Surplus M14s

[Beagle-zebub]

the govt ordered them destroyed or shipped overseas but we the tax payer payed for them.

Is there evidence of this destruction?

 

[Zoogster]

Is there evidence of this destruction?

Yes those would be military records of the de-milled firearms.



Without spending a lot of time looking up the information I already proved to myself when I learned it...I did a quick search.

Here is a guy that seems to have some pretty hard numbers he is citing and which sound about right as of 2007, since then I would venture some additional ones have been obtained from the foreign sources they were originally given to:

http://www.suite101.com/blog/themadcossack/what_happened_to_the_m14_rifle

The M14 was the standard service rifle of the US military for a couple years. They were produced from July 1959 to June 1964. Records show that some 1,380,358 M14 rifles were made. The M16 was ordered as a replacement for the brand new M14 by direction of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara starting in 1966. By 1970 the barley used weapon had been largely replaced in active duty. The National Guard discontinued using the weapon by 1980. No less than 479,367 M14 rifles were destroyed in 1993-94 and an unknown number were de-milled (cut with a blowtorch and welded shut) then transferred to JROTC units as drill weapons. Over 321,905 surplus arms were exported to foreign militaries under the Excess Defense Articles program and others. These were largely transferred abroad to Greece, Israel, the Philippines, South Vietnam, Taiwan, Turkey, Venezuela, Columbia, Iceland (which doesn’t have a military), and Lebanon in the 1970s and 1980s and the new Baltic countries of Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia in the 1990's.

Today the US military has less than 10% of the original M14 production left in its depots. The navy has replaced most of the 2000 M14s in their inventory with M16s just this year but plans to keep a couple M-14 rifles on board each ship to shoot lines (ropes). The Air Force has 3,500 M-14s listed in their arsenals. Most of these are for base honor guards but a few do see service with deployed EOD units to blow up things from a distance.

The US Army still has 22,660 of the rifles in use and another 87,462 of all grades in storage. The Rock Island Arsenal converted 1,435 M14 National Match variant rifles to M21 sniper rifles with ART scopes in 1969. The M21 was the Army's dedicated sniper rifle until 1988 when it was replaced by the M24 bolt action rifle (based on the Remington 700). The M14 was dusted off again during the Global War on Terrorism to serve again in a sniper role. A number of the weapons in active issue are the designated marksmen rifles (DMR). These rifles are given to platoon-level marksmen who have taken a two week course in battlefield long range fire. This concept has been used by the Warsaw Pact since the end of World War Two but is new to the US Army. This is different from the two man scout sniper teams (aka ‘real snipers’) popularized since Vietnam. The DMR rifle has been equipped with either a Leupold or Unertl ten power scope. The Marines also issue no less than 381 of these DMRs.

Besides the Corps of Cadets at West Point, Annapolis and the Air Force Academy, the 3rd United States Infantry Regiment (The Old Guard) keepers of Arlington National Cemetery is the sole remaining regular United States Army combat field unit where the M14 is still issued as the standard rifle.

So according to this 479,367 were destroyed by Clinton, with an additional unknown number de-milled and turned into training props.

321,905 were exported.

Adding all listed military branch totals together, including the m21 sniper and DCM marksman variants you can get a rough total, of course some of those in storage are probably more suitable as parts than complete serviceable rifles.

Huge stockpiles of civilian legal 1911 US GI pistols were similarly destroyed at the same time to also prevent them from ever being transferred to civilians.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Here is another quick source.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/sas/publications/co_publi_pdf/2004/2004-OSCE-full_report.pdf

go to page 19

 

[Zoogster]

Aww how could you cite an OSCE report.

That document covers the very stated goal of:

“reduce the global surplus of small arms, coupled with proper management and security of national stockpiles"

Combating the Proliferation of SALW

(small arms and light weapons, ie guns)

Your guns are small arms. They want to reduce global ownership of firearms, and create and support international treaties aimed at strengthening gun control and disarming as many civilians as possible, while destroying extra weapons so they do not end up outside military and police hands.

Of course the US government is one of the bigger supporters of global gun control.



US SALW policies should be noted for reference, and these policies are being advanced at all times, regardless of which party is in office.

Here is some of the progress while republicans and Bush controlled the government:

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2006/July/20060721121333xenotlaw5.091494e-02.html

Costner listed four pillars of U.S. policy on arms trafficking: strict import and export laws and certification regulations, destruction of surplus and obsolete SALW, increased security for existing national weapons stockpiles, and the systematic marking and tracing of SALW.

Even the US government wants all surplus Small Arms and Light Weapons destroyed in order to prevent them from ever going to civilians.

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Sorry to post that source, but I thought it might be the only source he believed.

 

[CA2005]

If there are any to be had, I would rather they go to the military for now...they need them more than I do. My M1A is fine.

 

[Zoogster]

Sorry to post that source, but I thought it might be the only source he believed.

Well it gives the same total of m14 rifles destroyed as the article I cited on page 18 of the report and seems to be much more accurate than many anti-gun sources at least :

Initially, the US Armed Forces destroyed large quantities of these newly surplus weapons, including 479,367 MI4 rifles in 1993–94 and roughly 350,000M16A1 rifles

They actively track known firearms of many nations' military forces to keep them from going to civilians and other undesirables as evidenced by their interest in estimated total of US military totals of all firearms:

Table 1: Total US military firearms, by service, 2001
Air Force 260,000*
Army 1,608,000*
Coast Guard 20,268*
Navy (includes Marines) 800,000*
Total 2,688,268*
Total firearms per uniformed member 1.05
*Estimated
Source: Small Arms Survey 2002, Table 2.12

A very good report from a very anti-gun source that wishes to see all civilians in the world disarmed.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

Man, I really, really hate those people.

 

[XD9GUY]

After reading this, I am wondering how many semi-auto M-14's were made in the 60's and what happened to them. I took basic training in '66 at Ft. Campbell, KY and every training unit there used only semi-auto M-14's. We were told that the only fully autos were in Vietnam. Are you guys saying wild Bill destroy the semi-autos also?? OUCH!

 

[HorseSoldier]

I don't think there's any difference between the receivers on the select fire ones and the semi-auto version you trained on, only had the switch removed.

 

[52grain]

I am not seeing how a mere mortal could shoot a 7.62 caliber rifle in full auto or burst mode off hand. It seems like the recoil would be too much. Maybe some of the veterans from the 60s have some experience?

 

[HorseSoldier]

I've run a decent number of full auto rounds through the StG-58s we had for fam fire on FAL type rifles -- standing and other unsupported positions, pretty useless except maybe at really point blank ranges. From the prone with that integral bipod kicked out it's pretty easy to put 2-3 round bursts onto torso sized targets out to a respectable range, but the gun gets real hot real fast.

Always wanted to try putting a modern muzzle brake on one of them and give it a go with that, but never got around to it.

 

[ol' scratch]

What about the Norincos?

On occasion, I find a Norinco at a gun show. I know they are reported to have soft bolts (or was that the Polytech?), but I have heard the receivers were forged. The lowest price I have found on a Norinco was $900. It seemed high at the time because I could get a used M1A for $850. That was a few years back. My thought was to check the bolt, shoot it until I need to replace parts and replace them with USGI. Are the Polytechs cast or forged?

 

[Bart B.]

From what I remember, the M14NM (non full auto version) made by TRW is the one Springfield Armory copied to make their M1A receivers. This is the one most of the armed service rifle teams used in competition. TRW made virtually all of them and the military folks loved them.

Seems TRW decided to honor their M14NM program manager so they gave him a presentation grade version complete with high-grade walnut wood, perfect deep blue shiny metal and a neat plaque on its buttstock. Very high value was placed on it.

Then, somehow, the ATF got word that some "civilian" had an "M14" rifle. The ATF decided to confiscate it, went into his house and took it away. Much nasty things happened as the ATF could/would not admit they messed up somehow and the M14NM was in fact a semiauto rifle only; could not be fit the full-auto parts.

 

[XD9GUY]

In basic training, the Drill Sgt at Ft. Campbell, KY (Nov '66) did a little demo our first day at the range to show how little recoil the M-14 had by putting the butt of the rifle against his bare forehead and pulled the trigger. It kicked up, not back. No lie.

 

[Orlando]

He must have had a real thick skull because they do have recoil!

 

[X - Man]

Polytech M-14s have a forged receiver. A FEW of the early imports had a bolt hardness problem. Most do not. Makes for a fine rebuild project. Check out " http://www.warbirdcustomguns.com ". It takes a skilled gunsmith to fit a USGI bolt to a Polytech.

 

[ol' scratch]

In basic training, the Drill Sgt at Ft. Campbell, KY (Nov '66) did a little demo our first day at the range to show how little recoil the M-14 had by putting the butt of the rifle against his bare forehead and pulled the trigger. It kicked up, not back. No lie.

My father-in-law tells the same story.

 

[Orlando]

I'll supply the M1A and ammo if you can find someone dumb enough to try it.

 

[NavyEngineer]

Navy ships still carry a few - most were traded for M16A2s a 3-4 years ago, but many remain in service in the fleet. I've never seen the automatic selector switch installed on one in Navy use, however.

 

[61chalk]

Putting a M14 to the forehead an firing full auto.....love to see that....maybe thats
where the Army term..."Bonehead" came from?

 

[Visionz45]

We have two Winchester M14's w/selectors as drill rifles at my USMCR unit. They have chincy birch stocks and are welded tighter than a virgin. If someone ever decided to throw them away like they did a huge box of NFA parts Id go dumpster diving.

 

[Shung]

So according to this 479,367 were destroyed by Clinton

He should be spanked once for every one of them destroyed ! And I am being polite...