Surplus 7x62 54R Troubles

[Noah]

After opening a 300 round tin of 7.62 54R of an unknown origin and date, I decided to try it and see if it worked, having been warned but the friend who gave it to me that some rounds may hang a bit after pulling the trigger.

The first shot did not fire. After waiting a while, I ejected and safely disposed of the round.

The second fired normally, no problems.

The third fired, but I was hit in the face by something hot, felt like sparks or powder, but fortunately it only hurt a bit and left no marks/ burns. The chamber was smoking like mad, and when I opened the bolt I discovered that the bolt head was blackened and smoking. An inspection of the spent cartridge revealed that the primer had exploded out the rear, or something. It was entirely black where the primer should have been.

At this point I locked the gun and ammo back up, having determined that ammo unsafe to shoot. I've shot the gun fine with other ammunition with no trouble.

The gun was a 1915-made model 1891 Nagant, full lenth barrel, not the M91/30.

The ammunition was in a surplus lead-sealed turn and the back of the cartridge reads:

/""*""\
3 O 10
\_53_/

I have assumed that the whole tin has bad primer, probably too old, and should not be shot. Any advice?

 

[rule303]

The ammo should be ok if it came out of a sealed tin. But when dealing with surplus ammo manufactured in an eastern european communist country 60 years ago, anything is possible. Is this the yellow tipped/brass cased heavy ball ammo? That particular ammo seems to be rather hot, I have seen a few split cases and pierced primers from it. First, I would get the headspace checked on your rifle, since that can cause both weak firing pin hits, and blown primers. Also check for excessive pitting around the firing pin channel on the bolt head. IMO the old dragoon rifles are best shot with new commercial ammo, or modest reloads. Shoot the cheap surplus in the dime a dozen 91-30's.

 

[NCsmitty]

The ammo is Bulgarian light ball, copper case and of course made in 1953. It's age may be a factor, but if it's clean, it may just be the combo of your rifle and that ammo.
rule303 pretty much summed it up.
If your rifle works well with other ammo, then stick with it.


NCsmitty

 

[morcey2]

It's because you have a crappy old rifle. I'm nice enough that I'll pay the shipping for the ammo and the gun to take it off your hands.

Also check the inside of the bolt body and make sure that the firing pin isn't getting slowed or binding. One of my Finn captures had tons of crap in the bolt body/head.

Matt

 

[Noah]

Thanks for the replies. Especially now, because of it's black residue coating following the primer explosion, I'm going to give the bolt a good dis-assembly and cleaning.

I'll give it another try when I can, but this tin represents 3/4 of my ammunition supply ATM and I'd be a little disappointed if it can't handle it. However, I wouldn't be too surprised if it couldn't. After all, it is well worn and used, not to mention over 96 years old. It's missing the cleaning rod (anyone know where I can get a cheap M91 one?), the crown has no finish remaining, the last 3/4" of the muzzle has no rifling, and the stock is 1/2 wood and 1/2 grime hardened over the wood.

However, I can't complain, as it shoots great at the distances I am able to shoot at (not over 40-50 yards), and it was a free

All I've shot from it is some form of light ball with a green lacquered casing, with 0 misfires/ explosions, ect, prior to this. I'm out of that, and next time I have a chance I'll also try my modern commercial light ammo in addition to the old surplus.

 

[Noah]

More details on the exact ammunition:

What I've shot so far, received with the gun:

/"oxn"\
l O l
\_99_/

Newer looking ammunition, bought at a gun store, not yet shot, red lines at neck and base, pointed silver tip:

/"188"\
l O l
\_74_/

Based on some research of my own, change "modern commercial light ammo" to "you tell me what it is but it looks better"

 

[morcey2]

The missing rifling is a counterbore and was standard practice with lots of mosins when they were rearsenalled. Cleaning rods:

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=283&idcategory=17

Not cheap, but reasonable.

Matt

 

[HEAVY METAL 1]

Even if the questionable ammo turns out to be no good, don't toss it out, rather pull the bullets as they can be used in reloads.

 

[Noah]

I've never done any self reloading and have zero equipment to do so....

Thanks for the link to the rod, however that is out of my budget. Although I intend to keep the rifle in it's original configuration, I don't wish to spend 1/2 it's value to add what would be used only to make it prettier. Looking around online, I'm just a bit jealous of the M91/30 owners, as accessories are much easier to come by. However, I like the more-open sights on the 1891 model much more than the post-and-globe, particularly the strength of the font sight and the lines of the rear sight.

A few more things:

1. What M91/30 or carbine accessories would be compatible with the Dragoon model? Particularly, slings/ bayonets?

2. When shooting at an empty coffee can with a dirt backstop from ~40 yards, I checked the target and was quite surprised by what I found. Sitting in the can was the steel core of a bullet, with no lead/ jacket in sight. Any clue what happened?

3. Nothing important, but I was surprised again when my father shot the same can. After protesting when I loaded a full clip for him, saying he only wanted to shoot a couple rounds, he hit the can ( or perhaps just under it?) after shooting very low his first try. It proceeded to launch 70-100 feet into the air, beginning to fall just after clearing the height of a nearby ash tree, and landed over 20 yards away from our backstop. After a slight pause, he shot off the last three rounds with a grin... I found it pretty amusing.

 

[wrench]

I'm sure you know this, but I'm going to say it anyway-when you took the bolt apart, and put it back together, you used the little tool to set firing pin protrusion, right?
Too much firing pin could pop a primer.
Bulgarian light ball has been OK ammo to me, no problems yet.

 

[Noah]

I can't that I did, know how, or have the little tool to do it. How is it done, and can it be done w/o the special tool?

 

[nathan]

when i get a new gun be it modern or surplus, i disassemble them completely and clean every little part. I function test and get to know it very well before even going to the range. I read all about it and get the best info. And most of all check the ammo for cracks and integrity .

 

[wrench]

Here's a link for you, Noah. Scroll down to 'reassembly', and they talk about setting firing pin protrusion.
Basically, with the bolt out of the rifle and decocked, the firing pin should protrude from the bolt face at least .075", but not more than .095"
In addition, the index mark across the back of the firing pin and the cocking piece needs to be aligned.
If you don't have the mosin bolt tool, you could probably fudge it with a dial caliper or some such measuring tool.
Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinDisassembly.htm

 

[harmon rabb]

I'm sure you know this, but I'm going to say it anyway-when you took the bolt apart, and put it back together, you used the little tool to set firing pin protrusion, right?
Too much firing pin could pop a primer.
Bulgarian light ball has been OK ammo to me, no problems yet.

This is what I'm thinking too. Firing pin sticking too far out is popping the primers.

 

[Noah]

Thanks for the link, I found all of the details I needed about 2/3 of the way down. I'm sure I can find all the tools I need. After this I'll Take the bolt out and unsure that everything is set correctly.

My cleaning of the rifle last night revealed that the the pin was not aligned with the marks on the end of the cocking knob, at the least.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Noah]

I suppose it may also be relevant that the bolt is the only part of my rifle that doesn't have a matching serial number.

 

[Noah]

I took out the bolt, decocked it, and measured the firing pin protrusion to be in the area of 0.125 inches. After trying a few different screwdrivers and finding one slim enough to fit into the back of the bolt, I adjusted it to about 0.085". Thanks for the answers, hopefully it will soot the ammunition more reliably now, hopefully with enough reliability that I'd feel safe shooting the tin of it.

 

[Noah]

I shot the remaining seven rounds of the ten round package, with zero issues. The problem appears to solved. Time and more shooting will tell.

Thank you Wrench. Had you not deduced it to be a firing pin issue, I probably would have abandoned 75% of my ammunition and kept shooting the rest with a firing pin almost 2 times as far forward as it should have been.

I may be wrong, but the reason that the firing pin was too far forward may be because, before I realized that I could hold onto the rear of the bolt, pull the trigger, and ease it back myself, I would dry fire the gun after every finished clip and after testing the action after oiling/cleaning it. I can see the rapid motion forward with no primer cap to stop it causing to inch (well, thousandth of an inch) forward.

 

[wrench]

You're very welcome, Noah.
Check out over here...
http://forums.gunboards.com/
Where a lot of the Mosin nuts hang out

 

[vellocet]

hey noah. did you say 1915? You know, the metal they used in those things was not up to the same standards as in later rifles. If you really enjoy shooting mosins, as we all do, you might want to invest 100 bills or so in a newer model, and stash the 1915. If you want to shoot surplus you should get a newer rifle. Good luck.

 

[morcey2]

hey noah. did you say 1915? You know, the metal they used in those things was not up to the same standards as in later rifles. If you really enjoy shooting mosins, as we all do, you might want to invest 100 bills or so in a newer model, and stash the 1915. If you want to shoot surplus you should get a newer rifle. Good luck.

The only verified cases of questionable metallurgy have been 1917-1918 rifles made during late WWI and the early part of the revolution. If you look at the receivers that the Finns 'repurposed', you won't find too many of those years, but everything else all the way back to 1891.

Matt

 

[vellocet]

Get another rifle if you have the money, Noah.

 

[35 Whelen]

This is known as a pierced primer as someone pointed out. Glad you didn't abandon that ammo!

You know, the metal they used in those things was not up to the same standards as in later rifles.

Unless you can verify this, and I'm betting you can't, it'll be filed as another unbased, internet rumor in my book.

35W

 

[Noah]

Let me phrase it this way: If I don't need another rifle, I can't afford it

Yes, I said 1915. If I can read the worn markings on the receiver correctly and decipher them correctly via 76254R.net, it was made in the Tula plant.