Surefire insanity
- Thread starter dave3006
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cratz2
Member
Well, went on a flashlight buying rampage about a year and a half ago... Found candlepowerforums.com After buying, using, owning and selling probably three dozen lights, I can recommend Streamlight TwinTasks as probably the most versatile lights available (both LED and xenon bulbs in the same light) and probably the best value... Esp the 2 123a light.
The Princeton Tec Surge is an 8xAA dive light that is probably about the brightest sub $50 light around... Lots of brightness and focus for a budget light.
I know the Surefires are night lights because I've used a few of them... If you can afford and are willing to buy the best, I see no reason to knock Surefire... But they should rarely be used in the same sentence as the words 'reasonable' or 'budget'.
The Princeton Tec Surge is an 8xAA dive light that is probably about the brightest sub $50 light around... Lots of brightness and focus for a budget light.
I know the Surefires are night lights because I've used a few of them... If you can afford and are willing to buy the best, I see no reason to knock Surefire... But they should rarely be used in the same sentence as the words 'reasonable' or 'budget'.
To compare flashlights including brightness and other factors check out www.flashlightreviews.com. I believe the Streamlight Scorpion that can be had for 25 bucks from botach tactical is brighter than most of the Surefires.
brad cook
jthuang
Member
I'll freely admit that Surefires aren't cheap. However, their premium price is backed up by their premium performance. There are a lot of outfits that survive on premium pricing and substandard performance (e.g. Bose); at least Surefire's products "walk the walk" for the jing that you are paying.
To be fair, I've had one instance of a Surefire failure. During a rifle class in 1999, my Surefire M500A blew a bulb during the night shoot. The light was basically fresh out of the box and as you all know, the M series is supposed to be shock-isolated (not shock-proof!). I was able to complete the night shoot with a spare bulb. Surefire said they had a bad batch of bulbs and immediately sent me a new one (they didn't even want the old one back). While this is one instance of a Surefire product failure (nothing is perfect, after all), the moral is to test your gear prior to using it "live". This failure happened during a training class so there was no harm.
BTW I got my M500A for $260, new. Back in the day before Surefire's new pricing strategy you could find deals if you looked hard enough. There was no need to pay $400 for that light when a little scrounging on the Internet would find you a deal.
To be fair, I've had one instance of a Surefire failure. During a rifle class in 1999, my Surefire M500A blew a bulb during the night shoot. The light was basically fresh out of the box and as you all know, the M series is supposed to be shock-isolated (not shock-proof!). I was able to complete the night shoot with a spare bulb. Surefire said they had a bad batch of bulbs and immediately sent me a new one (they didn't even want the old one back). While this is one instance of a Surefire product failure (nothing is perfect, after all), the moral is to test your gear prior to using it "live". This failure happened during a training class so there was no harm.
BTW I got my M500A for $260, new. Back in the day before Surefire's new pricing strategy you could find deals if you looked hard enough. There was no need to pay $400 for that light when a little scrounging on the Internet would find you a deal.
Sportcat
Member
I have 2 Surefire G2's, 1 E1E, 1 E2E, and weapon light on my 870.
I'm happy to pay Surefire's prices for quality, reliable, American-made (I'm pretty sure) products. Not to mention Surefire's superb customer service record.
I'm happy to pay Surefire's prices for quality, reliable, American-made (I'm pretty sure) products. Not to mention Surefire's superb customer service record.
G&R Tactical
Member
Well being a SF dealer I thought I would add my .02. SF lights are VERY pricey (even at the steep discounts that I offer). With that being said, their customer service is better than ANY other company that I stock. If you break a bulb all you have to do is call them up and they will replace it. Let's also not forget that they drop the bottem out of the 123A battery market! If it wasn't for them, you would still be paying $6 (per battery) for a Duracell (which isn't as good as the SF battery)!
I think people forget how much R&D cost these days. Someone has to invent these things and they continue to push the envelope. They are also pioneering some great inovations in the LED world.
While there are some companies that can compete with SOME of their hand held lights, NO ONE holds a LUMEN to their weaponlights!
G
www.gandrtactical.com
I think people forget how much R&D cost these days. Someone has to invent these things and they continue to push the envelope. They are also pioneering some great inovations in the LED world.
While there are some companies that can compete with SOME of their hand held lights, NO ONE holds a LUMEN to their weaponlights!
G
www.gandrtactical.com
fjolnirsson
Member
An update on my Surefire experience....
This thread got me thinking. When my Surefire stopped working, I put it on the shelf, meaning to get it fixed. I then forgot about it. That was 6 months ago. I emailed Surefire yesterday, asking for a Return Merchandise Authorization #.I expected to be charged for the cost of repair. Nope. They emailed me back, asked for my address and told me they would ship me a new bulb, free of charge.
Even if the new bulb breaks the same, Surefire gets top marks for their customer service!
This thread got me thinking. When my Surefire stopped working, I put it on the shelf, meaning to get it fixed. I then forgot about it. That was 6 months ago. I emailed Surefire yesterday, asking for a Return Merchandise Authorization #.I expected to be charged for the cost of repair. Nope. They emailed me back, asked for my address and told me they would ship me a new bulb, free of charge.
Even if the new bulb breaks the same, Surefire gets top marks for their customer service!
cerberus
member
I agree with G&R Tactical
I know that Surefire Lights are costly but with Surefire your not left out there holding a dead light when it's really needed. And buying them A123s at basic below cost from Surefire keeps everything in proper perspective. Every item in every Surefire light is designed to get the most light where it's needed and keep working when the going get tough. All mechanical machines fail at sometime in their useful lives. When a Surefire light fails you know your going to get if taken care of. You know Surefire will be there to help.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2396431
I know that Surefire Lights are costly but with Surefire your not left out there holding a dead light when it's really needed. And buying them A123s at basic below cost from Surefire keeps everything in proper perspective. Every item in every Surefire light is designed to get the most light where it's needed and keep working when the going get tough. All mechanical machines fail at sometime in their useful lives. When a Surefire light fails you know your going to get if taken care of. You know Surefire will be there to help.
http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=2396431
I think we may be talking about two different things here: weapon-mounted lights and flashlights.
As for the weapon-mounted lights, I don't own one so I won't comment, other than to say that if I decided to get one, I'd probably bite the bullet and get a Surefire.
But, as for the flashlights, Surefire has one affordable model, the G2 or G3 (I can't remember), which is a nice light for around $30 or so. Beyond that, their prices make no sense to me. There are several other product lines that offer 90% of the performance for around 20% of the price. Personally, I'd far rather have 4 or 5 excellent flashlights than one really excellent one, because even the really excellent ones fail sometimes. (Do some reading at Candlepower forums and you'll see what I mean, though some of the guys who spent $250 on the Surefires are, perhaps understandably, a little reluctant to admit to the problems.) Now, if you can afford the Surefire flashlights and you want one, more power to you. They're just not my cup of tea.
As for the weapon-mounted lights, I don't own one so I won't comment, other than to say that if I decided to get one, I'd probably bite the bullet and get a Surefire.
But, as for the flashlights, Surefire has one affordable model, the G2 or G3 (I can't remember), which is a nice light for around $30 or so. Beyond that, their prices make no sense to me. There are several other product lines that offer 90% of the performance for around 20% of the price. Personally, I'd far rather have 4 or 5 excellent flashlights than one really excellent one, because even the really excellent ones fail sometimes. (Do some reading at Candlepower forums and you'll see what I mean, though some of the guys who spent $250 on the Surefires are, perhaps understandably, a little reluctant to admit to the problems.) Now, if you can afford the Surefire flashlights and you want one, more power to you. They're just not my cup of tea.
Hawk
Member
I believe that, despite having purchased 5 SF's in the last 2 years, I won't be buying anymore.
There's a nasty rumor afoot that Surefire is coercing their dealers into advertising and selling all product for MSRP effective 7/1/04. Based on the prices I'm seeing on a couple of sites, this would appear to be true. LEO and military exempt, of course.
Mini-rant: Should this be true, Surefire may rest easy, secure in the knowledge that they'll never see another stinkin' nickel of my money. I just couldn't bring myself to support such trade-restraining, competition inhibiting, strong-arm, elitist ARROGANCE. In this, they will be privileged to join such luminaries as Reeve and Nightforce on my list.
Any SF dealers can set me straight if I'm misinformed on SF's policy.
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Edited to add this link which has an explanation of why, although distasteful, it isn't what it sounds like (price fixing).
There's a nasty rumor afoot that Surefire is coercing their dealers into advertising and selling all product for MSRP effective 7/1/04. Based on the prices I'm seeing on a couple of sites, this would appear to be true. LEO and military exempt, of course.
Mini-rant: Should this be true, Surefire may rest easy, secure in the knowledge that they'll never see another stinkin' nickel of my money. I just couldn't bring myself to support such trade-restraining, competition inhibiting, strong-arm, elitist ARROGANCE. In this, they will be privileged to join such luminaries as Reeve and Nightforce on my list.
Any SF dealers can set me straight if I'm misinformed on SF's policy.
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Edited to add this link which has an explanation of why, although distasteful, it isn't what it sounds like (price fixing).
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You are correct in that Surefire is changing their distribution/sales policies.
I'm not sure exactly what the changes are, but one can easily find out at CPF.
However, you are very incorrect in labeling their actions "trade-restraining, competition inhibiting, strong-arm, elitist ARROGANCE."
1) How do the actions of ONE manufacturer "restrain trade," and what does "trade-restraining" mean anyway?
2) Their actions in no way "inhibit competition." If anything, the fact that they are raising prices to MSRP is GOOD for their competition because there will be more people who are unable or unwilling to pay the higher prices and will give their business to SF's competitiors.
I agree that from what I know of what SF is going to do, it does not sound smart. However, I'm sure SF has people more knowledgeable than I working for them.
One must also take into consideration that SF is at the bleeding edge of illumination tool technology, and that innovation and R&D comes at a cost.
My $0.02.
Hawk
Member
My opinion is that competition between vendors is inhibited. This includes marketing flexibility. If I pay 100.00 for a flashlight and want to sell it for 1.89 as a loss leader, free as part of a bundle, or whatever marketing scheme my little head can concoct I should be able to do it.
Admittedly, I CAN do exactly that, and Surefire can then retailiate by not selling me another particle of product. It's their right to do so in a free market. It's my right to not like it and not buy any more product.
I also find the exemption of certain seqments of our society from the policy as somewhat elitist. Again, its their right to do it, it may even be the right thing to do, but I reserve the right to feel vague disquiet therefrom.
I also agree that it's one fine product. I just don't care for the attitude. IME, such tactics have typically been inspired by whining full price resellers. Whether this is smart marketing, taking care of your supply chain, or caving into whiners is a matter of perspective.
FWIW - I'm not proposing anybody follow suit - I doubt SF will be much troubled by my missing 500.00 or so retail dollars a year. I wasn't buying my stuff from the absolute lowest bidder anyway - but I mourn the loss of the option to do so.
Thanks for the reminder - I'd flat forgotten about CPF.
Admittedly, I CAN do exactly that, and Surefire can then retailiate by not selling me another particle of product. It's their right to do so in a free market. It's my right to not like it and not buy any more product.
I also find the exemption of certain seqments of our society from the policy as somewhat elitist. Again, its their right to do it, it may even be the right thing to do, but I reserve the right to feel vague disquiet therefrom.
Agreed 100% - however, assuming no change in unit count sold, there will be no change in Surefire's profits to pay for R&D. Their policy is only changing profit margins at the secondary market level. They're not, so far as I can gather, changing the price they charge their dealers.
I also agree that it's one fine product. I just don't care for the attitude. IME, such tactics have typically been inspired by whining full price resellers. Whether this is smart marketing, taking care of your supply chain, or caving into whiners is a matter of perspective.
FWIW - I'm not proposing anybody follow suit - I doubt SF will be much troubled by my missing 500.00 or so retail dollars a year. I wasn't buying my stuff from the absolute lowest bidder anyway - but I mourn the loss of the option to do so.
Thanks for the reminder - I'd flat forgotten about CPF.
Black Snowman
Member
I have a Streamlight TwinTask 2 cell lithium I've been extremely pleased with and it was a fraction the price of the equivilant Surefire. If I ever get a weapon light it will be a Streamlight.
Black Snowman
Member
I have a Streamlight TwinTask 2 cell lithium I've been extremely pleased with and it was a fraction the price of the equivilant Surefire. If I ever get a weapon light it will be a Streamlight.
I have told this story before on here, but when I bought my first Surefire light, it stopped working. I replaced the batteries and the bulb and it wouldn't work. I couldn't understand it. There isn't a whole lot to making a flashlight work, it couldn't be this big of a deal. I put it away for a few months and finally got around to calling Surefire. I told the woman the story and said it was broken, could I get it fixed ? She told me that she seriously doubted that it was broken. Now I can't duplicate the conversation in writing. But if you would have heard the womans voice on the phone, it impressed me. She was absolutely 100% confident in the quality of their products. She wasn't being arrogant. She honestly didn't believe the light COULD be broken.
And of course, she was right. It was pure operator error. I won't go into details, but when you go for a year getting 4-5 hours of sleep every OTHER day, you start doing some stupid stuff. This was one of them.
There have been very few times I have ever dealt with someone that had the conviction in her voice that this woman had. I was immediately a believer.
I am not interested in buying products that are 90% as good. I am not interested in products that are almost as good. You show me a product that all others are compared to, and that is what I want. In fact, instead of buying 4-5 decent flashlights rather than one good one: I will buy 4-5 of the good ones. Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.
And of course, she was right. It was pure operator error. I won't go into details, but when you go for a year getting 4-5 hours of sleep every OTHER day, you start doing some stupid stuff. This was one of them.
There have been very few times I have ever dealt with someone that had the conviction in her voice that this woman had. I was immediately a believer.
I am not interested in buying products that are 90% as good. I am not interested in products that are almost as good. You show me a product that all others are compared to, and that is what I want. In fact, instead of buying 4-5 decent flashlights rather than one good one: I will buy 4-5 of the good ones. Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.
cerberus
member
I agree
I just keep thinking how much is ones life really worth. To some it might be just worth the price they pay.
I just keep thinking how much is ones life really worth. To some it might be just worth the price they pay.
And I think that's an irrelevant statement every time I hear it in reference to Surefires. Yes, Surefires are AWESOME lights but I'm not going to die because I use a Streamlight or a Brinkmann to light up a BG instead of a Surefire. Those lights are going to work too and if I die it's not going to be because I had one or another brand of flashlight that I've used plenty and that I know is going to work.
Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine when someone throws that sentiment out because someone else didn't buy the most expensive gear. Believe it or not it's possible to find gear that works every time, works well and that is not the most expensive in it's class.
brad cook
cerberus
member
I am just happy
We live in a free Country so we can pick what we want to buy and use. I am also happy we are posting on a free thinking forum run by free thinking people who don't lock down a thread they disagree with like the GlockTalk forum and the 1911 forum. Now back to the subject of Surefire flashlights I just happen to cast my lot with Surefire others can do as they see fit. And to you who don't pick Surefire I say "Goodluck"
We live in a free Country so we can pick what we want to buy and use. I am also happy we are posting on a free thinking forum run by free thinking people who don't lock down a thread they disagree with like the GlockTalk forum and the 1911 forum. Now back to the subject of Surefire flashlights I just happen to cast my lot with Surefire others can do as they see fit. And to you who don't pick Surefire I say "Goodluck"
jacketch
Member
I went with SureFire flashlight and after my "bad luck" with it I got a Scorpion.
I purchased a Surefire G2 and quickly found out where the name Sure Fire came from. I had the flashlight in my jacket pocket and when I squatted down one day the light went on (due to the crappy switch set-up). Not knowing the light was on, I remainrd in the same position until I smelled something and noticed smoke rising from my jacket pocket.
From my vantage point the flashlight was not a real quality product, rather it was a hazard to use. I think they should be recalled.
I bought a Streamlight Scorpion and haven't looked back.
I purchased a Surefire G2 and quickly found out where the name Sure Fire came from. I had the flashlight in my jacket pocket and when I squatted down one day the light went on (due to the crappy switch set-up). Not knowing the light was on, I remainrd in the same position until I smelled something and noticed smoke rising from my jacket pocket.
From my vantage point the flashlight was not a real quality product, rather it was a hazard to use. I think they should be recalled.
I bought a Streamlight Scorpion and haven't looked back.
VaughnT
Member
Well, I have a G2 Nitrolon and 6P. Both are excellent lights in terms of size and construction, as well as light output. I would say that both are priced fairly considering the quality that you get.
Their "combat" lights are rather comical to me. I was going to buy the new M3 with the strike bezel, but I got to thinking about that Roger's ring and the fancy cooling fins, and couldn't help but wonder if I was paying for unnecessary machining. The Roger's technique isn't the best, not by a longshot, and it sure isn't natural, so why do I need a haft that's machined for that ring and thus precluded from using a lot of holsters/carriers? And why isn't the strike bezel being offered for the less expensive and more popular 6P or G2?
Having said all that, I would have to say that my Pelican M6 LED light is a step behind Surefire in terms of design, though it is a quality light that throws a good beam. The only problem I have is with the switch, which is less than positive. Of course, for the cost, I also got a belt pouch and two batteries.
Do I need any more flashlights? Yea, I'd like to have some more G2's for the car and around the house, but any lithium-powered light will do for these non-tactical lights: I'm interested in the long battery life more than anything else.
Surefire makes a good product and is a master of self-promotion. But only you can decide where your money gets spent.
Their "combat" lights are rather comical to me. I was going to buy the new M3 with the strike bezel, but I got to thinking about that Roger's ring and the fancy cooling fins, and couldn't help but wonder if I was paying for unnecessary machining. The Roger's technique isn't the best, not by a longshot, and it sure isn't natural, so why do I need a haft that's machined for that ring and thus precluded from using a lot of holsters/carriers? And why isn't the strike bezel being offered for the less expensive and more popular 6P or G2?
Having said all that, I would have to say that my Pelican M6 LED light is a step behind Surefire in terms of design, though it is a quality light that throws a good beam. The only problem I have is with the switch, which is less than positive. Of course, for the cost, I also got a belt pouch and two batteries.
Do I need any more flashlights? Yea, I'd like to have some more G2's for the car and around the house, but any lithium-powered light will do for these non-tactical lights: I'm interested in the long battery life more than anything else.
Surefire makes a good product and is a master of self-promotion. But only you can decide where your money gets spent.
Right
One of the reasons the Surefire G2 is so much cheaper than the rest of the product line is because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles. One of which is the lock out tail cap. I bought one knowing it didn't have a lock out tail cap and rather than carrying it in my pocket, I bought a kydex holster for my belt. I carry it every day at work, and use it every day at work. Since I use a flashlight on the job, all the time, I find carrying it in a proper holster is a much better idea than carrying it in my pocket.
On the other hand, I have an E1 Executive that does have a lock out tail cap. This is the one that I carry in my pocket as a back up/alternative flashlight. It isn't nearly as bright as the G2 which for my job, is sometimes a plus. It also has a clip that allows me to attach the light to my cap giving me light right where I look while at the same time, leaves both hands free.
I find that both lights are a terrific asset to me and I wouldn't go without them.
One of the reasons the Surefire G2 is so much cheaper than the rest of the product line is because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles. One of which is the lock out tail cap. I bought one knowing it didn't have a lock out tail cap and rather than carrying it in my pocket, I bought a kydex holster for my belt. I carry it every day at work, and use it every day at work. Since I use a flashlight on the job, all the time, I find carrying it in a proper holster is a much better idea than carrying it in my pocket.
On the other hand, I have an E1 Executive that does have a lock out tail cap. This is the one that I carry in my pocket as a back up/alternative flashlight. It isn't nearly as bright as the G2 which for my job, is sometimes a plus. It also has a clip that allows me to attach the light to my cap giving me light right where I look while at the same time, leaves both hands free.
I find that both lights are a terrific asset to me and I wouldn't go without them.
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