surrealistic debate with former Marine

[romma]

Okay, so I had a debate of sorts with a retired marine, not sure of his rank, but he served fir over 20 yrs.

Every cliche from other debates people on this board I ever heard up to and including " I believe in the 2nd ammendment but,,," were cast about, things like "why would someone need an AK-47" ? were tossed about..

I felt like I was reading a thread that someone else posted on this board. I will admit, some posters on this board garner more credibility and respect from me (you know what I mean if you have been posting here a while), so when I hear some of these "Arguments with an Anti" posted, I am dubious at times....

However, this blew me away, I was living it, experiencing it and I couldn't believe that someone who fought in several wars for our country would actually tell me the 2nd ammendment was about hunting... I kid you not!

To top it off, his wife was trying to tell me that because he was retired military, he knew more than me about all things that were gun related, and political...

I would never have believed it till I saw it with my own eyes...

Ironically, we did agree on many other political issues.

 

[siglite]

In my six years as a Marine, I learned very little about the 2nd amendment (or the entire BoR) or firearms. And I was in a combat MOS, and served in a combat theater. It's clear to me in retrospect, that the military is a bit of a socio-political vacuum. Some reach beyond that vacuum. Some do not. While I was in, I did not. I had enough on my mind.

It doesn't surprise me to find people who don't understand the BoR within the military. I didn't. When I served, the intention was to serve my country and preserve our freedoms. But I have to confess, that at the time, I did not understand those freedoms for which I fought.

I don't want to offend those who are currently serving or who have ever served. But honestly, while I was in, political awareness (for me) was not something I cared much about. It's also my opinion, that most of my peers were generally the same way. I could not have recited the BoR for you. I could not have recited the 2nd. I could not have recited the 1st. But I knew my damned rifle creed. Do you see the psychological/social/political significance of that?

 

[Wes Janson]

I had a fudd come into the store the other day...he was looking at our black rifles, and saying how he never understood the point of dem thangs. "They're too dangerous" "Only bad guys use those" "What's the point of it anyhow"

I looked at him and said a tad forcefully "Sir, your Model 70 or 700 is a devastatingly accurate sniper rifle capable of shooting people from hundreds of yards away, and no decent person has any need for a dangerous weapon like that. Those will be the words they'll use to take away your hunting rifle, after they've taken away these rifles here. Hundreds of thousands of law abiding citizens own scary-looking rifles like these, and use them for hunting, defense, and fun. Ban one, and the rest will follow. Hunting isn't exactly considered necessary by many, remember that." at which point I just turned and walked away.

 

[jakemccoy]

Believe it or not, the Second Amendment is esoteric. A vast majority of the population, including members of Congress, military personnel and law enforcement, just don't get it. They just haven't thought much about it. They try to apply so-called common sense without reviewing or understanding its history.

Unfortunately, this guy obviously knows everything because he's retired military. Also, he probably doesn't like guns.

Move on. Don't stress. There's nothing you can say. People like that have to venture off to the wilderness alone and come back with an understanding about certain things on their own.

 

[SDDL-UP]

If he believes in the Second Amendment "but"... ask him to explain why he believes in the Second Amendment at all and have him explain the "but" part to you. Most likely you can corner him into admitting his arguments are illogical and then just get him to admit he's not being totally logical. He can have any opinion he wants, but you'll go a long way by showing him he's being irrational and/or illogical.


GREAT JOB WES! We need to let hunters know they are next!

 

[R127]

However, this blew me away, I was living it, experiencing it and I couldn't believe that someone who fought in several wars for our country would actually tell me the 2nd ammendment was about hunting... I kid you not!

I think siglite covered it pretty well. I would only add this, how many wars in the past 20 or however many years were fought over the second ammendment? Answer: none. Why would you assume he'd know anything about it?

[qupte]
To top it off, his wife was trying to tell me that because he was retired military, he knew more than me about all things that were gun related, and political... [/quote]

Yes indeed. There are many similar romantic myths that have no basis in reality. Most people in the military or police aren't really gun people and tend to mostly just understand their duty/issue weapons. People who've been out a while and haven't kept up on it have also very likely forgotten a lot and gotten very rusty. Likewise the hand to hand and unarmed training they get is much better than nothing but nowhere close to being on the same level as somebody who's really a serious student of martial arts. Mix in a little Captain America poisoning that usually comes with government employment and you end up with a large number of "experts" whose reach exceeds their grasp. None of which means they don't/didn't know their jobs, were bad at them or that they're bad people, it's the same thing as just because somebody knows and loves motorboats doesn't mean they automatically know the first thing in the world about sailboats or racecars. They might, but only if they also studied those vehicles.

 

[romma]

Most likely you can corner him into admitting his arguments are illogical and then just get him to admit he's not being totally logical

Tried that, he wouldn't listen, he used the militia clause as his reason to which I pointed the pending outcome we are waiting for from Heller... He knows about the Heller DC case, and he is a smart individual overall, he has the typical firearms prejudices that you can only read about here.

He knew the BOR, he just didn't want to acknowledge the 2nd in its' entirety...

 

[Soybomb]

Is the marine part really relevant? Just because someone's job may include a gun doesn't necessarily mean they're a gun person.

 

[romma]

Is the marine part really relevant?

I feel a little backround info on the person I was debating is okay.

How many times have I heard people on this board having debates with liberal college professors, soccer moms, police officers, their barbers or any number of individuals?

Why be afraid to mention he was a Marine? It certainly is not meant to put down the Marines and paint them in a bad light..

I suppose if you mention having debates with Antis', or those for the most part opposed to ownership of firearms for mainly defensive purposes, what is wrong with pointing out the variety of individuals we have to face and debate in our dealings with said individuals...

 

[SSN Vet]

Believe it or not, the Second Amendment is esoteric. A vast majority of the population, including members of Congress, military personnel and law enforcement, just don't get it. They just haven't thought much about it. They try to apply so-called common sense without reviewing or understanding its history.

and because so many of these political creatures are so far, far away from ever having to put their money where their mouth is and carry arms to defend their country, they can afford to live in lala land.

any marine (soldier or sailer) should know better....imho. Maybe your marine friend was to much in the business of doing what he was told and not much in the business of thinking for himself.

the concept of standing up and fighting for what they believe in is totally foreign.

Maybe military service should be a pre-req. for elected office.

his wife was trying to tell me that because he was retired military, he knew more than me about all things that were gun related

yup, ANNUAL proficiency does make one quite the expert.

 

[BattleChimp Potemkin]

Ive met several army guys that were anti-gun. All riflemen too. Sort of sick, but shows that service doesnt necessarily mean citizenship. Ive served in the Army and learned alot about the world. The Second Amendment is meant as a check and balance system (in my interpretation at least). Some folks in the military and government, not to mention populace dont like that idea because they dont like someone to have a conflicting viewpoint to their "perfect" world.

As for Marine being relevant, ENTIRELY! Look at the police. All of the police carry a sidearm and have weapons, however, many and I mean MANY do not believe in citizen ownership of guns. Why? Who knows, variety of reasons. But it does illustrate that those who defend the constitution arent always doing in the best interest of the constitution.

 

[Deanimator]

Is the marine part really relevant? Just because someone's job may include a gun doesn't necessarily mean they're a gun person.

+1

I used to be a delivery driver for a photographic developing house. That didn't make me a professional photographer, a professional developer, or a race car driver.

 

[Funderb]

The military intentionally creates a political vacuum to avoid tension among the enlisted. I am not surprised, really.

 

[renegade1alpha]

It does not surprise me. I have 21 years of military service (Marines and Army) and I still run into some, but not many, liberals in the military. A lot of people I've met couldn't tell you what the 2nd amendment was or any other amendment for that matter. One woman told me that the 1st amendment said you can't pray in school. I had to explain to her that that was NOT what it meant.

Just look past ignorant people like that and know that you are better than that. And keep carrying your gun!

 

[DEDON45]

I guess maybe I've just been lucky, but all of the ex-military guys I run into believe in the 2nd amendment... then again, I run into most of them at gun ranges!



Oh, and I've debated several liberal folks about gun rights... I always corner them on "Do you want (name their GF or Wife or Kids) to be defenseless, waiting on the police, when a criminal is putting their life in danger?" The answer can only be no (no waffling)... I force them to say yes or no. Then I say "Wouldn't it make sense for them to have a TOOL that can save their lives?" ... the answer again can only be YES. Through this line of questioning, I always get them to the point of yes, we should have guns to defend ourselves, but they always say "but, I don't trust everyone else to have one"... Then I point out that's how their buddies think too, and that to live in a free society (well as free as it is nowadays), you have to accept some risk, but you can always carry .45 caliber "insurance." Some get the argument, and I see the gears move a bit. Some get frustrated and mad, and try to defuse the logic with an emotional argument. I just change the subject at that point. I rather enjoy it, and have enlightened a few. The good thing is I let them initiate the argument, and I finish it.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

I think the geographic location & parental politics of your childhood have MUCH more to do with your position on RKBA issues than does your military background. I noticed the OP location was in New England. Societial opinions on a WEALTH of topics vary widely between, say...a Jacksonian Southerner and a Federalist Northerner. As an extreme example, it would be generally as easy to find a pro-CCW tree-hugger in Kentucky or Tennessee as it would be to find a anti-CCW Sporting Clays shooter in Massachusetts. We were unaware at the time, but the early NRA defense of RKBA using Hunting & Target Sports as a rational eventually hurt the cause. Our Right was framed & assured to preclude institutionalized tyranny, not facilitate target practice. If your Marine (Semper Fi) friend has missed that truth, then his question about the AK makes perfect sense.

 

[romma]

Also, another topic that came up was Concealed Carry, he refused to believe that you can carry in VT, and that they don't even have a permit system. I have printed the facts from several sites to show him otherwise.

He is convinced he is right because he lived in VT...

Obviously I didn't even get into CT becaused that never came up, and I didn't feel it would be wise to mention I was carrying at the time.

 

[Ithaca37]

Is the marine part really relevant? Just because someone's job may include a gun doesn't necessarily mean they're a gun person.

If he had said that an ex-military guy was very pro-2A people here would get all wet.

If he says something that doesn't fit people's silly notion that all military and LEO's are pro 2A you get upset? Maybe it was mentioned because he thought that, like so many here do, that military people are all the same. Which is obviously not true.

 

[ColinthePilot]

Siglite nailed it on the head. My father was a Marine as well, and I'm currently in the Air Force. My dad taught me that members of the military give up certain rights while in uniform in order to preserve those rights for others (you can't tell your commander to shove it because you have 1st ammendment rights.)
Since I joined, I tend to keep my mouth shut about politics, especially around civilians, and especially in uniform. Consequently, I don't follow politics as much.
I treat politics like "company policy" and even if I don't like something going on in the company, I would never give the stockholders...err, taxpayers, anything but the best image I can.

However, I work in a joint squadron with Air Force and Navy personnel. I picked up the Navy equivalent of "Airman Magazine" (Seaman Magazine?) and read some articles covering gun safety, and a few stories about ND's. They were terribly written, both technically and grammatically. Semi-automatic handguns loaded with "clips" and other silly mistakes from people who are obviously not well versed in guns. It was mildly anti-gun, but not more than, say, a cautious parent to a child. I was just amazed how ignorant people trained in the profession of arms were ABOUT arms.

 

[brighamr]

My grandfather, WWII paratrooper, never shot a gun after the war. He had the opinion that guns cause useless death. Considering what he had seen and been through, I could understand his opinion, even though I don't agree with it.

If someone is interested in RKBA or guns in general, it's worth my time to educate them. If they just want to fight, or believe they're morally right for any reason, the conversation is over.

 

[Cosmoline]

There seems to be a growing rift between military and civilian cultures in general, so it's not surprising to see this reflected in the gun debates. Not many of us had well formulated views on the RKBA or any other Constitutional issue by the time we were 18. And if you go into service you're unlikely to be educated on such matters there.

I was just amazed how ignorant people trained in the profession of arms were ABOUT arms.

I've also noticed this. But I suppose unless you're special forces you really only need to know how to operate the machinery you're assigned with. There aren't 400 different cartridges dating back to the 1850's. There's just ammo. There aren't a thousand different weapons in your mind, there's just the one in your hands. If you need to know more, your superiors will train you. Otherwise you can safely ignore such matters.

 

[siglite]

Make no mistake, most of my friends think it's ok to come take away your firearms any time they want. The Marines are not friends of America or Liberty.

This is greatly disturbing. Have anything to substantiate it? I realize that you very well may not, and I accept your opinion at face value. But if there's documentation of this mentality among the leadership of the Corps (or even officers and staff NCOs) somewhere, I would very much like to see it.

 

[berettashotgun]

My hippie neighbor was shocked when I was taking some fishing poles from the truck and she asked me," Do you catch and release?" , to which I replied" Hell no, I hunt down - kill - and eat, always have- always will"
I was just trying to get a rise out of Mrs Kravitz (yeah- you know her) SUCCESS!! Asked her about the leather shoes, MADE IN CHINA, she has quit wearing them.
My favorite thing I ever said to her was about my job.
" I'm in the business of making sure Americans can KILL the people who don't bow down to our threats"
I thought she was gonna have conniption on the spot.
Good times......

 

[Alex45ACP]

I have heard that one of the questions on the test they give you for the special forces is something like: "Would you confiscate firearms from American citizens?"

I think it's sad that these people swear to protect the Constitution, yet most of them don't know the first thing about it.

 

[BruceRDucer]

What Jake McCoy said...

"Unfortunately, this guy obviously knows everything because he's retired military. Also, he probably doesn't like guns.

Move on. Don't stress. There's nothing you can say. People like that have to venture off to the wilderness alone and come back with an understanding about certain things on their own."---Jake McCoy

Jake is right. There are Marine vets who aren't really Constitutional Scholars, even though they may be intellectually savvy on some military history and political affairs. Besides, some people find the proposition that POWER resides in "The People," instead of only in a central government, to be an unwelcome proposition.

Many of our People trust each other. Why can't the government trust the people it continually sends to foreign wars to bleed and die in?

It leads to the ridiculus proposition that we can only fight for some government policy, but never for our homes, lands, and personal safety.

Maybe people really are generally uneducated about world history generally, and American History in particular?