Supreme Court to Hear DC Case

Status
Not open for further replies.
Your revolution scenario is exacerbated by the fact that so many people are simply not represented in today's political system. There are so many felonies, many of which are victimless crimes, that much of the population cannot vote, get a decent job or otherwise make their voices heard.

Here in Wyoming we have been trying to create a path where prople can get their records expunged so they can purchase firearms again. The ATF didn't like that. Tough.

A strong Second Amendment ruling would go a long way towards rights restoration.
 
Cosmoline and legaleagle 45
Are you both determined to bore us to death with your meaningless,inane,self centered utterings? To quote Juan Carlos of Spain to Hugo Chavez"Why don't you both shut up?".
One of the dumbest comments I've seen on THR.
 
Leagleagle_45 wrote:
BTW, I will state once again that I believe both Miller and Aymette were wrongly decided
Where do you believe Aymette was wrongly decided? A too narrow scope for 'keep?'
 
Flechette

Who has the right? - "the people"
Why do they have the right? - so they may form militias.
Why are militas important? - because they are necessary for the security of a free state.

Note, one does not have to be in a militia to have the right; you have the right, period. It is equivalent to saying that we have Freedom of the Press so that the people know what their government is doing, but that does not mean that only news reporters can write, and only about politics. You can write comic books if you like...

Brilliant analysis - this should be part of the argument for Heller, and part of every amicus brief. The logic is impeccable.
 
alan

Might they also note that gun control (registration and such scams) were not to be disguised as REVENUE MEASURES, as was the case with the National Firearms Act of 1934.

I wonder if the '34 NFA can even be claimed to be a revenue raiser now, in light of the '86 full auto ban. Now collecting the tax is verboten for post-'86 full autos. The NFA needs to be junked, or at least the '86 ban.
 
what I wonder is how they'll define defensive firearms.

Im an army medic (68w) and we're only permitted defensive weaponry, this means no crew served weapons (m249 is iffy) and no offensive weaponry such as grenades ect. we're limited to small arms (though they can be automatic, m16a1-a4 for example)

do we really want grenades available for public purchase? I mean I wouldn't mind but where does the line get drawn? In a crime free america there would be no line imo but I dont want gangbangers blowing up banks and ****. Crime will happen either way but things like explosives are really hard to get right now for the average joe criminal.

(ps, I dont even know where to sit on this issue, the strict libertarian in me says that not infringed is pretty simple, but the practical side of me thinks that there's obviously a line out there that must be defined. I dont think that it includes small arms of course...)
 
Something I rediscovered, which is interesting in light of the argument over collective vs. individual right:
Quote:
In United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, the United States Supreme Court has declared that the use of the term “the people” as used in the Second Amendment is consistent with its use in the First Amendment.

“’[T]he people’ protected by . . . the first and second amendments. . . refers to a class of persons who are part of a national community or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection with this country to be considered part of that community.”

What the Court is telling us is that the rights protected by both the First and Second Amendments are rights “of the of the people” and not of the state, in sum, individual rights.
I wouldn't get too excited about the above dicta:
However, the Court didn't discuss whether the militia clause is a limiting factor, and how it might restrict the people's right to keep and bear arms. Moreover, in U.S. v. Hale, 978 F.2d 1016 (8th Cir. 1992), the Eighth Circuit stated:

"Citing dicta from United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 ... Hale argues that the Second Amendment protections apply to individuals and not to states or collective entities like militias. This argument is inapplicable to this case. The purpose of the Second Amendment is to restrain the federal government from regulating the possession of arms where such regulation would interfere with the preservation or efficiency of the militia ... Whether the 'right to bear arms' for militia purposes is [Page 24] 'individual' or 'collective' in nature is irrelevant where, as here, the individual's possession of arms is not related to the preservation or efficiency of a militia. Id. at 1020."

The Supreme Court denied an appeal of Hale.
 
It's interesting to see how the District's NBC-TV affiliate Supreme Court analyst, Pete Williams, presented today's decision. His opinion is that the question's phrasing signals that the Court will "delve deeply" into the meaning of the Second Amendment. The implication is large. My own temptation is to think that he might be picking up signals denied to many of us.

By the way, I'm grateful to Cosmoline, Legaleagle 45, Buzz Knox, Bartholomew Roberts, Jeff White, and the many others in this discussion who are focusing on the issue in useful detail. They reflect this forum at its best. Thank you, gentlemen.
 
It's a good start

Thanks for the link Robert, excellent perspective. I agree that once the individual rights issue is settled (defining the 2A "people") then we can see cases regarding the "shall not be infringed" issue. That won't be nearly as clear cut -- reasonable restrictions, mental patients, yada yada yada. Getting a SCOTUS ruling in our favor is just the beginning, but it's a good start.
 
Where do you believe Aymette was wrongly decided? A too narrow scope for 'keep?'

Yep... although I can not prove it, I will NEVER give up my "keep" thesis unless and until John Adams arises from his grave and slaps me across the head with a volume of Coke's Commentaries on Littleton...:neener:
 
Just my opinion but the only way this is going through is for them to rule VERY narrowly.

They will address the three ordinances that they referenced and thats it.

SCOTUS will likely affirm that:

1. The DC Ban is UnConstitutional
2. The requirement to secure all firearms in a non-functional state is unreasonable
3. That 2A Affirms an Individual Right not tied in any way/shape/form to participation in Militia of any sort.

This will be a Fed Only Ruling and they will avoid any attempt to Incorporate/Tie 2A to apply to States as well as Fed......thats going to be another fight altogether folks.....

I just don't see them taking a broad approach to this one folks...if they intended to do so they would have phrased the question to reflect that....and they didn't....hopefully with a narrow ruling even slime like Ginsberg will find the courage to do what she knows is right and side with Ind Right.
 
Hugh wrote:

That sounds antithetical to our frame of government, but how about the idea of State Militia apart from State government?

You left out my copyrighted legal weasel word "somewhat". The state militias acting in concert with each other to oppose federal tyranny--- a quasi "national militia" but still under the control of the individual states.

From Madison in Federalist 46:

But ambitious encroachments of the federal government, on the authority of the State governments, would not excite the opposition of a single State, or of a few States only. They would be signals of general alarm. Every government would espouse the common cause. A correspondence would be opened. Plans of resistance would be concerted. One spirit would animate and conduct the whole. The same combinations, in short, would result from an apprehension of the federal, as was produced by the dread of a foreign, yoke; and unless the projected innovations should be voluntarily renounced, the same appeal to a trial of force would be made in the one case as was made in the other.
 
DC Case

I have to agree with post #204 that It is about the individual's RKBA for the prevention of tyranny in our government, and for protection of life, liberty, and property. That's what I believe the founders meant by the 2nd, for they had just come out from under the King of England's control of tyranny, thus the Declaration of Independence. They knew an unarmed population could not stay free.That has been proved so many times in the past. Well, the murder rate in D.C. is proof again. Then only the criminals and govt would have guns.
 
Getting a SCOTUS ruling in our favor is just the beginning, but it's a good start.

Yup. Old guys learn valuable lessons by virtue of having survived longer.

  1. Not losing is better than losing.
  2. Fights are won by whoever is not losing longer than everyone else.
  3. Nobody ever beats the person who is the most determined at not losing.
  4. Winning is one not losing event after another.
  5. Not losing is terminated by giving up or dying, which ever comes first.
  6. Patience and persistence are the two keys to not losing.

In short, you can grind the bastards down. It's extremely satisfying too.

One way to know that God smiles upon you is when He grants you an impatient opponent.
 
You left out my copyrighted legal weasel word "somewhat". The state militias acting in concert with each other to oppose federal tyranny--- a quasi "national militia" but still under the control of the individual states.

You mean like a confederation of states?

Not losing is better than losing.

Fights are won by whoever is not losing longer than everyone else.

Nobody ever beats the person who is the most determined at not losing.

Winning is one not losing event after another.

Not losing is terminated by giving up or dying, which ever comes first.

In short, you can grind the bastards down. It's extremely satisfying too.

Sometimes that is the best you can hope for. It worked for the North during the Civil War by "not losing" one battle after another until the South was worn out.

Remember black slaves were freed in the US in the 1860s and steadily suffered errosion of rights in most states (and Federal level) all the way into the late 1940s, when that trend was gradually reversed. On a long enough timeline gun owners may as well. Personally I would like to see it in my life time.
 
Bad Company:

If I may, your reference to "grenades", perhaps unwittingly, serves as ammunition for the anti gunners, as do references to "howitzers, missiles" and such devices sometimes seen in various posts. We must learn to be careful with words, lest we be beaten with them. Just look at the damage done to our side by the misuse of the term "assault rifle", by various gun people.
 
Sam Adams:

The 1934 Act can be described as a revenue raising law and has been so described. The fact that it might not be particularly effective thereas is beside the point.

Lookig at the misuse of terminology, look at all the mileage obtained by the anti gunners via their describing what are plainly semi-automatic rifles as "assault rifles". Unfortunately,a lie repeated long enough, in a sufficiently loud voice will come to be accepted as truth.
 
Great Thread!

One way I look at this is that there is a fourth branch of government: We the People; the governed. Our powers are not enumerated as are the powers of the other three branches, but are instead protected by the Constitution in two ways: One is by the power granted to Congress, the Executive, and the Judicial being limited in scope. The other way is the direct protection of our rights as in the Bill of Rights.

We are as much responsible for the protection of our rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as those we place in government. Our arms are the leverage that enforces the efficacy of our vote, the force that says, "Don't Tread on Me", and the most prudent way of protecting ourselves, our property, and our freedom. The reservation of power in the Tenth Amendment to the people guarantees we shall ever have the option to replace those in government by the vote or the vanguard. Our right to arm ourselves, protected by the Second Amendment, is essential. Without those arms, we are all villein.

Pray the Court sees this issue the same way.

Woody

"There is nothing to fear in this country from free people. But, when freedom is usurped, there is something to fear for people will revolt to remain free. To all usurpers, do the math. But don't wonder the outcome when you miscalculate." B.E.Wood
 
...From Michigan's Attorney General, Mike Cox.

Second-Amendment Showdown
By MIKE COX
November 23, 2007; Page A13
Wall Street Journal
The Supreme Court has agreed to take up a case that will affect millions of Americans and could also have an impact on the 2008 elections. That case, Parker v. D.C., should settle the decades-old argument whether the right "to keep and bear arms" of the Constitution's Second Amendment is an individual right -- that all Americans enjoy -- or only a collective right that states may regulate freely. Legal, historical and even empirical reasons all command a decision that recognizes the Second Amendment guarantee as an individual right.
The amendment reads: "A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." If "the right of the people" to keep and bear arms was merely an incident of, or subordinate to, a governmental (i.e., a collective) purpose -- that of ensuring an efficient or "well regulated" militia -- it would be logical to conclude, as does the District of Columbia -- that government can outlaw the individual ownership of guns. But this collective interpretation is incorrect.
To analyze what "the right of the people" means, look elsewhere within the Bill of Rights for guidance. The First Amendment speaks of "the right of the people peaceably to assemble . . ." No one seriously argues that the right to assemble or associate with your fellow citizens is predicated on the number of citizens or the assent of a government. It is an individual right.
The Fourth Amendment says, "the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated . . . " The "people" here does not refer to a collectivity, either.
The rights guaranteed in the Bill of Right are individual. The Third and Fifth Amendments protect individual property owners; the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments protect potential individual criminal defendants from unreasonable searches, involuntary incrimination, appearing in court without an attorney, excessive bail, and cruel and unusual punishments.
The Ninth Amendment protects individual rights not otherwise enumerated in the Bill of Rights. The 10th Amendment states, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." Here, "the people" are separate from "the states"; thus, the Second Amendment must be about more than simply a "state" militia when it uses the term "the people."
Consider the grammar. The Second Amendment is about the right to "keep and bear arms." Before the conjunction "and" there is a right to "keep," meaning to possess. This word would be superfluous if the Second Amendment were only about bearing arms as part of the state militia. Reading these words to restrict the right to possess arms strains common rules of composition.
Colonial history and politics are also instructive. James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights to provide a political compromise between the Federalists, who favored a strong central government, and the Anti-Federalists, who feared a strong central government as an inherent danger to individual rights. In June 1789, then Rep. Madison introduced 12 amendments, a "bill of rights," to the Constitution to convince the remaining two of the original 13 colonies to ratify the document.
Madison's draft borrowed liberally from the English Bill of Rights of 1689 and Virginia's Declaration of Rights. Both granted individual rights, not collective rights. As a result, Madison proposed a bill of rights that reflected, as Stanford University historian Jack Rakove notes, his belief that the "greatest dangers to liberty would continue to arise within the states, rather than from a reconstituted national government." Accordingly, Mr. Rakove writes that "Madison justified all of these proposals (Bill of Rights) in terms of the protection they would extend to individual and minority rights."
One of the earliest scholars of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, confirmed this focus on individuals in his famous "Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States" in 1833. "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms," Story wrote, "has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of republics, since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers . . ."
It is also important to consider the social context at the time of the drafting and adoption of the Bill of Rights. Our Founding Fathers lived in an era where there were arms in virtually every household. Most of America was rural or, even more accurately, frontier. The idea that in the 1780s the common man, living in the remote woods of the Allegheny Mountains of western Pennsylvania and Virginia, would depend on the indulgence of his individual state or colony -- not to mention the new federal government -- to possess and use arms in order to defend himself is ludicrous. From the Minutemen of Concord and Lexington to the irregulars at Yorktown, members of the militias marched into battle with privately-owned weapons.
Lastly, consider the empirical arguments. The three D.C. ordinances at issue are of the broadest possible nature. According to the statute, a person is not legally able to own a handgun in D.C. at all and may have a long-gun -- even in one's home -- only if it is kept unloaded and disassembled (or bound with a trigger lock). The statute was passed in 1976. What have been the results?
Illegal guns continue to be widely available in the district; criminals have easy access to guns while law-abiding citizens do not. Cathy L. Lanier, Acting Chief of Police, Metropolitan Police Department, was quoted as follows: "Last year [2006], more than 2,600 illegal firearms were recovered in D.C., a 13% increase over 2005." Crime rose significantly after the gun ban went into effect. In the five years before the 1976 ban, the murder rate fell to 27 from 37 per 100,000. In the five years after it went into effect, the murder rate rose to 35. In fact, while murder rates have varied over time, during the 30 years since the ban, the murder rate has only once fallen below what it was in 1976.
This comports with my own personal experience. In almost 14 years as prosecutor and as head of the Homicide Unit of the Wayne County (Detroit) Prosecutor's Office, I never saw anyone charged with murder who had a license to legally carry a concealed weapon. Most people who want to possess guns are law-abiding and present no threat to others. Rather than the availability of weapons, my experience is that gun violence is driven by culture, police presence (or lack of same), and failures in the supervision of parolees and probationers.
Not only does history demonstrate that the Second Amendment is an individual right, but experience demonstrates that the broad ban on gun ownership in the District of Columbia has led to precisely the opposite effect from what was intended. For legal and historical reasons, and for the safety of the residents of our nation's capital, the Supreme Court should affirm an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Mr. Cox is the attorney general of Michigan.
 
TCB in TN writes:

Very nice, and in the WSJ no less. I am impressed.

--------------

The Wall Street Journal has, for many years, been more of a NEWSPAPER, a quite good one at that, than many realize. It's not simply stock and bond quotations.
 
07-290 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, ET AL. V. HELLER, DICK A.

The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted limited to the following question: Whether the following provisions, D.C. Code §§ 7-2502.02(a)(4), 22-4504(a), and 7-2507.02, violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes

"but who wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes"

I read this as saying the Court will address "keeping" arms but not "bearing" them. They seem to have shifted to the question of guns at home being legally operational rather than a real Second Amendment question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top