SW1911 - accurate but unreliable

Status
Not open for further replies.
G

Gunhead

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2002
Messages
157
Location
Hungary
Today I tested a brand new SW1911 - the newest single stack .45ACP 1911 clone on the block with the external extractor.

I have to admit I am don't like 1911s, but as a gun writer at the local magazine I try really hard to look at them as objectively as possible. In fact, my ultimate quest is to find a 1911 or 2011 which works 100% out-of-box. No "break-in" BS or other excuses. So far I tested many brands from Auto-Ordnance to STI but none of them passed the test. (The only totally dependable piece was a Colt Gold Cup 10mm, but that gun was fine tuned by a smith.)

The SW1911 was a really nice gun, I loved the two tone black/silver look. It came with Wilson Combat mags and Novak sights. It produced some very-very impressive offhand groups. At 25 meters the best groups measured 1"-1.5" with 230gr FMJ and we were able to reproduce these also from 50 meters!! So the accuracy was top notch.

Unfortunately the situation with reliability was quite the opposite. We got around 15-20 FTFs in 100 rounds (round jamming to the top of chamber), so no one was able to empty a magazine without a hitch. :uhoh: The problem appeared randomly with fully or a partially loaded magazines. (The same full power ammo worked flawlessly from a USP45F.) The manual safety was also pretty loose so you could render the gun unoperational unintentionally, racking the slide on a fully loaded mag was extremely hard.

So my quest continues... :rolleyes:

Anyone had similar experiences with the SW1911?
 
Sorry, I don't take gun rags seriously.

Any monkey should be able to figure it out.

Lets start by asking if these are reloads. The USP feeding the same ammo means nothing due to the sloppy throat and chamber for reliability. (something found in most modern designs). If this is factory ammo, you have a problem. Bren
 
Don't have to be sorry because I am not writing for a living, and I don't take guns rags seriously too, especially those in the US who only post veiled advertisements called articles. Euro gun rags (like Visier or DWJ) tend to be less financially biased in general. Guess I am not alone with my quest, after a fellow german writer posted a test of a .40SW SVI, STI and a Caspian and none of them was 100% out-of-box....

Reloads are forbidden here, so I shoot only factory ammo. (230gr FMJ ball)

I find the sloppy throat and chamber fit a little amusing because I can shoot just as good groups with the USP45F as with the SW1911... The only difference is it's harder to do the same with the HK trigger.
 
Gunhead:

The following is met as an observation, not an excuse.

When I started shooting Colt-made Government Model .45 pistols back in the late 1940’s you could take them out of the box, load the magazine with ball ammunition (which was about all that was available at the time) and go ahead and shoot without problems. But that was a time when American makers could afford the skilled hand labor that was necessary to see that the guns were properly assembled and fitted. The Colt was designed at a time when such workers were available and affordable. Today this isn’t the case and most 1911 style guns, from whatever maker, are simply put together - unless it is a higher-priced custom or semi-custom gun. The current generation of European guns are designed to eliminate hand-fitting and still be reliable. This is good, and it is one reason these pistols are very popular in the United States.

In your case with the Smith & Wesson I suspect the magazines. In this country magazine makers form the lips and follower to feed hollow-point bullets, which are more commonly used then ball ammunition except for practice and target shooting. Most of these cartridges have shorter overall lengths then hardball. If one is available I suggest you try a standard U.S. military magazine or a good commercial equivalent and see what happens.
 
Agree with Old Fuff (again).
If I had to do with an autoloader only, would opt for a genuine, military accepted , 1911 or 1911A1.
Made to very strict and close tolerances and with sufficient clearance to ensure operation in adverse conditions.

Sam
 
Hmmm.

What do you call 100% reliability? How many rounds without cleaning before you have a FTF or other malfunction.

I've fired 500+rounds through a Colt 1911, a Springfield, and a Kimber before having a FTF. Cleaned them and they went 500+ again.

Cursory cleaning at about 200 rounds results in no FTF's...ever...thus far...10,000+ rounds amongst the three.

All three did that right out of the box. With no break in period. None of them have been monkeyed with by me. No gunsmith has touched any of them.

Would you call that 100% reliable?
 
Why do people take a pistol designed in the last century that has been critiqued, remodeled, re-engineered then place it beside a model that has just been engineered at the most a decade ago and complain about how it doesn't perform similarly? Knowing full well that the manual of arms say a break-in period is needed, they intentionally ignore this and become upset when things go wrong.
 
What, exactly, is happening during the break in period?

When you break in a car, you take it easy, but it doesn't misfire or knock. What is being reshaped, retimed or resprung in this simple pistol that makes it work completely differently later, but not at all reliably at first?
 
In a car the valves have to seat, seals fill out, etc.
In a pistol the mating surfaces have to lap together for a smoother fit.
 
I have only handled one SW1911 and it might well have been just that turkey that every maker puts out now and then. But-
The trigger was gritty, creepy and inconsistent.
The gun had more sharp corners and edges than a bag of broken glass.
The thumb safety did not "snap" into position. It just ground to a halt.
And worst of all, I was unable to disengage the grip safety holding it normally. I had to grip the gun in just the right way and really crush down on it.
Again, this was ONE gun and I know there are many happy SW1911 owners out there.
I am a S&W fan. But I am astonished that this gun ever left the factory.
 
Breakin is necessary before

criticizing an guns reliability. Accuracy can be evaluated at round one. some guns are instantly reliable, most require a break in. A good rule of thumb is 200 to 500 rounds.

I strongly think that it takes many more rounds for your hand to really learn the gun if it is a new design. -bevr
 
I've really got to take issue with this whole "break in" thing. A break in period is one where you take it easy, clean often, and don't assume the gun is 100% My Kahr came with a recommended break in period. I didn't have, or expect, any jams. Because I didn't, I felt the gun was ready to carry at the end of the break in.

If you are experiencing multiple failures during the break in period, when are you supposed to start trusting the gun?

A 1911 was designed as a military implement that was supposed to improve on the Luger for reliability. If the gun can't shuck Ball off the bat, how much "break in" is it going to take before you can trust it to cycle 185gr. HP when dirty?

Reliability shouldn't be a line defined by a few microns of polish or a few rounded off edges. If the gun isn't close to reliable in the beginning, it's never going to be just do to cycle wear.

The obvious exception to this is tight match guns. They do really on wear to create operating clearances. But combat guns should have adequate clearances out of the box.
 
If you are experiencing multiple failures during the break in period, when are you supposed to start trusting the gun?
Click to expand...


If after 200 rounds the falures have not diminished to zero then you may have a problem. I personally feel it is imprudent to just trust a gun just because it is brand x. I want to see proof to the puddin before I trust my life to it. 200 to 500 is what i consider fair to make sure it can stand up to some use, some dirt, some whatever.

It is also a good time to look at a gun even if you had zero failures to make sure there is no excessive wear. Something that should be done at every cleaning anyways. Of course there are those of you with uber pistols that are always perfect. Yeah nobody ever has problems with Glocks or Kahrs or 1911's or HK's or SIG's. We all know those guns are perfect out of the box. Right?

-bevr
 
I think we all know that you don't take a gun out of the box and CCW it. And any gun can be "funny". But if a Sig is jamming from the get go, something is wrong with it. Breaking it in isn't going to make whatever was wrong in the first place just disappear.
 
I bought my only 1911 in July of last year. It is Springfield Loaded M1911-A1, stainless. The gun is 100% factory, I did not even change grips on it. I am taking it to the range at least once a month. It never had malfunction on any sort. Not a single failure. I shoot reloads only and I am using the original 7-rd factory mags (Metalforms). I shot three different types of JHP ammo in it (Winchester Silvertips, Speer Gold Dot, and Federal Hydra-Shoks) and PMC factory FMJ ammo. Again, mainly I am shooting cheap reloaded ammo (no, I do not load it myself), and I never had any failures.

The one and only problem that gun has ever given me, is when I first tried to take it apart I couldn't remove barrel bushing from the slide because the fit was so tight... I still have to tap the bushing with the barrel to get it out...
 
Disclaimer

I forgot we were talking about an "accurate" 1911. I've never seen one up close with my own eyes that didn't jam, regardless of breakin. I thought it was a rule that when you bought an accurate 1911 you had to get all sorts of custom work done or risk being kicked out of the club.

Lead hose or finicky target pistol... that is the question. The choice is yours.

-bevr
 
When I first bought my Argentine Sistema (exact copy of the 1911A1 as produced in 1927) it was so tight I could barely pull the slide back.

The Tolerances were so close the pistol barely functioned.
Every last fired case would be crushed betweeen the slide and the barrel
to the point where the gun had to be disassembled to get the case out.

At other times the last fired case would eject then get slammed right back into the chamber causing another headache.

After firing 500 or so FMJ's and buying some chip McCormick Mags I no longer have any malfunctions with the gun period.

Anything I throw in it works fine.

That said, 1911 type pistols are meant to have a break in period all of them
with very very few exceptions.

Just like a new Caddilac owners manual says not to exceed 60 MPH for the first 500 miles.

The new plastic pistols with their unsupported cases and fancy doohickies
may be able to forego this 500 round maturation period but are still prone to all the ups and downs as any other gun out there.

You have to go into purchasing a pistol like you would adopting a pet or buying new stereo equipment. this is a long term investment...what are the tradeoffs, what am I expected to do to make this thing work and have it work for me.


I'm not a fan of S&W (Sellouts & Wussies) but I wopuld imagine their 1911 has the same break in period as all the others.
 
I am having repeated problems with posting, so this is a test:

- - -

SW1911 Safety Recall Information

Smith & Wesson is committed to producing firearms of the highest quality. To accomplish this goal, we are constantly evaluating and monitoring the safety, reliability and performance of our products. As part of this ongoing evaluation process, we have received reports, in an extremely small number of cases, that the firing pin safety plunger of the SW1911 pistol can become disabled, creating a situation where the slide may jam and render the firearm inoperable. This only pertains to certain Smith & Wesson Model SW1911 pistols bearing serial numbers JRD0000 to JRD4750.

To date, none of these cases have resulted in any injury, and Smith & Wesson has not received any reports of any accidental discharge associated with the functioning of the firing pin safety plunger. While the company has not received any reports of injury, a failure of the firing pin safety plunger may affect the reliability and safety of your firearm. Therefore, given our commitment to quality and safety, we are initiating this recall campaign, and we are offering to repair, free of charge, any affected SW1911 pistol.

For more information please view the "SW1911 Safety Recall Notice" PDF file below. If after viewing the document you believe your SW1911 requires service, click the "Enter SW1911 Return Information" link below and enter all the required information. A special FedEx return label and shipping instructions to facilitate the return of your Model SW1911 Pistol will be mailed to you promptly. If you have any questions you may call 1-800-331-0852 for more information.
 
Guess it's fixed now, so let's see...

First of all, thanks for your insight and tips.

Old Fuff,

I also think the problem is with the mags. Is it normal with the Wilson single stacks that the front of the follower has a lot of "play" with not much spring resistance? (I guess it's not.) Getting other mags is difficult here, because the .45ACP is not a popular choice, and especially not in a single stack pistol.

Byron Quick,

My definition of 100% out-of-box reliability: when a pistol works
flawlessly, without any kind of stoppages or failures or adjustments (after a good initial cleaning and lubing) with at least two brands of factory FMJ ammo, for *at least* 100 rounds, but preferably more.

I don't accept the break-in excuse unless we are speaking about a world class shooter's supertight racegun. Most (99%) people can't outshoot or even come close to the mechanical accuracy of a stock HK or SIG at 25-50 meters at their best day on the range. So why the tight fitting? I saw many examples when a stock, totally reliable gun produced just as good groups as a high-end, tightly fitted, but jamming 1911.

IMO break-in just an excuse for something the manufacturer left unissued, unfinished...
 
Gunhead:

Remove the magazine spring(s) and make sure they aren’t assembled backward. If not, stretch them out and then put them back. This will not fix the problem because the spring(s) will soon take a set. However the stronger tension may temporarily fix things and confirm what’s causing the trouble.

It may also be that the lips are releasing the cartridge too soon. They are intended to work with shorter overall length cartridges with 180 to 200 grain bullets.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
  • Locked
SW1911 vs DW1911
Replies
13
Views
788
Murphster
M
L
  • Locked
1911 purchase decision help
Replies
12
Views
687
Lantern
L
B
  • Locked
1911 Mag Release Problem
Replies
12
Views
2K
wally
wally
T
  • Locked
Most Accurate 9mm Out of the Box
2 3
Replies
64
Views
10K
MarshallDodge
MarshallDodge
Judah Ben-Hur
  • Locked
SW1911 back from the range
Replies
13
Views
962
FPrice
F
Back
Top