Survey - help me with a decision on a CZ

Should I get a CZ 452 asap or a 455 whenever?

  • 452 now

    Votes: 21 77.8%

  • 455 whenever

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
skeptical_in_Ohio

skeptical_in_Ohio

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2011
Messages
237
Location
Ohio
Hi all-

I'm seeking a CZ in 22LR. One option is to track down a 452 before they go away and the other is to get a 455 whenever as they're more available. The 452 is a well-known quantity as to quality and accuracy. I had heard that the 455 had a few teething challenges, but more recent reviews are quite favorable. Further, it does appear the stock barrel clearance may be a little more favorable in the 455. From what I can see, the price difference for similar variants is about $90 more for the 452 than the same type of 455. I have no particular desire to swap barrels at this time (and don't foresee it down the road either). I have held a 455, and it's nice.

Once that decision is made, I also am a little uncertain on whether to seek something like a Varmint and scope it, or get the Trainer with the tangent sight. The trainer would add something different to the .22 collection, whereas I do have a few scoped rifles.

Purpose is basically plinking.

So...two questions, one easily put in a survey and the other more "subjective". The poll is 455 vs 452. Feel free to vote then offer rationale on that question, but please also offer opinions about which variant, regardless of the 452 v 455 question.

Thanks all.
 
If you have good eyes and don't need optics, get the 452 Trainer.

I bought one before my eyes got middle age syndrome. I like the old school construction of the 452 immensely. I can still shoot it fairly well with open sights, so I leave it that way. It shoulders effortlessly with your eye falling right in line with the sights. As long as the barrel is, it isn't muzzle heavy either. The balance is just right.
 
If you can find a 452....get it....will not disappoint....however....the 455 are really great rifles....will not disappoint either.
I have a 452FS...22....and with the "Tech-sight" peeps sight...it is a tack driver...and a beauty to just look at...
and I have a 452 Varmint...with scope...just jaw dropping accurate.....
Just got a 455 Lux..22....and so far it is as amazing as the 452s I have....shopping for the right scope for it...
 
Both are quite capable rifles. CZ is probably the 2nd most numerous rifle in smallbore silhouette, behind Anschutz. They just plain shot good. Both routinely are used to shoot master class scores right out of the box. Fully tricking them out with bedded stock and YoDave trigger kit only makes them better. The trainer shoots just as well.

Trigger advantage does go to the 455 though. The factory has a drop in true two stage flyweight trigger for it for $129. I think that is as good as the 1712 Anschutz two stage and is more adjustable, travel distance between stages can be adjusted.

The only negative thing left for either rifle is the massive firing pin. It is heavy and slow. A +10% power spring and machining it to resemble Swiss cheese really helps.

They're both great guns, get one of each!
 
I have several CZ rimfires. I have had both 455 and 452 guns. I had zero issues with my 455 American. I put about 15k rounds thru it before selling it.

For open sight shooting the Trainer is great as is. I replaced the rear notch with a J&P peep, which made it even better. The tangent adjusts are calibrated perfectly for a 40 gr supersonic round. My 452 Trainer is my favorite open sight rimfire rifle.

For even more precise shooting, I have an 452 Ultra Lux with Brno peep sights. In good hands, it will shoot 50 yard groups as tight as a scoped gun.

Triggers?...I have done dozens of CZ trigger jobs. I don't buy YoDave's or any one else's kits. I make my own shims and may or may not replace the trigger spring. Often I just take a coil or so off the factory spring. I usually get about a 2 lb trigger that will pass the hardest of bump tests.

I think any of the CZ's are great. They all shoot very good. I have shot all the models and have competed in Sporter benchrest against all of them. There isn't one model that is a runaway winner as far as accuracy goes.

I would get a 452 now. CZ has said they were being discontinued for the past 5 years, but they keep showing up. My friend bought 7 or 8 new Americans last year.
 
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Get a 452 now before they really do disappear (or become too pricey), then get a 455 later.
 
I have a trainer in both and can't really tell the difference. I doubt you'll go wrong either way.

Howard R., do you have a link? I can't find the trigger you mention.
 
This question has been posed numerous times over at Rimfire Central and there have been members do experiments with accuracy testing between the 452 and 455. The general consensus is there was no real difference between the two. Both guns are capable of similar accuracy and quality. It all boils down to whether a threaed on barrel is important to you or if you like the ability to swap barrels to other calibers or go with a Lilja barrel. For the $90 more, I don't see you getting $90 more of anything with the 452. But both are great guns, so you'll have a sweet little rifle no matter what.
 
I have a 455 and have not been happy with it. I've encountered three issues:
1) First round flyers 6-20MOA outside of 0.5MOA groups. This has been discussed at length on rimfire central, and the best guess is that it's due to lead buildup on tool marks at the chamber mouth. CZs are not the only rifles affected, but they are affected. Cleaning with lead solvent is only a very temporary solution. Some people have had long term success from hand or fire lapping the barrel, but I haven't gone there yet. This issue essentially renders the gun useless for hunting.
2) Poor magazine compatibility. At various times CZ has sold both metal (CZ 422 style?) and plastic mags as 455 mags. The metal ones don't work reliably (I've modded several with pliers and JB weld), and the plastic ones are pretty cheesy.
3) Too much flex in key parts. The barrel to action attachment is very flexible. So is the wood varmint stock mine came with. This causes all sorts of problems with both precision and accuracy. Many people are advocating not free floating and instead adding stock shims. I found that improved precision, but accuracy suffered because POI shifted several MOA depending on firing position. I've tried a Manners stock on it, which fixes the stock side of the problem but the barrel issues still remain. It's also a $500 stock for a $450 gun.

Overall it's been one of the most frustrating guns I've owned. Based on my sample of 1, I would not recommend anyone buy one. It is very pretty though.

I've been much happier with my 10/22 LVT - more accurate, much more stable with position shifts, and of course the rock solid 10/22 mags. Cheaper too.
 
I have 8 452s of various types. I wouldn't hesitate to own a 455 if there were something about the 455 line that I really wanted. If not, I prefer the barrel profile on the 452s and the fact that in hand, they just look and feel a little bit more "old school" to me. Once you get a CZ, you're likely to develop an affection for the connection to old school that the guns have.

I've experienced NO issues with any of my 452s. No magazine issues with either metal or plastic (I have a mix of each, but use the plastic most). All shoot very well albeit some prefer different ammo than others. You will need to handle the guns in order to know which one suits you best, but for ME, my favorite is the Trainer/Lux so long as I don't need magnification power higher than that provided by a scope that can be mounted LOW behind the rear sight. Here's the Lux/Trainer type stock with a 3-9x42 mounted low.
452%20Lux%20WMR%20Left%202_zpsulvpckyi.jpg


Perhaps the highest magnification level variable scope that will mount as low as the 3-9 above and still allow the bolt to cycle is the redesigned (with side focus) Weaver Grand Slam 4-16. https://www.natchezss.com/weaver-re...cope-1-tube-4-16x44mm-eb-x-reticle-matte.html That is a great scope for the Hogback CZs if you want some mag power and want to mount it low.

Here's an American with a bigger 6-24x42. The Lux above is at least as comfortable a fit, cheek-wise, as the American.
1124161449_HDR_zpsirpvyjtx.jpg
 
Don't have any experience with a 452. I have a 455 with a Leupold 2-7 scope. Very precise at 50 yards. Makes me look like I trained at Ft Benning.:D Teenagers who shoot it can do 2 moa usually in the first session. I use std velocity CCI when I can find it. I doubt that I will ever change the barrel but the option is always there. Every time I have boxed myself in I've regretted it.
 
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I sold my 452 to get a 455 with a threaded barrel. Can't tell a difference when I'm behind the trigger. They cycle the same, accuracy is the same, and lightening the trigger spring on The 455 is all it took for a really nice trigger. No yodave kit required.

I will say the the plastic cz stock is not my favorite. Has a nice feel, but too much flex in the forend.

I'm actually debating selling the factory barrel and getting one of the aluminum sleeved barrels. I really like what they did for my 10/22.
 
Have a 452 American in 17 HMR and a 452 Lux in 22 WMR. I wouldn't hesitate to get another 452 or a 455. I've never shot a better gun for practicle or utility use.

I voted 452 just because it's what I have.
 
Llama Bob said:
I have a 455 and have not been happy with it. I've encountered three issues:
1) First round flyers 6-20MOA outside of 0.5MOA groups. This has been discussed at length on rimfire central, and the best guess is that it's due to lead buildup on tool marks at the chamber mouth. CZs are not the only rifles affected, but they are affected. Cleaning with lead solvent is only a very temporary solution. Some people have had long term success from hand or fire lapping the barrel, but I haven't gone there yet. This issue essentially renders the gun useless for hunting.
2) Poor magazine compatibility. At various times CZ has sold both metal (CZ 422 style?) and plastic mags as 455 mags. The metal ones don't work reliably (I've modded several with pliers and JB weld), and the plastic ones are pretty cheesy.
3) Too much flex in key parts. The barrel to action attachment is very flexible. So is the wood varmint stock mine came with. This causes all sorts of problems with both precision and accuracy. Many people are advocating not free floating and instead adding stock shims. I found that improved precision, but accuracy suffered because POI shifted several MOA depending on firing position. I've tried a Manners stock on it, which fixes the stock side of the problem but the barrel issues still remain. It's also a $500 stock for a $450 gun.

Overall it's been one of the most frustrating guns I've owned. Based on my sample of 1, I would not recommend anyone buy one. It is very pretty though.

I've been much happier with my 10/22 LVT - more accurate, much more stable with position shifts, and of course the rock solid 10/22 mags. Cheaper too.
Click to expand...
Wow, all this bashing and you have owned a total of 1. If I had any problems with any of mine I would promptly contact CZ USA and see if they would send me a mailing label and return it for repairs. I did have a crown problem on a 455 Varmint that was fixed and returned within 2 weeks. Great customer service.
 
I voted 452 because that's all I have. CZ does not make the 455 with a left hand bolt & I refuse to buy one without that feature. However, there are a couple of things about the 455 I don't particularly care for. The first is the magazine well spacer needed to provide adaptability between the .22lr & .22 magnum magazines. It's just something to either get lost or introduce more clearance & therefore slop in the feeding process. The other is the lack of the second locking lug on the bolt. I'm told, over on Rimfirecentral, that that lack can allow the bolt to rotate in some fashion that the 452's won't & cause problems.

900F
 
bamajoey said:
Wow, all this bashing and you have owned a total of 1. If I had any problems with any of mine I would promptly contact CZ USA and see if they would send me a mailing label and return it for repairs.
Click to expand...
The problems aren't manufacturing defects - they're poor design and in the case of the barrel tooling. As far as I can tell from other people's experiences many if not all 455s have these problems. Sending it in isn't going to make the barrel to action junction more rigid or the stock more rigid. I've got 2 .22LR barrels both of which have the same flyer problem. If they give me a 3rd, I don't expect it to be better than the first two. They'd have to change their barrel manufacturing process to fix it.
 
We got the 455 trainer. What I learned: I wish I had gotten a configuration that was better suited for optics, because this .22 is so accurate in stock form that not having glass on it is doing it an injustice.

Now I've got a scope on it, but with the high mounts (required to clear the bolt lever and rear sight block) combined with the low-comb stock, I can't get a good cheek weld. So I'm going to either have to replace the stock, or add something funky & ugly to get my eye in alignment.
 
Hi all-

Sorry in advance for length - I'm an academic and that's how we roll ;-). You can skip to the bottom if you like.

Lots of good discussion and input, for which I thank you. Summarizing (hopefully somewhat accurately), 455 may be (and in many cases is) very good (one exception noted). 452 has the advantage of being a well-known quantity of high quality. Because of its multi-barrel design (multiple round lengths), 455 needs a mag spacer (which can be removed, which means it or the pin that holds it could be lost). There are some who have concerns about the fact that both the mags and the spacer are poly rather than metal. Some 455 issues were raised about the utility of being able to change calibers, while others wondered about rigidity of the connection to the action. 452 is going away, 455 will be around. There were a lot of "you can't go wrong either way" comments. 455 has a nice trigger add-in from CZ, where as the YoDave trigger can be done on the 452. As I write this, the survey is 15-6 in favor of the 452.

Here's where I went with all of this. I appreciated everybody's input, but a couple of things I heard here, a couple of changes in the environment, and at least one other thought drove the decision. In no particular order, my estimate of the difference didn't include shipping and CC fees (yes, I can pay cash but why not leave that in the bank for one more month, and if something goes odd the CC company can help apply duress that just isn't there if cash is used), so the difference between the best cost I thought I could get could get for the 455 was a little higher (about $350 all in plus tax). The extremely favorable comments of those who own a 452 also pushed me that way a bit, as did the survey results.

I am one of those (apparently a small number) that actually pay use tax (i..e even when I buy something online out of state I go ahead and pay the sales tax when I file my tax return), so that's a wash.

One other issue that occurred to me was that, in the unlikely event I should shoot it for a while and decide "Gee, I could've had a 455!", the 452 should by then be more valuable, so swapping it for a 455 would be a fairly easy thing.

Curiously, Gander Mountain (of all places) still had the 452 Trainer for $380 (before tax), and, they would deliver it to the local store and transfer it to me for no cost, and they have no CC fees. They also have a deal involving some spending on their credit card (most of which is covered by this rifle purchase) and getting a $60 gift certificate (which I didn't count in my analysis, but there it is). Hence, my original estimate of a $90 difference was way off.

So - since I didn't have a Gander Mountain card, I got one and bought the rifle. Some ammo when it arrives and one small purchase outside Gander Mountain and I get the gift certificate.

My new 452 Trainer should be arriving as early as Friday. I'm pleased.
 
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Llama Bob said:
The problems aren't manufacturing defects - they're poor design and in the case of the barrel tooling. As far as I can tell from other people's experiences many if not all 455s have these problems. Sending it in isn't going to make the barrel to action junction more rigid or the stock more rigid. I've got 2 .22LR barrels both of which have the same flyer problem. If they give me a 3rd, I don't expect it to be better than the first two. They'd have to change their barrel manufacturing process to fix it.
Click to expand...

If it was a design flaw as you suggest, then it would affect every (or nearly every) rifle that came off the assembly line. I'm fairly certain that is not the case. It certainly isn't the case with ours (the flyer issue).
 
azrocks said:
We got the 455 trainer. What I learned: I wish I had gotten a configuration that was better suited for optics, because this .22 is so accurate in stock form that not having glass on it is doing it an injustice.

Now I've got a scope on it, but with the high mounts (required to clear the bolt lever and rear sight block) combined with the low-comb stock, I can't get a good cheek weld. So I'm going to either have to replace the stock, or add something funky & ugly to get my eye in alignment.
Click to expand...
Don't use high mounts on a hog back gun. I have a few CZ hog back guns (Trainer, 2 Luxes, 4 FS) some Americans and a Varmint. A low-mounted scope on a hog back CZ fits me just as well as a typical mount on one of the Americans or the Varmint (the straight-combed guns). The key is to use low mounts and select a scope that isn't too long (will fit behind the rear sight), and doesn't have too large an ocular ring (will clear the bolt handle). The Lux that I pictured above uses the same rings as the FS below. Both are hog back guns, of course. The photo below shows the height of the scope centerline above the comb, comparing the American to a hog back gun, the FS in this case. When I pull each of these guns up to my shoulder (on the bench or off-hand), the FS below and Lux above actually fit me a little better than the American and I often prefer to shoot these guns from the bench than an American. I say all this in favor of a hog back CZ with a low-mounted scope, and I'll also say that I have little/no interest in shooting a CZ hog back gun with a high-mounted scope. A relatively little bit of mounting height makes THAT much difference to me. I've encountered several other people online who feel the same way. In fairness, there are others who say they don't mind a high-mounted scope, but it sounds like you're not in that camp.
CZ%20Comb%20Height%20Comparison_4_labeled_corrected_zpsdaynjx0k.jpg


If you want some magnification power and compact fitment behind the rear sights, try the Weaver redesigned Grand Slam 4-16x44 with side focus. https://www.natchezss.com/weaver-re...cope-1-tube-4-16x44mm-eb-x-reticle-matte.html
This is a quality scope, it will fit low and behind the rear sights, and the bolt can still be cycled with no issues. (And side focus is fantastic, IMO.) Otherwise, there are a large number of 3-9s that will work, as well as some others such as the Burris Timberline 4.5-14x32.
 
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Azrocks;

There's a couple of choices that may help your situation. The CZ USA on-line store will sell you an American style stock for your barreled action for something around $125.00 if I remember correctly. As yours is a 455, it should be a drop-in. Or, you can go to a different scope that will fit behind the rear sight & therefore be low enough to maintain a good cheek weld. The Leupolds get good reviews for this, the Nikons ocular bell is too large. The Loopy 2-7X will fit. Or, you could just go buy either a 452 or 455 American & scope it - no iron sights.

900F
 
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