speeding, the mob shouldn't have threatened him.

The way to confront a person about a speeding complaint is not with your hands full of rocks. He stated in several of his commercials that he possessed a CCW. He once owned a very successfull gun shop here locally, and would give discounts on computer purchases to CCW holders.

The "mob" mentallity overtook that group of citizens. But Dell did not difuse it either.

 

[Maxwell]

Just because you plead guilty dosnt mean it happend that way, and this does not sound like a "drag him out of his car and stone him to save the children" situation.

If his story is true: They wanted to confront him as a group about his behavior... and they brought weapons. Unfortunatly for them He had a better weapon and now they want to complain about how unfair that was?

I dont think when your approached by a mob that you should be the one put in charge of diffusing it. If he had fear for his life then he had justification to brandish and possibly use it.

Personaly I suspect he was on some kind of powertrip. If we didnt need ccw laws then owning and carrying a gun would be nothing special, probly avoiding this incident entirely.

 

[KenW.]

Not only did they bring weapons (rocks), they threatened to use them.

I think a CCW holder has a certain moral responsibility to do his best to NOT have to draw his gun. We should act wisely. He may have been able to settle the situation down by simply apologizing, and going on with life. Maybe that way his computer stores would still be open.

If he'sd let them pelt his car with the rocks, he'd get more $ out of them in court than he'd have invested in a speeding fine. It depends entirely on his perception of the threat. Did he feel the danger was to HIM, or his CAR. If can articulate that HE was in danger, he may get off.

 

[Goet]

Three points

1. SuperDell has a god complex. Thus, prosecutors want to get him to earn a name for themselves.

2. He shouldn't have been "showing off" his car in that neighborhood. Yes, he was in the wrong.

3. If I remember the story correctly, HIS CHILDREN was in the car that they threatened to smash with large rocks.

Now, wouldn't you be willing to protect your child from rock-weilding vigilantes?

Anyone foolish enough to say "no"?

 

[Car Knocker]

A bit more information:

Super Dell's gun trial begins
Still outspoken: Witnesses testify that Schanze sped on their streets and pulled a gun
By Stephen Hunt
The Salt Lake Tribune






Dell Schanze, left, with lawyer James Vilos, heard his wife testify why he had a gun: threatening e-mails and "disturbing phone calls." (Steve Griffin/The Salt Lake Tribune )

The normally antic-prone "Super" Dell Buck Schanze exercised restraint Wednesday during the first day of his trial for allegedly brandishing a handgun and lying about it to police.
But the former computer store owner couldn't resist complaining to news reporters about living in a state that "will issue you a concealed weapons permit, then arrest you the first time you use it."
Schanze, 36, of Sandy, is charged with "threatening with or using a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel," a class A misdemeanor.
Prosecutors say that after speeding through a Draper neighborhood on May 21, 2005, Schanze was confronted by several angry residents.
Schanze allegedly pulled a Glock 10mm handgun from his pocket after one resident, wielding a rock, threatened to break the tail lights of his black Jaguar.
Prosecutor Christopher Bown said Schanze over-reacted.
"He pulled the weapon when there was no self defense," Bown told the six-person jury. Bown said a threat of imminent and serious bodily injury is required before deadly force can be threatened.
But defense attorney James "Mitch" Vilos called it "a case of a man taking reasonable precautions to protect himself, two children and his property from three angry strangers, who were acting like vigilantes and taking the law into their own hands."
Vilos said Schanze showed the gun "not to threaten," but to be "ready to react," if necessary.
The three residents testified they followed Schanze after he sped through the kid-filled neighborhood.
But when confronted, Schanze reacted with "arrogance and a lack of remorse," testified Scott Tatum.
Clinton Sanderson testified that Schanze claimed he wasn't speeding, that he was great driver and that he offered to charge him and Tatum $1,000 apiece to give them driving lessons.
"I said, 'You were going at least 80 mph, so I'm going to kick the tail lights out of your car,' " Sanderson testified. "I was looking for an apology, so I was stunned by his response."
Sanderson testified Schanze followed him back to the Jaguar and away from where he picked up a fist-sized rock. Sanderson said he dropped the fist-sized rock as soon as he turned and saw Schanze holding the gun over his heart.
Schanze's 8-year-old daughter was not present at the incident, according to Sanderson. But Jennifer Culver, who was visiting from Washington state, testified Sanderson picked up the rock during the initial confrontation with Schanze, while his daughter was watching.
Schanze and the two men then walked to the Jaguar, where Schanze pulled the gun and pointed it ahead, with his arm bent 90 degrees at the elbow, Culver said.
She said a 12-year-old boy, an acquaintance of Schanze who was at the park, was standing nearby when the gun came out.
When police arrived, Schanze said he had not brandished a gun and he later wrote that he pulled out a cell phone to call police. But he then told reporters he had showed a gun. For making those apparently inconsistent remarks, Schanze is charged with providing a false statement to police..
Testifying for the defense was expert Clark Aposhian, who chairs the state's concealed weapon review board. Aposhian also certified Schanze to carry concealed weapons and once managed Schanze's Totally Awesome gun store. Aposhian said he teaches people that an attacker who is closer than 30 feet can be on them before a handgun can be unholstered. To cut down that "reactionary gap," he said, he teaches gun carriers to bring the weapon out before an assailant comes that close.
According to testimony, Sanderson was about 20 feet from Schanze.
Schanze did not testify, but his wife, Teresa Schanze, did.
Apparently emphasizing her husband's need to carry guns - police took two from him at the hang-gliding park - she said they have endured threatening e-mails, "disturbing phone calls," rocks thrown through windows and "a drive-by paint-balling" during the past few years.
Prior to Wednesday's trial, Schanze pleaded guilty to speeding, reduced from a more serious charge of reckless driving. He admitted to driving 50 mph in a 25 mph zone.
[email protected]

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3808659

 

[Goet]

btw, Vilos is the A#1 attorney for gun rights in Utah. Dell is coming out swinging hard. Chris Bown, the prosecutor, is small fry. He is relatively inexperienced (this is, after all a misdemeanor), and has been a prosecutor for only about 4 years.

 

[KenW.]

Dell was just on the 11:00 channel 13 news, saying if he looses his CCW, he'll start openly carrying a submachine gun. He states he could do that legally.

I'd have to do more research on that one, but he may indeed have a class III license.

 

[Car Knocker]

If I remember the story correctly, HIS CHILDREN was in the car that they threatened to smash with large rocks.

Now, wouldn't you be willing to protect your child from rock-weilding vigilantes?

Anyone foolish enough to say "no"?

It appears there is some question as to where Shanze's daughter was at the time of the incident:

Schanze's 8-year-old daughter was not present at the incident, according to Sanderson. But Jennifer Culver, who was visiting from Washington state, testified Sanderson picked up the rock during the initial confrontation with Schanze, while his daughter was watching.
Schanze and the two men then walked to the Jaguar, where Schanze pulled the gun and pointed it ahead, with his arm bent 90 degrees at the elbow, Culver said.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Conflicting stories and equal blame.

Is is legal to speed through a neighborhood? No. Is it legal to be an ass about it? Yes.

Dell was wrong to speed through the neighborhood and seems to have an arogance problem. His neighbors should have called the cops and had them deal with it, or approached Dell in a calm maner to discuss it with him. The neighbor should not have picked up the rock (weapon) and made threats to injure Dell or his property.

Dell is only justified in drawing if he had reason to believe that he or his daughter were in danger. If all the neighbor was going to do was smash a tail light then Dell should have let him (and then sued his pants off).

 

[Car Knocker]

Latest update. Note the bolded section - it appears that Dell's daughter may not have been in the car when the guy with the rock approached the car.

Jury in Schanze Trial Now Deliberating
May 11th, 2006 @ 12:05pm
Richard Piatt reporting

Former owner of "Totally Awesome Computers" appears in court again today. Dell Schanze is accused of pulling out a gun in a Draper Neighborhood.

A jury is now considering the criminal case against Super Dell Schanze. Schanze is charged with pulling a gun during an argument, then lying about it.

There are two major elements in this case: A rock and a Glock. Is the fact that a that a man picked up a rock and threatened to break out a tail light enough to justify pulling out a gun in self defense. Dell Schanze says yes.

As he walking into court today, he blamed the media for ruining his former business "Totally Awesome Computers". Publicity turned popular opinion against him. He is hoping the jury sees his case differently.

Dell Schanze, Former Owner, Totally Awesome Computers: "I also had a legal right to defend my property with anything less than lethal force. All of the guys are still alive. They have no case. The only thing they have, is the hate and contention that you freaking evil people have created."

Schanze, 36, of Sandy is charged with "threatening with or using a dangerous weapon in a fight or quarrel," a class A misdemeanor. Prosecutors say that after speeding through a Draper neighborhood on May 21, 2005, Schanze brandished a handgun as he was confronted by several angry residents who had followed him to a hang-gliding park. He allegedly pulled a Glock 10mm handgun from his pocket when one resident threatened to break the tail lights of Schanze's black Jaguar. Schanze calls the neighbors "vigilantes" who were swearing at him in front of his 8-year-old daughter.

Dell Schanze: "I had an 8-year-old child right there with me, holding my hand, and these guys are cussing and swearing, and that's what makes me emotional."
Schanze was also charged with reckless driving, a class B misdemeanor, but prior to the trial, he pleaded guilty to a reduced charge of speeding, a class C misdemeanor, for driving 50 mph in a 25 mph zone.

Dell was emotional at closing arguments today, openly weeping at one point as his lawyer was making his case. During one of the media interviews Schanze grabbed the ears of one of the reporters, and asked if he was listening to his arguments about his side of the case.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=258598

 

[HankB]

The story says he was originally charged with "reckless driving" . . . my question is, by who and on what basis??? Was the alleged driving offense witnessed by a sworn LEO, or did they just write him up for that based on hearsay?

What kind of neighbors confront someone (with a rock!) and threaten vandalism based on speeding, even if the guy IS a Class A jerk? Normal people would call the cops, videotape the offense, or something of the sort.

And normal people don't drive at high speed through residential areas.

Why is it that I don't think I'd want ANY of the principals in the story - not Schanze, not Tatum, not Sanderson - living nearby?

(And if "making false statements" to a police officer triggers criminal charges, what about the recent case of one Congressman Kennedy, who claimed he was on his way to a House vote when he crashed his car . . . even though the House had adjourned hours earlier?)

 

[Marnoot]

I'd have to do more research on that one, but he may indeed have a class III license.

Indeed he does. Him and his "PC Laptops" buddy and other associated morons started our local range on fire a few years ago. See this post by Archer from this thread.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Now Hank, don't be so hard on Kennedy. Making false statements is only an offence when in conjunction with other crimes like Reckless Driving, Driving While Intoxicated, or illegal use of perscription medication.

 

[Correia]

Guys, I know a little bit about this case. And most of you are wrong on multiple counts.

Super Dell is a complete idiot. His story is utter crap. I know many officers of the Draper PD. (FBMG is in Draper) Super Dell lied to the police, and his story doesn't just conflict with the guys that cornered him, but it also conflicts with a number of witnesses that came out of their homes to see what all the commotion was about.

I know Mitch Vilos. I respect Mitch. I've squadded up with him in IDPA, and I use his book when I teach CCW. However I'm pretty sure Mitch is going to lose this one.

Dell needs to lose his CCW. The man is a whackjob who makes 65,000 other Utah CCW holders look like idiots.

I'm not excusing the people who boxed him in. That is just stupid. But they were tired of having this maniac with a god complex almost running their children down in a residential neigborhood.

By the accounts I heard, it is unlikely that Dell or his daughter was threatened with greivious bodily harm. (the standard here) But rather Dell's car was threatened.

I wasn't there, and neither were you guys. But let's not think that just because this guy is a gun person, that he is one of us, or that he is on our side.

 

[Warren]

Super Dell is both a jerk and a hypocrit and a drama queen with possible mental problems. I cannot see any reason to defend him.

He thinks it is all right to pull a gun when someone curses and threatens his taillight. Okay.

Does that not mean then that if someone puts an entire neighborhood at risk by driving in reckless disregard for the safety of the residents then those resients have a right to stop the driver? Say by pulling their own guns and shooting him?

Based on Dell's own rationale you and he would have to say yes. Unless you place the value of a taillight above that of a human being.

The man acrted in a criminal manner and was stiopped by the locals, if he was a vandal, burglar, drug dealer or worse we would all be applauding him. But since he is a CCW we are supposed to take his side in this.

No chance. And as to his daughter it was Dell that put her in a risky situation.

He and only he is to blame here.


I think for some of you this is a defend the CCW regardless of the fact that his own behavior brought this on.

 

[Templar223]

had he respected his neighbors enough to not drive like an ass he would not be in court now.

Now there's an inflammatory, and perhaps asinine statement.

I'm guessing you've done some things that would be interpreted by some as being 'like an ass', but did they threaten you with bodily injury after you perpetrated those acts?

Clearly, if it is several BGs armed with weapons or blunt force instruments, you are within your rights to defend yourself, irrespective of whether you were driving 'like an ass' or not.

And the last couple of posts here flirt with CoC violations, to put it mildly.

John

 

[Correia]

Templar,

Are you telling me that I'm in violation of the Code of Conduct on THR?

My friend, I helped write the code of conduct for THR.

Super Dell is not a member here. He is a public figure. And he is a figure that has apparently snowed a whole lot of the general gun population outside of this state. You don't see very many Utahns on this board championing the man. Those of us who are familiar with him, aren't defending him.

BECAUSE HE IS INSANE!

Juse because he has a CCW and owned a gunstore does not make him our ally.

Just got this off the local news, Super Dell left the court room and grabbed a reporter by the ears, and shook him, saying "why aren't you listening to me!" I'm sure we can start the battery trial as soon as this one is over.

Templar, let me catch you up with the laws here. I teach Utah CCW. You need to be in danger of receiving grevious bodily harm. A reasonable person needs to assume that the assailants have the ability, opportunity, and are an immenant threat.

Now if through your stupidity, you put yourself in a bad situation, or you engage in mutal combat, and then yank your gun, that is going to put doubt of your reasonableness in the mind of the jury.

If all of the witnesses to the scene say that you were not in danger of grevious bodily harm (hitting your tail light with a rock ain't gonna cut it) then you are going to be in trouble. If you then LIE to the cops about what happened, you are going to be in trouble.

 

[Correia]

I'm probably a little on edge about this case. I've spent the last several months having to explain over and over and over again, to the fence sitting public, why the average CCW holder is not like Super Dell. This case reflects badly on us as a group, and is sadly the only thing that most of the public has heard about anything CCW related on the news in the last year.