Supreme Court to Hear DC Case

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So you think I should have to pledge to use arms in service of the state in order to have them?



I'll Let George Washington answer your question:

"It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even of his personal services to the defence of it..." George Washington, May 1, 1783, Peace Settlement

The history of this country has been predicated upon individuals supplying their own weapons. So no, you have it backwards. You have a gun and now you are required to use it in defense of your community or state or against the tyranny of that very same government when it violates the constituiton.
 
ieszu said:
First off, they could overturn the DC gun ban and "incorporate it"... means that the rest of the country would have to treat the 2A with as much reverence as the 1A.

Not exactly. The Court could easily reach a different level of scrutiny for firearms regulation vs. regulation for free speech. We have some very good commentary on the matter from various THR members if you search the archives here.

Or they could go the other way, and rule that the DC ban is constitutional, and incorporate it.

How do you incorporate a collective right of the states?
 
Usually you can not. Sometimes, individual justices will write dissents regarding the decision on cert and, even rarer, other justices will write opinions defending the decision in response to to a dissent.... but otherwise, the vote is not revealed.

Why do they do that? You would think that would be part of the public record.
 
a national militia apart from the federal government

That sounds antithetical to our frame of government, but how about the idea of State Militia apart from State government? Although the people of the US have no right to rise up in mass, the people of each State do have such a right.
 
The history of this country has been predicated upon individuals supplying their own weapons. So no, you have it backwards. You have a gun and now you are required to use it in defense of your community or state or against the tyranny of that very same government when it violates the constituiton.

Rhetorically, you and Washington have a point. But I don't want to see the Second depend on some service obligation. As in only veterans or LEO's can carry arms.
 
You seem to have decided that this appeal needs to be addressed within the confines of the militia clause because of the well-known discussion in Miller.

It is merely one of many points that needs to be addressed. My point is that it does need to be one of the points addressed, but certainly not the only one.

I believe that to be dicta

It was necessary to the decision to reverse and remand.... therefore it is not dicta.

and to the extent it is holding it should be overruled.

I agree. What I am suggesting is that it is not fatal to Heller if it is not overruled. The theory is "sophisticated collective right". The antis position properly advances the theory (reasonably related to the militia... it must be interpreted and applied with that end in view), but drops the ball in its conclusion... a total non sequitur unsupported by logic or historical precedent and contradicted, if not by Miller (which I believe it does) then surely by Aymette... this is an "expanded sophisticated rights thesis" whereby every citizen has a KKBA because by virtue of that, the well regulated militia can never be destroyed by federal action or inaction, malovence or negligence... and that helps the "efficiency and preservation" of the well regulated militia.

The only thing it does not give you is incorporation...
 
Someone told me that they were in a law class and this subject came up yesterday.

The teacher, whom is a lawyer, and from what I know is a very good one, said it had to be decided as a "collective" right, because of the punctuation.

However, I guess this teacher sounds pretty biased towards people not having guns.
The teacher may be a good lawyer, but he/she is clearly not an English major.

No, the punctuation will not decide it. For two reasons: First, the fact that the copies distributed at the time of promulgation differed in punctuation demonstrates that the authors did not view the commas as controlling; and

Second, the grammar has been dissected by scholars of English grammar and shown to support the view that the militia clause is a subserviant, prefatory clause that does not affect the meaning of the main clause. The analyses are available on the Internet of you search for them. I'd give you a link but I don't have them bookmarked.
 
woof said:
I don't understand why they chose to review it at all if all they intended to do was affirm the lower court's ruling.
They took it because the district court ruling that the right is an individual right is in conflict with rulings from other districts. Thus the same document has opposite meaning in different parts of the U.S., and eliminating such conflicts is part of what the Supreme Court is supposed to do. Whatever the law says, it's supposed to say (and mean) the same thing in all 50 states.
 
I would say that this is all very clear without having to "legaleze" it. We and everyone knows what the 2A says and means, to twist it's words is to try and obtain power which is and was not guaranteed you in any way by those that wrote it. The answer to the whole situation would seem clear in that if our rights are taken then we, as citizens for which the whole thing was intended in the first place, use what is being taken away to take them back.
 
This is the best article I've seen so far.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/21/us...ewanted=1&_r=1


Justices Will Decide if Handgun Kept at Home Is Individual Right

By LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: November 21, 2007

WASHINGTON, Nov. 20 — The Supreme Court announced Tuesday that it would decide whether the Constitution grants individuals the right to keep guns in their homes for private use, plunging the justices headlong into a divisive and long-running debate over how to interpret the Second Amendment’s guarantee of the “right of the people to keep and bear arms.”

The court accepted a case on the District of Columbia’s 31-year-old prohibition on the ownership of handguns. In adding the case to its calendar, for argument in March with a decision most likely in June, the court not only raised the temperature of its current term but also inevitably injected the issue of gun control into the presidential campaign.

The federal appeals court here, breaking with the great majority of federal courts to have examined the issue over the decades, ruled last March that the Second Amendment right was an individual one, not tied to service in a militia, and that the District of Columbia’s categorical ban on handguns was therefore unconstitutional.

Both the District of Columbia government and the winning plaintiff, Dick Anthony Heller, a security officer, urged the justices to review the decision. Mr. Heller, who carries a gun while on duty guarding the federal building that houses the administrative offices of the federal court system, wants to be able to keep his gun at home for self-defense.

Mr. Heller was one of six plaintiffs recruited by a wealthy libertarian lawyer, Robert A. Levy, who created and financed the lawsuit for the purpose of getting a Second Amendment case before the Supreme Court. The appeals court threw out the other five plaintiffs for lack of standing; only Mr. Heller had actually applied for permission to keep a gun at home and been rejected.

The Supreme Court last looked at the Second Amendment nearly 70 years ago in United States v. Miller, a 1939 decision that suggested, without explicitly deciding, that the right should be understood in connection with service in a militia. The amendment states, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The justices chose their own wording for what they want to decide in the new case, District of Columbia v. Heller, No. 07-290. The question they posed is whether the provisions of the statute “violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes.”

The court’s choice of words is almost never inadvertent, and its use of the phrase “state-regulated militia” was somewhat curious. The District of Columbia, of course, is not a state, and one of the arguments its lawyers are making in their appeal is that the Second Amendment simply does not apply to “legislation enacted exclusively for the District of Columbia.”

For that matter, the Supreme Court has never ruled that the Second Amendment even applies to the states, as opposed to the federal government. It has applied nearly all the other provisions of the Bill of Rights to the states, leaving the Second Amendment as the most prominent exception. The justices evidently decided that this case was not the proper vehicle for exploring that issue, because as a nonstate, the District of Columbia is not in a position to argue it one way or another.

Because none of the justices now on the court have ever confronted a Second Amendment case, any prediction about how the court will rule is little more than pure speculation.


Of the hundreds of gun regulations on the books in states and localities around the country, the district’s ordinance is generally regarded as the strictest. Chicago comes the closest to it, banning the possession of handguns acquired since 1983 and requiring re-registration of older guns every two years. New York City permits handgun ownership with a permit issued by the Police Department.

The District of Columbia ordinance not only bans ownership of handguns, but also requires other guns that may be legally kept in the home, rifles and shotguns, to be disassembled or kept under a trigger lock. The capital’s newly empowered City Council enacted the ordinance in 1976 as one of its first measures after receiving home-rule authority from Congress.

The court’s order on Tuesday indicated that it would review the handgun ban in light of the provision that permits, with restrictions, the other guns. The opposing sides in the lawsuit presented very different views of how the various provisions interact.

To the plaintiffs, the restrictions on the conditions under which rifles and shotguns may be kept means that homeowners are denied the right to possess “functional” weapons for self-defense. To the District of Columbia, the fact that these other guns are permitted shows that the ordinance is nuanced and sensitive to gun owners’ needs. It takes about one minute to disengage a trigger lock.

In any event, a Supreme Court decision that finds the district’s ordinance unconstitutional would not necessarily invalidate other, more modest restrictions, like those that permit handgun ownership for those who pass a background check and obtain a license. Since the only claim in the case is that law-abiding people have the right to keep a gun at home, the court will not have occasion to address restrictions on carrying guns.

In fact, lawyers on both sides of the case agreed Tuesday that a victory for the plaintiff in this case would amount to the opening chapter in an examination of the constitutionality of gun control rather than anything close to the final word.

“This is just the beginning,” said Alan Gura, the lead counsel for the plaintiff.

Mr. Gura said in an interview that “gun laws that make sense,” like those requiring background checks, would survive the legal attack, which he said was limited to “laws that do no good other than disarm law-abiding citizens.”

Whether the handgun ban has reduced crime in a city surrounded by less restrictive jurisdictions is a matter of heated dispute. Crime in the District of Columbia has mirrored trends in the rest of the country, dropping quite sharply during the 1990s but now experiencing some increase.

In striking down the district’s ordinance, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit said that an individual-right interpretation of the Second Amendment would still permit “reasonable regulations,” but that a flat ban was not reasonable.

Dennis A. Henigan, a lawyer at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which advocates strict gun control, said that if the justices agree with the appeals court, an important question for future cases will be “what legal standard the court will eventually adopt for evaluating other gun regulations.”
 
I've got my "we're f*cked" hat on, and in the event of some miracle and this turns out favorable for us, I will consume only half as much alcohol as I will if the Supremes subvert the Constitution's original intent. However, suffice it to say I'm fully stocked up for whichever eventuality occurs.

:(
 
What power would that be?

The power of the government over the people. I thought my intent obvious but even when you've been on the faceless net as long as I have you still tend to forget that everyone reads differently, even with punctuation. That was probably not a statement for a first post but I usually only comment when I have something to say. My point is that if they take away our rights then we should use that which is being taken to regain them. I assume that this was the intent of the document as it was written and intended no matter the interpretation by those who would seek safety for themselves by denying ours.
 
I've got my "we're f*cked" hat on, and in the event of some miracle and this turns out favorable for us, I will consume only half as much alcohol as I will if the Supremes subvert the Constitution's original intent. However, suffice it to say I'm fully stocked up for whichever eventuality occurs.
As for me and my house, I'm going to continue consuming large amounts of alcohol no matter what the decision is.

How do you find out which Justices voted to hear the case?

Usually you can not. Sometimes, individual justices will write dissents regarding the decision on cert and, even rarer, other justices will write opinions defending the decision in response to to a dissent.... but otherwise, the vote is not revealed.
Are you sure? I remember seeing a legal form that showed who voted to hear a particular case. This information was attached to an opinion written by a judge.
 
I would say that this is all very clear without having to "legaleze" it. We and everyone knows what the 2A says and means, to twist it's words is to try and obtain power which is and was not guaranteed you in any way by those that wrote it. The answer to the whole situation would seem clear in that if our rights are taken then we, as citizens for which the whole thing was intended in the first place, use what is being taken away to take them back.

In your very first forum message you have solved the very problem that has caused so much discussion and disagreement in this country for so many years: If you don't get what you want you will shoot people who disagree with you. Congratulations.
 
No, what I'm saying is at what point do we no longer lay down and take the abuses foisted upon us in the name of the greater good? What is the greater good then? Just for the record, I didn't say that I would shoot people for not agreeing with me, if that were the case I wouldn't be able to write this.
 
I haven't had time to read most of the nearly 200 comments, so if I repeat what someone else has pointed out, I'll just say, "Great minds think alike!"

From the Article said:
Dick Heller, a District resident who works as an armed security guard protecting the lives of various government officials during the day but is forbidden by District law from keeping a handgun at home to protect himself, explained, “I want to be able to defend myself and my wife from violent criminals, and the Constitution says I have a right to do that by keeping a gun in my home. The police can’t be everywhere, and they can’t protect everyone all the time. Responsible gun ownership is a basic right we have as American citizens.”

Heller now needs that protection so that he doesn't suffer the same fate as Miller.


Cosmoline said:
They could affirm it on very narrow grounds, but even if all they do is acknowledge the existence of the Second as an individual right it will be a major victory.

I think the Court just did that with the way they phrased the question:

“Whether the following provisions — D.C. Code secs. 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02 — violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes?”

That tells me the Court recognizes that an individual has standing here. They are not asking whether the individual has such a right, but if that right is violated by the DC Codes.

Woody

PS: Time to switch to biting the nails on the other hand now. God forbid we need to move on to our toes..

Never mind. That sounds too gross.
 
Re Supreme Court On DC Ban

I heard about this today on the car radio. They said that this issue of an individual right versus the collective right has not been before the Supreme court in over 60 years. That does not sound right to me. Anyway, I am amazed that this will come in time for the 08 presidential elections. I don't think that this is a coincidence. This could be very good or very bad for us. It is amazing that the simple intent of the Framers is so often called into question! The People ARE the militia. We will see how this goes. :scrutiny:
 
Party like it's 1776

They simply can not deny that "the right of the people" is anything else but.
So long post 1986 ban, hello affordable 3 round burst and better, silencers for out door ranges in suburbia.
Our grandkids will scoff at our modern movies and tv shows saying that they have their finger on the trigger!
You won't graduate high school without passing gun safety!:D:D:D
 
fla2760

They said that this issue of an individual right versus the collective right has not been before the Supreme court in over 60 years.
Not really true, the miller case was just a ruling on weapons, specific to sawed off shotty.
This whole "collective" BS is modern, it would have been laughed at prior to the 1960's.

The people means the people, to say otherwise means civil war, they know it, even if Mayors Fenty and Bloomburg can't admit it because of their mental problems.
 
Let's assume that the USSC rules in favor of Heller, and they rule BROADLY, happy days, would that be to much to hope for?

Think that in such ruling, they might even get around to stating that The Second Amendment applies to the states, as well as the federal government. Wouldn't that be absolutely lovely? Might they also note that gun control (registration and such scams) were not to be disguised as REVENUE MEASURES, as was the case with the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Is there still a Santa Claus, even one that might arrive as late as June, when it has been speculated, that the court might ruled by? Perhaps I'd best shut this thing down and go to bed.
 
No, what I'm saying is at what point do we no longer lay down and take the abuses foisted upon us in the name of the greater good? What is the greater good then? Just for the record, I didn't say that I would shoot people for not agreeing with me, if that were the case I wouldn't be able to write this.

Simply looking at this in the context of history, if their ruling is to denigrate the Constitution it will not bode well. Think: drastically falling dollar, socio-political internal strife, the appearance of rigged or manipulated elections by the power elite, an ever-increasing gap between uber-rich and the average man (to say nothing of the so-called working poor), international distrust for our country, and so on and so forth... I can think of several scenarios in history which have similar building blocks.

Basically, what I'm saying is that I think we're being set up for revolution or rebellion - and I'm not necessarily talking by the "people".
 
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