Friend Wants to Buy AR-15: Need Help!
- Thread starter Blain
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The .223 round is already pretty lethal, a 1:14 would just make it less accurate. Little spinning buzz saws aint the most aerodynamic things in the world. 
If you want that effect look into the AK74 (5.45x39) which is stable in flight but exhibits a dum dum characteristic when contact with soft tissue is made.
If you want that effect look into the AK74 (5.45x39) which is stable in flight but exhibits a dum dum characteristic when contact with soft tissue is made.
The concept of having a bullet tumble on impact is acheived by the Russians by having a void in the bullet. Appearently the accuracy is not effected but upon impact the bullet tumbles. Of course the easy way to make the bullet more lethal is to simply use softpoint bullets.
One of the beautiful things about the M16/AR15 rifle is it's superb accuracy. Something I would never intentionally do is to decrease the accuracy. Shot placement is the key to speeding up the lethal effect of a bullet. Good bullet performance is second, but also important. I am no scholor of military bullets, but it seems to me that the military has to use bullets that are very versitile which means that for any one thing, they are lacking. For example the military seems to need more penetration to shoot through flack vests, barriers, and light armor. This means that you can't have an expanding bullet. But, if you have a bullet that shoots through all that stuff, it won't work as well on human targets; it will over penetrate and not expand. As civilians, we don't need to worry about all that. We can shoot whatever bullet we want. We can shoot very light jacketed varmint bullets that completely come apart in the target. We can use softpoints that expand in the target. Or we can use FMJ/AP/or military ball with much better penetration.
One of the beautiful things about the M16/AR15 rifle is it's superb accuracy. Something I would never intentionally do is to decrease the accuracy. Shot placement is the key to speeding up the lethal effect of a bullet. Good bullet performance is second, but also important. I am no scholor of military bullets, but it seems to me that the military has to use bullets that are very versitile which means that for any one thing, they are lacking. For example the military seems to need more penetration to shoot through flack vests, barriers, and light armor. This means that you can't have an expanding bullet. But, if you have a bullet that shoots through all that stuff, it won't work as well on human targets; it will over penetrate and not expand. As civilians, we don't need to worry about all that. We can shoot whatever bullet we want. We can shoot very light jacketed varmint bullets that completely come apart in the target. We can use softpoints that expand in the target. Or we can use FMJ/AP/or military ball with much better penetration.
the 1:14 twists effect on lethaliity was an erroneous theory. All bullets stop spining guickly after entering flesh and become unstable. Most rifle bullets then yaw and flip end over end. The .223 bullet then tends to break at the cannelure and fragment which teans at the walls of the temporary cavity turning it into a permanent cavity. No need to sacrifice acccuracy for lethality. Plus if you go to the 62 grain or higher bullets you probably won't stabilize the bullet properly with a 1:14.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
62 grain won't stabilize in a 1:12 barrel at 100yds. It sure won't stabilize in a 1:14 barrel - which is rarer than hens teeth and doesn't offer any enhanced terminal ballistics anyway.
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
Poodleshooter
Member
1-14" twist is only useful if you wish to shoot a steady diet of 35-50gr varmint bullets at high velocity. It's too specific, and not nearly as versatile as say a 1-10 or 1-9" twist.
Well, my friend and I stopped back at the shop today. The news of increased terrorist alerts and tensions finally got to him. He knew that he needed the gun ASAP! So we went to the shop and he bought the 14.5" barrel version with the AK muzzle break. In 7 days he will be able to actually take it home (stupid waiting period). He seems to be very excited though, as he should be. I, for one, am very proud of him.
Now all he needs to do is to buy some magazines and ammo. What places do you guys recommend for buying ammo? Who has the best deals and so forth.
Now all he needs to do is to buy some magazines and ammo. What places do you guys recommend for buying ammo? Who has the best deals and so forth.
How is Silver Bear .223? $50 for 500 rounds seems like a bargin!
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/_223.html
I also found this page with surplus ammo prices on it.
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/pricelist_ammo.htm#223
Anyone know which ammo type to recommend? What is best out of a 14.5" barrel, best for putting a man down?
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/_223.html
I also found this page with surplus ammo prices on it.
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/pricelist_ammo.htm#223
Anyone know which ammo type to recommend? What is best out of a 14.5" barrel, best for putting a man down?
Blain, congratulate your friend for us, and welcome him to a long, proud list of members in the 'Black Rifle' club.
For LOADS of great info, try:
www.ar15.com
Surplus and Russian ammo is alright for plinking and practice, but for serious SHTF engagements, you're gonna want the 'real deal'. For more information than you'll ever want to know about ammunition:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
I also have permission from the author for a PDF version, that's formatted for printing. It makes for a great reference booklet.
As a general rule of thumb, when it comes to life-support equipment, you don't want to be cheap. There's no medal for second place in survival, and if you're dead, he won't be able to spend the money he saved on quality firearms or equipment. If you have a $50 life, then buy $50 ammo.
BUY IT ONCE, BUY IT RIGHT.
For LOADS of great info, try:
www.ar15.com
Surplus and Russian ammo is alright for plinking and practice, but for serious SHTF engagements, you're gonna want the 'real deal'. For more information than you'll ever want to know about ammunition:
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/
I also have permission from the author for a PDF version, that's formatted for printing. It makes for a great reference booklet.
As a general rule of thumb, when it comes to life-support equipment, you don't want to be cheap. There's no medal for second place in survival, and if you're dead, he won't be able to spend the money he saved on quality firearms or equipment. If you have a $50 life, then buy $50 ammo.
BUY IT ONCE, BUY IT RIGHT.
Thanks for that ammo site, GREAT info. Ok so what I have found so far is that he wants the 55 grain 193 ball ammo as it fragments at a longer range (out to 110 yards) as opposed to the M855 ball.
Is this a good brand/price for 1000 rounds of M193?
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Ammo/A020.1.htm
$156.00/1,000 rounds.
Mfg: Olympic, Greece
Date: 2001
Caliber: .223 Rem.
Bullet Type: 55 gr. M193 Ball (FMJ)
Primer: Boxer, Non-corrosive
Box Quan: 20
Case Quan: 1000
Notes: Commercial Ammunition
Item # A020.1
Is this a good brand/price for 1000 rounds of M193?
http://www.ammunitionstore.com/Images/Ammo/A020.1.htm
$156.00/1,000 rounds.
Mfg: Olympic, Greece
Date: 2001
Caliber: .223 Rem.
Bullet Type: 55 gr. M193 Ball (FMJ)
Primer: Boxer, Non-corrosive
Box Quan: 20
Case Quan: 1000
Notes: Commercial Ammunition
Item # A020.1
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Check out the ammunition forum at AR15.com. There have been several problems reported with Olympic ammo.
You can get M193 ammo manufactured at the same Lake City plant that manufactures U.S. military ammunition for $199/1000. I wouldn't take the chance with the Greek ammo for only $40 less.
You can get M193 ammo manufactured at the same Lake City plant that manufactures U.S. military ammunition for $199/1000. I wouldn't take the chance with the Greek ammo for only $40 less.
I am not sure if you are looking for cheap ammo or you want mil-surp ammo for some reason. I just bought a case of Winchester white box for $179/case. I also bought two cases of PMC for less than that. I bought this stuff for the carbine class at Gunsite. I normally shoot Wolf at $97/case. Have shot several cases of it and have had exactly zero problems with it. If someone tells you not to shoot Wolf, ask two questions; A) Have you ever personally shot it ? B) Describe exactly the problems you had with it. Of course specify from the beginning that you are not interested in heresay, rumor, or speculation.
Blane, I'm with Bart on this one. Why are we again talking about saving money?!?!? 
Is that the epitaph he wants on his headstone? "Here Lies ___, saved $40 on Ammo by buying Olympic."
Would you want to save money on a cheap parachute?
Would you want to save money on factory second seatbelts?
Would you want to save money on a brain surgeon that graduated last in his class, and charges less?
I've heard (anecdotal) that the Greek/Olympic ammo is corrosive. My firsthand knowledge is that my partner bought 45ACP Olympic, and had more duds, FTF and FTE's than any other. He felt it was totally unreliable, and wouldn't ever buy it again, not even for practice.
Hey, man... it's his money, he can do whatever he wants, but the guy just got one of the finest firearms known to mankind... and now he's skimping on ammo for SELF DEFENSE. Whassup with that?
All due respect, but maybe he should put that money he's saving toward a good therapist, because he needs to get his head screwed on straight.
Is that the epitaph he wants on his headstone? "Here Lies ___, saved $40 on Ammo by buying Olympic."
Would you want to save money on a cheap parachute?
Would you want to save money on factory second seatbelts?
Would you want to save money on a brain surgeon that graduated last in his class, and charges less?
I've heard (anecdotal) that the Greek/Olympic ammo is corrosive. My firsthand knowledge is that my partner bought 45ACP Olympic, and had more duds, FTF and FTE's than any other. He felt it was totally unreliable, and wouldn't ever buy it again, not even for practice.
Hey, man... it's his money, he can do whatever he wants, but the guy just got one of the finest firearms known to mankind... and now he's skimping on ammo for SELF DEFENSE. Whassup with that?
All due respect, but maybe he should put that money he's saving toward a good therapist, because he needs to get his head screwed on straight.
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Blane, FYI, if it's just plinking ammo you're after, I'd recommend the Swiss GP90 from Ammoman. It's about $200/case, but comes packaged in a gorgeous, brand new ammo box. I have also shot the SilverBear HP, and haven't had a problem... but then again, I'm not ready to trust my life to it, either.
www.ammoman.com
www.ammoman.com
Ammo man seems way too expensive.
Wow guys, I'm surprised! .223 surplus cost even more than .308 surplus!
All I know is that we need M193 ammo. It must be that type as it produces the best wounding/damage traits for the rifle. If anyone can show us a link for that lake city ammo or another good source of M193 we would much appreciate it, thanks!
Also, how many mags would you recommend he start out with? 5?
Wow guys, I'm surprised! .223 surplus cost even more than .308 surplus!
All I know is that we need M193 ammo. It must be that type as it produces the best wounding/damage traits for the rifle. If anyone can show us a link for that lake city ammo or another good source of M193 we would much appreciate it, thanks!
Also, how many mags would you recommend he start out with? 5?
Blain, I think I am beating a dead horse here, but at the risk of being obnoxious: GI ball ammo will not produce the best wounding/damage traits for the rifle. If that is what you want, you need civilian softpoint ammo. It is also cheaper.
I would go with six mags since this is the number that fits into two GI mag pouches. Or maybe 7 since you want one in the rifle also. Tell him to buy a couple every payday.
I would go with six mags since this is the number that fits into two GI mag pouches. Or maybe 7 since you want one in the rifle also. Tell him to buy a couple every payday.
Hmmm, I don't mean to refute what you're saying, but that ammo page that Rovert showed me said that the M193's ability to frag at ranges under 200 produced much more devistating wounds than even soft point ammo.
Besides, I could get M193 for a lot less than I could with 1000 rounds of softpoint. Anyway, does anyone know a good source (supply with a link) for M193 ammo? Olympic is no good.
Besides, I could get M193 for a lot less than I could with 1000 rounds of softpoint. Anyway, does anyone know a good source (supply with a link) for M193 ammo? Olympic is no good.
six 4 sure
Member
Ammoman may seem a bit expensive, but shipping is included in the price, just in case you didn't catch that.
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