Swedish M96

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I had a Swede. Love it. Especially after carrying a 7mag for years. Accurate, light recoil and a pleasure to shoot.

Unfortunately, it is gone. My biggest regret. Replaced it a bit later with a .260 Rem. Model 700. Identical performance and easier to obtain brass. Win-win in my book.
 
Please don't tell me though, that all steel made today is better than the receivers on Swedish Mauser rifles, and supply some specific data to support that if you insist. You could literally hear 1960's vintage cars rust as they sat in your driveway.

All steel everywhere? That's a big order. But then, why would a firearms manufacturer buy steels from a foundry with no reputation? Kinda risky, don't you think? Buying steel from Tropical Jack's across the Tracks would surely lead to a recall, if the lawsuits from injuries did not put the gun manufacturer out of business. Just got my Takata air bag https://news.yahoo.com/takata-airbag-recall-everything-know-201253740.html removed from a vehicle, Takata went bust, and every automobile manufacturer who used Takata air bags, and some estimates are 100 million air bags, is having to replace those airbags at their cost. That is why prudent manufacturer's have robust subcontract management so they know what they are buying, because negligence just ain't as profitable as it used to be. Once the public wanted protection from defective products, something called "Product liability", manufacturers became liable for the garbage they shoveled out.

In the period these Swedish rifles were made, while I don't know Swedish product liability, I can say, if an American customer lost his face and hands when a defectively made American rifle blew up in his face, pretty much, no compensation or even an apology. I am sure Sweden was not particularly advanced over the US as these concepts take time so spread. Modern attitudes towards safety and product quality are hugely different from a Century ago. When those 1905 rifles were being built, only a few ships had wireless. The Titanic had wireless, and the Captain had been charging through ice fields at night through out his career, and thought nothing of it. Then he finally hit an iceberg. And, of course, the ship did not have enough life boats for everyone, but that was the way it was. And people liked it. I have found metallurgical reports of the iron and steel quality on the 1912 Titanic, and the stuff had a lot of containments, which is what steel had back then, in the pre vacuum tube technology era.

Some person whose only education on steels is based on advertising used the term “Tool Steel” because they saw it in advertising, assumed it was a quality attribute, and used that term. If that person had thought cottage cheese, or brie cheese, or platinum was a quality attribute, they might have made the claim that Swedish rifles were made of green cheese or precious metals. Sam Colt called his materials “Silver Steel”. Ain’t no silver in his steels, but it made for a catchy phrase, and even today there are those looking for that fabled Silver Steel recipe.

And this is how myths and legends become established as truth. This stuff goes around and around till everyone believes it, though they don’t know what the heck they are repeating.

Why would any firearms manufacturer make a receiver or bolt from tool steel? What attributes do you want in the materials used in a pressure holding vessel? Hardness is not high on the list, I will tell you that.

This is a 60’s ad. I remember when vehicles had 100,000 miles and were considered worn out. And they were! (anyone remember plastic toothed GM timing gears that broke before the engine had 100,000 miles?)

QZEpNR5.jpg

I remember blue printing. The mechanic took every part out of the engine and measured it. Parts tolerances were so wide that it was critical to remove the loose ones, or the engine would throw a rod through the side, or out the oil pan, if a lot of power was applied. A engine putting out 400 horsepower was a powerful engine, and they did not last long at top end.

A lot of that was just the manufacturing technology, but even 1960’s materials were not so great. And that was 60 years after a 1905 Swedish receiver was made.

(A 700 horsepower production car never was made back then. They are now. In fact, I think there are some that put out 1000 horsepower.)

This is an abstract from a 1987 SAE paper. The number of micro inclusions had dropped in the early 80’s that noticeable improvements in bearing life were being noticed, and reported. And that was 30 years ago. And that was 80 years after a 1905 Swedish receiver was made.


SAE technical paper 871983

Improvements in Bearing Steel Cleanliness and the Effect on Integral Wheel Bearing System 1987


https://www.jstor.org/stable/44472886

CONCLUSIONS

1. The SAM Rating Method for micro inclusions and the AMS-2301 rating method for macro inclusions, when used in tandem, have proven to be effective tools for the evaluation of steel internal quality and for the facilitation of steel internal quality improvement.

2. Laboratory testing under conditions relatable to field use and mathematical modeling of service bearing consumption over time both confirm significant improvements in bearing fatigue performance correlating with improvements in steel internal quality


I personally believe that craftsmen have lived in the past that could produce specialized heats of steel that rival anything used in modern firearms. Swedish Mauser receivers being such a case.


Romanticism will never replace technological improvement. Even today I constantly encounter people who believe that Sigmund the Dragon slayer had a sword which could chop granite boulders in half, and still slice a silk handkerchief in the air. Of course, that was just exactly the type a sword required to kill a dragon!. A mythical sword and a mythical monster go hand in hand. And people believe this stuff, or rather, they want to believe it.

Back in the era when workers were cutting steel under gas lights, they built remarkable equipment, considering the technology. At the end of the production line were guys with hammers, files, who beat, or removed material, to make things fit. They don’t need to do that anymore, gun manufacturer’s can hold the tolerances without having workers file parts to fit. Did you know that the reason a number of those early machine guns had oilers on them, was because of barrel interchange tolerances?. Manufacturing technology was not precise enough to maintain chamber headspace in replacement barrels. Some chambers would end up long. To keep dry cases from having case head separations, they put oilers on the guns. Oil on a cartridge allowed the case to slide to the breech face, without side wall stretch. You can look that up in Chinn’s Machine Book series.

You old enough to remember vacuum tube radios and televisions? I am, and you know, they were big, bulky, unreliable, and very limited in performance to today’s stuff. Why should anyone think that the other products of the era were technologically as advanced as today?

FNqte8r.jpg

You remember to call someone, you had to be at home, next to a phone connected to a wall outlet?

FnAVeZM.jpg

And the person you were talking to, was also at home, with their phone connected to a wall outlet? Kids can't believe that.

These were death traps, and uncomfortable. But they still look great

iFfCYH1.jpg
 
The Swedes did indeed send high nickel content iron ore to Germany to be used in the manufacture of the German made M96. Whether high nickel content steel constitutes an important complement of “tool steel”, I do not know. In the 1890s and first decade of the 20th century, the Germans and the Brits were still at the leading edge of the steel alloy industry, with the US a very close third. We can be certain that the high nickel steel made in Germany for the German made M96, was of the very best quality of its day. Heat treating for steel parts was not yet as efficient as was to become in the third decade of the 20th century. As someone noted above, the M96 was built for the pressures the cartridge was originally designed to. There is no evidence whatsoever that either German, or subsequently Swedish built M96 type rifles had any metallurgical flaws, or flaws related to metal failure. There is some evidence (Poyer et al and Ackley) that like many firearms of that era, imperfect heat treatment did exist to some extent and could lead to premature locking lug failure. Incidences of such failure in unmodified receivers seem to be of limited extent.
 
All steel everywhere?..And the person you were talking to, was also at home, with their phone connected to a wall outlet? Kids can't believe that. These were death traps, and uncomfortable. But they still look great

slamfire, for someone who is apparently fairly old, you don't seem to know much about being an old person. You are supposed to go on and on about how much better things were in your day (aka "the good old days") and how everything now is overpriced junk in comparison. Or, more simply, everything old = good, everything new = bad. The only things that are better now than back then are things that were not made back then, like computers. But those are mostly bad things the world was better off without. See how that works?

I hope I have helped.

(Do I really have to put a smiley on this?)
 
The Swedes did indeed send high nickel content iron ore to Germany to be used in the manufacture of the German made M96. Whether high nickel content steel constitutes an important complement of “tool steel”, I do not know. In the 1890s and first decade of the 20th century, the Germans and the Brits were still at the leading edge of the steel alloy industry, with the US a very close third. We can be certain that the high nickel steel made in Germany for the German made M96, was of the very best quality of its day. Heat treating for steel parts was not yet as efficient as was to become in the third decade of the 20th century. As someone noted above, the M96 was built for the pressures the cartridge was originally designed to. There is no evidence whatsoever that either German, or subsequently Swedish built M96 type rifles had any metallurgical flaws, or flaws related to metal failure. There is some evidence (Poyer et al and Ackley) that like many firearms of that era, imperfect heat treatment did exist to some extent and could lead to premature locking lug failure. Incidences of such failure in unmodified receivers seem to be of limited extent.

I did not get past the first sentence of your post, Roverguy. Before I read more, could someone tell me if there is indeed such a thing as "high nickel content iron ore"? I thought what the Swedes had was low phosphorus content iron ore, as slamfire remarked back in post #12. It had nickel in already? I thought steelmakers had to go to the store and buy nickel if they wanted their steel to have it.

I learn new things every day, but I like it better when they are true as well.

PS - I bought a Swedish M96 about 35+ years ago. I know nothing at all about the steel in it, and I never shot it - I wound up giving it to my brother. What I do know is that I bought it at a "Woolworth's" (look it up, kids) and paid $65 plus sales tax for it. Of course, I paid about $500 for a VHS VCR at roughly the same time, which just goes to show you something or other.
 
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It is gratifying to see a technical discussion which provides useful information but does not devolve into a flame fest. The Swedes thought highly of their steel which I have no doubt was of relatively high quality for that time. Their standards and production methods were primitive by today's standards, but I suspect there was less concern about the safety of wildcat cartridge designers as well. Heat treat issues regarding the 1903, overblown or not, affected service life and safety and producers learned from mistakes though later than we'd like. Remember the attempts to blow up Arisakas? Another case of not knowing what we don't know.

Steel continues to evolve. Folks back then could never have imagined powdered steel and alloys such as Magna-cut, Bohler M390 and other cutlery steels we are seeing today. And yet, many audiophiles long for the sound characteristics of the vacuum tube amps, and "damascus" steel patterns still are valued.
 
Since we are talking about Circa 1900 +/- 6 years, let us talk specifically about that time period.

In addition to massive innovation and change in industry across the board, we are talking about a radical change in the technology of firearms...the advent of high pressure smokeless powder small bore cartridges and associated firearms design changes. In terms of industrial changes, particularly in Sweden which industrialized at a later date than the US, Britain, Germany, we are switching at this time from a decentralized network of craft/artisan producers to a more scientific and larger in scale production with tight quality controls from the Crown. Swedish steel was a recognized "brand" in global trade, and fiercely protected by the Crown. Swedish steel was generally sold at a higher price for export, as it was produced to higher standards with more quality control and the most modern technology. The Bessemer process was obsolete in Sweden by 1880, favoring the Lancaster open hearth method (for reasons of fuel consumption) which produces more consistent alloys, while the US was still building 1903s with Bessemer steel. Swedish steel was simply the best available at that time, in conjunction with a dated Mauser design, and herein lies the issue. There is nothing mythical about Swedish iron/steel from 1900, but it is well known to be among the best available globally at that time.

The M96 is not an M98, nor is it a Model 70, 700 or 110. Neither is it a No1MKIII or early number M1903 or Krag. It is IMHO the best of the breed in terms of M95 actions, just as a Hults Brukk or Sandvik axe and bucksaw are the best available from that time period. Use within it's limitations, primarily of design, and you are good to go. I do believe that had the Swedes waited a couple of years and adopted an M98 pattern action, we would never be having these discussions, and they would be widely and safely rebarreled and loaded in the original cartridge to modern pressures.
 
I did not get past the first sentence of your post, Roverguy. Before I read more, could someone tell me if there is indeed such a thing as "high nickel content iron ore"? I thought what the Swedes had was low phosphorus content iron ore, as slamfire remarked back in post #12. It had nickel in already? I thought steelmakers had to go to the store and buy nickel if they wanted their steel to have it.

I learn new things every day, but I like it better when they are true as well.

PS - I bought a Swedish M96 about 35+ years ago. I know nothing at all about the steel in it, and I never shot it - I wound up giving it to my brother. What I do know is that I bought it at a "Woolworth's" (look it up, kids) and paid $65 plus sales tax for it. Of course, I paid about $500 for a VHS VCR at roughly the same time, which just goes to show you something or other.

Since you couldn’t be bothered to read more, not sure why I can be bothered to respond, but go ahead and knock yourself out:

https://epic.awi.de/id/eprint/38900/1/Landergren_FULLTEXT01.pdf

@Random 8, recall that Swedish production of their own Mausers did not begin until 1899, prior to which all were made by Mauser Obenddorf and a few by Lowe, and that, even thereafter, several thousands of rifles were still made by Obendorf because of late delivery of tooling to Carl Gustafs. So, large numbers of Swedish Mausers, including almost all the M94 carbines, were made of German steel, not Swedish, albeit supplied with Swedish iron ore. Every Swedish Mauser made, whether in Germany or Sweden, was fired with a single Proof round at 65,000 psi (piezo) or 55,000 CUP.
 
The Swedes know a bit about metals, don't forget they (SKF) invented ball bearings in a race as we know it.

As far as safety, it was the Swedes (Volvo) who introduced three point seat belts, rear facing child seats, and side impact barriers.

They are also known for their Bofors anti aircraft guns, used by all the allies in WWII, captured guns were used by the Germans.
They were used in the Gulf war, and a variant is still in use today.

Swedish "K" sub guns were also well known and respected.

Unusual for a tiny country, they also make their own fighter jets, thanks to SAAB. I was on a ferry from mainland Sweden to Gotland, an island in the Baltic, when the ferry was "attacked" by two SAAB Viggen fighters. They dove down on us and passed on either side, just above water level and below the upper ferry deck. Pretty cool. lol

For a little country, especially a neutral one, they punch way above their weight in armaments.
 
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Since you couldn’t be bothered to read more, not sure why I can be bothered to respond, but go ahead and knock yourself out:

https://epic.awi.de/id/eprint/38900/1/Landergren_FULLTEXT01.pdf

Well, that was curt and fairly unhelpful. I was not looking for a full scale technical education on Swedish iron ore, just a general confirmation from somebody OTHER than Roverguy that a) some iron ores have a useful natural nickel content and b) Swedish iron ore is one such. I have often seen reference to Swedish ore being low in phosphorus, but never before a reference to it containing unusual amounts of nickel. The only references I have seen regarding natural nickel-iron ore have to do with meteors and with the Asteroid Belt, which have little or nothing to do with Sweden.

BTW, when you read something by someone who starts off by claiming he can turn water into gasoline, or has a food supplement that can reverse aging, do you go on reading? And if the author throws a textbook on chemistry or nutrition at you, do you read that?

And now that I have read the rest of your initial post, I see that it has nothing to do with the claim that Swedish iron ore is high in nickel, so why are you cranked off that I did not read it? It was irrelvant to what I was asking about anyway.
 
Well, that was curt and fairly unhelpful. I was not looking for a full scale technical education on Swedish iron ore, just a general confirmation from somebody OTHER than Roverguy that a) some iron ores have a useful natural nickel content and b) Swedish iron ore is one such. I have often seen reference to Swedish ore being low in phosphorus, but never before a reference to it containing unusual amounts of nickel. The only references I have seen regarding natural nickel-iron ore have to do with meteors and with the Asteroid Belt, which have little or nothing to do with Sweden.

BTW, when you read something by someone who starts off by claiming he can turn water into gasoline, or has a food supplement that can reverse aging, do you go on reading? And if the author throws a textbook on chemistry or nutrition at you, do you read that?

And now that I have read the rest of your initial post, I see that it has nothing to do with the claim that Swedish iron ore is high in nickel, so why are you cranked off that I did not read it? It was irrelvant to what I was asking about anyway.

Since you have proven expertise in “curt and unhelpful”, I’ll defer to you.

For anyone with access to it, Kahaya and Poyer’s “The Swedish Mauser Rifles”, appendix E is on Swedish Mauser steel and offers good information on the anachronistically very good heat-treating used in their manufacture.
 
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Since you have proven expertise in “curt and unhelpful”, I’ll defer to you.

Well, now I have done what I really ought to have done in the first place, which is do a couple of Google searches for "does some iron ore contain nickel", to which the answer seems to be "yes, sort of", and "does Swedish iron ore contain nickel", the answer to which appears to "nobody ever heard of that", or at least not "yes", if not a positive "no".

Look, I can see I was too snarky when I asked my question about Roverguy's claim. He has a right to be irked about that. But I would suggest that he has failed to back his up remark about nickel content in Swedish iron ore in any concrete and specific way. Tossing down a PDF of a 190 page technical paper (that is unindexed and unsearchable) is not evidence; it is intended to overawe people with his erudtion. Want to tell me where to look in that thing? Fine, I will acknowledge that Roverguy is completely correct and apologize. But I am not going to act like questioning him is some kind of affront.
 
Here is an interesting piece regarding the Fe-Ni relationship: https://geologyscience.com/minerals/iron/
Five percent of Earth’s crust is made up of iron. Native iron is rare in the crust and is invariably alloyed with nickel. Low-nickel iron (up to 7.5 percent nickel) is called kamacite, and high-nickel iron (up to 50 percent nickel) is called taenite. Both crystallize in the cubic system. A third form of iron-nickel, mainly found in meteorites and crystallizing in the tetragonal system, is called tetrataenite. All three forms are generally found either as disseminated grains or as rounded masses. Kamacite is the major component of most iron meteorites. It is found in most chondritic meteorites, and occurs as microscopic grains in some lunar rocks. Taenite and tetrataenite are mainly found in meteorites, often intergrown with kamacite. It is also plentiful in the Sun and other stars.

I hope it helps.
 
So after reading some exhausting long stories of theories and other people opinions I'd just like to say that I own a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser and a .280 that's started life as a 8mm K98 Mauser. Both can shoot the hotter loads in my manuals with no pressure issue and have for years and years. I always start my load development in mid range of what is suggested in the manuals. In the 6.5x55 this load left my cases and action covered in soot. That indicates that the load is too light. I bumped it up until I was running max laods and still no pressure signs. I'm not saying everyone should do this but move up slow in your loading and check for over pressure signs.

Little side note. My 6.5x55 was made in the Gustaf factory. This factory was known for having some of the best Steele in the world at the time.
 
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