pbearperry
Member
OK so the LEO is not a good shot.For cripes sake shes at the range trying to get better and still shes criticized.Maybe shes a newbie?:banghead:
Surprized by the inaccuracy of a LEO
- Thread starter nerd-with-a-gun
- Start date
- Status
Destructo6
Member
There's another consideration that may have not yet been broached: Only duty ammo may be used in the issued duty weapon. If duty ammo is not issued for regular practice, for one reason or another (money), then the officer cannot practice with their duty weapon.
There are quite a few agencies where this is the case and it sucks.
RobMoore
Member
^ That is true, and I know of at least one agency that goes so far as to say their agents/officers can't even dry-fire unless under the direct supervision of one of their firearms instructors.
Making proficient gun handlers is not the "order of the day". Making people capable of passing the "qualifying course of fire" (thereby hoping to remove the agency of legal responsibility should the agent/officer fail in the line of duty) is the real goal.
The people who make the rules can't shoot very well, why would they ever want to raise the standards?
Making proficient gun handlers is not the "order of the day". Making people capable of passing the "qualifying course of fire" (thereby hoping to remove the agency of legal responsibility should the agent/officer fail in the line of duty) is the real goal.
The people who make the rules can't shoot very well, why would they ever want to raise the standards?
I understand, but some cases I've seen myself seem a bit extreme--as if there were virtually no training at all except for what the officers elect to do on their own time and dime. Even one short session with a knowledgeable instructor for those who score the lowest would greatly help a majority of them, I believe--I'm not talking about intensive training to a high level of skill here, just the ability to train effectively on their own and consistently hit near their point of aim at combat distances (some cops are truly great shooters, but some can't even put most of their rounds on paper at 15 yards
).
BCRider
Member
All this and I don't see ONE single post that berated the OP for not easing on over and offering to help her with her shooting and maybe ask her out for coffee after the range session? I sense that more than a few holsters are done up a notch too tight tonight at the ol' THR trough!
As so many mentioned and having worked in the past with cops a lot of them only pull the gun out when the demands of re-certifying are looming. There's a good chance that this lady was in the same stew and was hoping to get her shooting down to something that would pass the requirements. But from the sounds of it she was either happy in her ignorance or frustrated as hell at her performance but didn't know what to do about it other than keep practicing the same bad habits.
Loved the quote about the new gun vs new pen....
As so many mentioned and having worked in the past with cops a lot of them only pull the gun out when the demands of re-certifying are looming. There's a good chance that this lady was in the same stew and was hoping to get her shooting down to something that would pass the requirements. But from the sounds of it she was either happy in her ignorance or frustrated as hell at her performance but didn't know what to do about it other than keep practicing the same bad habits.
Loved the quote about the new gun vs new pen....
Another thing to consider is that these days cops are taught that hits count, not tight groups, the Q targets we use don't have any rings to score. When we qualify we are scored on hits and they can be anywhere on the silhouette except for the head shots, they're expected to be in the head. In fact, when scoring targets, the rangemasters just count hits up to the minimum qualifying number and call it good.
The majority of people strive to meet the minimum expectations in anything they do, the rest strive to exceed those expectations. In the case of cops qualifying with firearms, until more is expected of them, that majority will be happy just getting by and getting it out of the way until next year. Human nature.
The majority of people strive to meet the minimum expectations in anything they do, the rest strive to exceed those expectations. In the case of cops qualifying with firearms, until more is expected of them, that majority will be happy just getting by and getting it out of the way until next year. Human nature.
nerd-with-a-gun
Member
Actually I really considered asking her if I might offer her some help and tips on trigger control. All that I have learned about how to shoot well I have learned from you guys here on this forum. The only reason that I did not offer her my help is that I felt like who am I to offer help when the first and only time I ever fired a gun was four months ago. I promise you this, if I ever do see her again at the range, I will ask if I can give her some tips that I have learned that have helped me shoot better.
BTW, one of the forum members here actually took some time out of his busy day and met me at the range one day to give me some tips and advice on good shooting techniques. He happens to be a LEO who is a gun person and a very good shooter.
God bless our men and women in blue ( or grey or brown). You have a very difficult and dangerous job and I have the utmost respect for you all.
Last edited:
3845
Member
I am brand new to THR, my first post, but this topic is old hat to me. I retired after 31 years as a policeman, and I have to side with those who give the woman credit for practicing. Just hearing and feeling the gun go off is more practice than a lot of officers get, and many have to be forced to the range on work time.
If she has the heart to shoot on her own time and with her own ammo, maybe she has what it takes to show up on calls and be there to use her equipment if needed.
Could be she would appreciate some help, too. She seems to get it that skill might get her to retirement some day.
If she has the heart to shoot on her own time and with her own ammo, maybe she has what it takes to show up on calls and be there to use her equipment if needed.
Could be she would appreciate some help, too. She seems to get it that skill might get her to retirement some day.
Last edited:
The hardest thing for me when I was an officer was finding time to go to the range, and I am a gun-lover. In addition, the low salary made it difficult to find money to pay for personal ammo. I also HATED my duty pistol, so when I did find money for ammo, I didn't shoot it through the duty pistol often.
In terms of standards, there's a lot of paperwork to go through just to be an officer, along with testing. Many people are weeded out of the process because of background checks, lack of athleticism, and, sometimes, failing to attain standards in mental and psychological testing. There is a lot more to being an officer than shooting skills. What I am trying to say is that raising the standards to teach someone who passes all that, and may or may not make it through the rest of the training, or may quit, is quite a bit to ask.
I knew some officers who I WOULD NOT want to be my backup, and I knew some officers who I'd trust at the 50 yard range, because I've seen them shoot and consistently ring headshots. These were the guys who usually rolled their own and weren't on the street...aka older officers putting in their last few years before retirement.
In terms of standards, there's a lot of paperwork to go through just to be an officer, along with testing. Many people are weeded out of the process because of background checks, lack of athleticism, and, sometimes, failing to attain standards in mental and psychological testing. There is a lot more to being an officer than shooting skills. What I am trying to say is that raising the standards to teach someone who passes all that, and may or may not make it through the rest of the training, or may quit, is quite a bit to ask.
I knew some officers who I WOULD NOT want to be my backup, and I knew some officers who I'd trust at the 50 yard range, because I've seen them shoot and consistently ring headshots. These were the guys who usually rolled their own and weren't on the street...aka older officers putting in their last few years before retirement.
Lorenzo Rojo
Member
I had a very similar experience. I was shooting my .45 acp in a lane next to a LEO who was shooting a .40 cal polymer framed pistol. We were both shooting at 7 yards. I was putting every round into the inner ring on the silhouette; she was all over the place, really some of the worst shooting I've ever seen. She had someone with her who was supposed to be helping her, but he was much more interested in how and what he was shooting in another lane over. I felt very bad for her because the advice she was getting was patently bad. Watching her shoot a couple clips revealed all of her problems, and they could all have been solved with some patient instruction. I wanted to say something but her "teacher" what just making a mess of things. I felt stuck and very bad for her.
On the other side of the issue that has be discussed here I feel strongly that the switch from 6 round revolvers to 14 round semi-autos has adversely affected the shooting skills of LEOs. When you only have 6 rounds, I think you have a stronger motivation to make every round count. The high-capacity revolution, if you will, has created more of a spray-and-pray approach to shooting. I am good friends with 4 LEOs and I am far and away a better shot than all of them. And, I'm not really that hot a shot.
On the other side of the issue that has be discussed here I feel strongly that the switch from 6 round revolvers to 14 round semi-autos has adversely affected the shooting skills of LEOs. When you only have 6 rounds, I think you have a stronger motivation to make every round count. The high-capacity revolution, if you will, has created more of a spray-and-pray approach to shooting. I am good friends with 4 LEOs and I am far and away a better shot than all of them. And, I'm not really that hot a shot.
Jefferson Herb
Member
leo, range, tips
For those who would have offered help,good;unless shunned and told to myob. In my area we have both shooters and non shooters,non shooters usually don't care to know more than required.
I find that non leo shooters tend to keep up on the laws than leo's,because they don't want that senerio.
The only person who dryfired my martini-Henry in 577-450 was a ret leo from oakland who moved north;I consider it my fault to show it to the person,I thought they were better trained.
Not to bash Leo's,I wish they did have a bit more knowledge about firearms identification,in my case relics;many of these old guns are w/o any safety of any kind. But that's why the NRA is needed,to promote training,and hopefully keep the support of the 2nd ammendment alive.
Not everyone had the chance to live as a teen w/200rds of 22lr a week for ground squirrls.
For those who would have offered help,good;unless shunned and told to myob. In my area we have both shooters and non shooters,non shooters usually don't care to know more than required.
I find that non leo shooters tend to keep up on the laws than leo's,because they don't want that senerio.
The only person who dryfired my martini-Henry in 577-450 was a ret leo from oakland who moved north;I consider it my fault to show it to the person,I thought they were better trained.
Not to bash Leo's,I wish they did have a bit more knowledge about firearms identification,in my case relics;many of these old guns are w/o any safety of any kind. But that's why the NRA is needed,to promote training,and hopefully keep the support of the 2nd ammendment alive.
Not everyone had the chance to live as a teen w/200rds of 22lr a week for ground squirrls.
I doubt that. I say the problem is less and less emphasis on training/practice at the institutional level.
We had somebody on here a couple of months back trying to set up a quick in dirty familerization course on AR-15s for their department. The guy was working with less than 50 rds per person for both zeroing and firing. The head LEO was absolutely dead set against purchasing more practice ammo.
I'm also learning on other forums that PDs are getting more and more reluctant to issue practice ammunition, or practice ammunition in any meaningful quantity. There are guys talking about how they used to get plenty of ammunition but are down to low or no practice ammo allowances.
FirearmsEnthusiast
Member
The officers in Australia shoot up my friends local range twice a year. In Australia they have to shoot twice a year and most gun owners are more accurate then the police. Yet they're allowed to CC and OC when we can't.
nitetrane98
Member
All I want to know is how many of you experts have called your Chief of Police, Sheriff, Mayor, Councilperson or what have you and demanded that funds be made available for ammunition, training time and instructors so that your officers can shoot as good as you do? Or how many of you have called your state representative and demanded that the qualifying score be raised to 95%. How about giving each officer a custom fitted, accurized handgun. For the most part, you may be assured that if the officer is carrying a gun, like it or not, he/she has met the requirements to do so.
Think about how many rounds it has taken for you to become the expert that you are. Now multiply that by every sworn officer on your force.
You want them all to be master shooters? Put your money where your mouth is.
Oh, I see, they should pay that out of their own pocket because being a LEO is a calling like being a preacher or something.
Think about how many rounds it has taken for you to become the expert that you are. Now multiply that by every sworn officer on your force.
You want them all to be master shooters? Put your money where your mouth is.
Oh, I see, they should pay that out of their own pocket because being a LEO is a calling like being a preacher or something.
ArthurDent
Member
Not all LEOs are bad shots!
One of the most impressive handgun performances I've seen at a range was done by a uniformed LEO. The officer who was in the next stall of the indoor range was just making the one hole bigger.
The target was probably 7 or 10 yards away. The officer was shooting a mid- or full-sized Glock from a free-standing isosceles stance. This was either a .40 or .45 caliber, I can't remember which. He was shooting about 15 rounds a minute, so not a tactical rapid fire, but not all that slow either. He was shooting a silhouette target, and sending a bunch of rounds down-range. ALL of the rounds went into the same 3-inch hole in the center ring.
I often run into LEOs or ex-military at the range. They are all top-notch folks, and generally very friendly and knowledgeable.
One of the most impressive handgun performances I've seen at a range was done by a uniformed LEO. The officer who was in the next stall of the indoor range was just making the one hole bigger.
The target was probably 7 or 10 yards away. The officer was shooting a mid- or full-sized Glock from a free-standing isosceles stance. This was either a .40 or .45 caliber, I can't remember which. He was shooting about 15 rounds a minute, so not a tactical rapid fire, but not all that slow either. He was shooting a silhouette target, and sending a bunch of rounds down-range. ALL of the rounds went into the same 3-inch hole in the center ring.
I often run into LEOs or ex-military at the range. They are all top-notch folks, and generally very friendly and knowledgeable.
An officers most important "weapon" is the one between his/her ears. If that one is working properly he/she may never have to use their side arm.
I was a LEO for 11 years and only shot during quals or special firearms training. On my days off the last thing I wanted to do was strap on the tools of the trade. Everyone has seen the mechanic driving the beater, the carpenter with the dilapidated house or the yard man with more weeds than grass in his yard. If it is your job you want to leave it alone on days off.
Another thing, as has already been brought up, is money. Today I can afford to go to the range 2-3 times a week and throw 300.00 bucks down range. When I was in law enforcement the money was spent putting food on the table.
Never judge a man/woman till you walk in their shoes.
I was a LEO for 11 years and only shot during quals or special firearms training. On my days off the last thing I wanted to do was strap on the tools of the trade. Everyone has seen the mechanic driving the beater, the carpenter with the dilapidated house or the yard man with more weeds than grass in his yard. If it is your job you want to leave it alone on days off.
Another thing, as has already been brought up, is money. Today I can afford to go to the range 2-3 times a week and throw 300.00 bucks down range. When I was in law enforcement the money was spent putting food on the table.
Never judge a man/woman till you walk in their shoes.
Triggernosis
Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2010
- Messages
- 500
Maybe the LEO was at the range trying to improve her shooting skills. I'd give her a thumbs-up for that. Just sayin'.......
nerd-with-a-gun
Member
Just to make things clear, I am not criticizing the female LEO for her bad performance, just surprised by it. I do commend her for at least practicing to improve her shooting skills.
I am surprised because I just assumed that LEOs had better training than what they get. It is an unfortunate state of affairs that the people that we rely on for our safety and protection do not get the necessary funding to be able to do their jobs effectively. The same goes for our firefighters and teachers. It seems that our most important civil servants, the police, firefighters and teachers, are always left on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to funding.
Let's not let this thread degrade into a political discussion, but let us keep in mind that we do have the power to try and change things through letters to our elected officials and through the ballot box.
I have edited this post to answer these questions posed by Thorazine:
"Were you shooting slow fire aimed groups?" I was shooting slow fire aimed groups as was the LEO
"Was the LEO also shooting slow fire aimed groups?" Yes
"Or was the LEO shooting rapid fire groups?" No
"Perhaps also drawing from a holster?" She was not drawing from the holster. For some reason the range I go to does not allow draw and fire.
I am surprised because I just assumed that LEOs had better training than what they get. It is an unfortunate state of affairs that the people that we rely on for our safety and protection do not get the necessary funding to be able to do their jobs effectively. The same goes for our firefighters and teachers. It seems that our most important civil servants, the police, firefighters and teachers, are always left on the low end of the totem pole when it comes to funding.
Let's not let this thread degrade into a political discussion, but let us keep in mind that we do have the power to try and change things through letters to our elected officials and through the ballot box.
I have edited this post to answer these questions posed by Thorazine:
"Were you shooting slow fire aimed groups?" I was shooting slow fire aimed groups as was the LEO
"Was the LEO also shooting slow fire aimed groups?" Yes
"Or was the LEO shooting rapid fire groups?" No
"Perhaps also drawing from a holster?" She was not drawing from the holster. For some reason the range I go to does not allow draw and fire.
Last edited:
bigfatdave
Member
Actually I really considered asking her if I might offer her some help and tips on trigger control. All that I have learned about how to shoot well I have learned from you guys here on this forum.Good!
I'm mostly a self-made shooter as well, and I've offered advice to a few fellow range users by simply offering to "pass along some tips that have helped me".
I've offered trigger time and a pile of bulk .22 ammo on my rimfires, too. Developing bad habits on centerfire isn't going to fix trigger jerk, flinch, or other bad habits. If you aren't taking a plinker .22 every range trip, start doing so for your own improvement and possible training.
I'm mostly a self-made shooter as well, and I've offered advice to a few fellow range users by simply offering to "pass along some tips that have helped me".
I've offered trigger time and a pile of bulk .22 ammo on my rimfires, too. Developing bad habits on centerfire isn't going to fix trigger jerk, flinch, or other bad habits. If you aren't taking a plinker .22 every range trip, start doing so for your own improvement and possible training.
LeonCarr
Member
Here in Texas a Peace Officer is required by the state to qualify at least once a year (Most departments are EXACTLY once a year), and that the course of fire for handguns must be a minimum of 50 rounds, including at least 5 rounds of duty ammunition, fired at ranges from point-blank to at least 15 yards with at least 20 rounds at or beyond 7 yards, including at least one timed reload. Except for the timed reload and the duty ammunition requirement, it is basically the same as the Texas CHL course of fire. So basically a 30 year law enforcement veteran could meet the state standards and fire only 1500 rounds in his/her entire career, excluding the academy. I say only because I know several people that have shot 1500 rounds in one weekend .
I have seen in print many times that a typical (C Class) USPSA/IPSC shooter, or Sharpshooter Class IDPA shooter, could outshoot about 90% of the police officers in America. Most LEOs are not "gun people" but they all should be.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
.I have seen in print many times that a typical (C Class) USPSA/IPSC shooter, or Sharpshooter Class IDPA shooter, could outshoot about 90% of the police officers in America. Most LEOs are not "gun people" but they all should be.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Might be due to her using the M&P that her target looked like it was hit by buckshot.
All the M&P's I've shot had lousy gritty triggers with indistinct reset. No inherent accuracy in the M&P. And I'm a fan of other S&W semi autos.
I'd want to see her shoot something else......anything else.....before passing judgment. TJ
All the M&P's I've shot had lousy gritty triggers with indistinct reset. No inherent accuracy in the M&P. And I'm a fan of other S&W semi autos.
I'd want to see her shoot something else......anything else.....before passing judgment. TJ
RobMoore
Member
..and I've found the opposite, so either you had an unusually innacurate M&P, or it was you.
mokin
Member
I've come across those who can shoot well and those who are working on it at the local ranges. In every case I've had pleasent exchanges, a little gun talk, (that is how I confirmed suspisions as to how much they shoot), and in one case I was given a "homemade" hostage rescue target featuring Shrek--as the hostage. I was pleased to see the skill of those who whot well and that those who didn't were working on thier skills.
JTQ
Member
You don't really know what this officer was trying to accomplish during her practice. The only one scoring her shooting was you. Shooting by yourself is a good was to try something new to see if you can make it work.
Was she aiming at the center or picking another part of the target to hit with each specific shot?
Was she practicing weak hand shooting?
Was she practicing using both eyes/left eye/right eye or some other different aiming technique she was experimenting with?
You could watch some guy looking terrible shooting baskets in his driveway for 30 minutes. After challenging him to a game of one-on-one you find out he was shooting with his "off hand" during practice and he just destroyed you on the court.
Was she aiming at the center or picking another part of the target to hit with each specific shot?
Was she practicing weak hand shooting?
Was she practicing using both eyes/left eye/right eye or some other different aiming technique she was experimenting with?
You could watch some guy looking terrible shooting baskets in his driveway for 30 minutes. After challenging him to a game of one-on-one you find out he was shooting with his "off hand" during practice and he just destroyed you on the court.
- Status