6.5x55 Swedish Mauser...need advice

[M67]

This is a bit off topic, but:
Futo Inu: Scandinavian moose are a bit smaller than North American ones, although I've never seen the latter, nor hunted the former. One second... according to a nearby encyclopedia a large bull can reach 600 kg, a very large one 800.
Mike Irwin: I think very few critters are wounded because they were shot with a 6.5, a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of caliber. Also, in Norway you are required by law to track a wounded animal (big game) and finish the job, even if it moves onto someone else's property, cross county lines or whatever. If you don't manage to do it yourself, you're required to notify relevant authorities. I'm sure "questionable circumstances" occur, but it's not something you want to brag about to fellow hunters.
To hunt big game in Norway you need a rifle cartridge whith a minimum bullet weight of 9 grams (139 grains). If the bullet is between 9 and 10 grams (154 grains), the energy required is 2700 joule at 100 meters, if the bullet is heavier than 10 g the energy required is 2200 joule at 100 meters. I know, give a bureaucrat your little finger...

Baba Louie, I think "Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori" or variation thereof is closer, "Waffenfabrik" is German, the Swedish word would be "vapenfabrik" or in this case a more old fashioned "gevärsfaktori".

Stinkyshoe, sorry about the digression. The 6.5 is a great caliber. It's not difficult to reload, which reminds me that I have several hundred cases awaiting my attention.

 

[Stinkyshoe]

"Baba Louie, I think "Carl Gustafs Stads Gevärsfaktori" or variation thereof is closer, "Waffenfabrik" is German, the Swedish word would be "vapenfabrik" or in this case a more old fashioned "gevärsfaktori"

The rifle I looked at said Carl Gustafs Stads and then said Gevarsfactori on it. Does this mean that it was made in Sweden? Is there a German made model? Is there a sight worth putting on it that would make for more precise target aquisition?

Thank you again for all the replies
Ss

P.s. Ballistically, what common cartridge would this be similar to. A .270 Winchester perhaps?

 

[JohnKSa]

The 6.5x55 is one of those rounds that performs much better than its paper ballistics say it should.

The 260 Remington, which is a clone of the 6.5x55 ballistically, is the same way.

On the hog hunting forums, the guys will tell you that you need a cannon to reliably stop a hog--or a something with a 6.5mm bullet. You see guys talking about their 300Win Mags, their .338s, their 45-70s, and then there's the guys talking about their .260s and 6.5x55s.

A friend of mine owns a gun shop, does a lot of hunting and shooting. He bought his youngest a 260 because of the light recoil. He's a bigger is better guy, but after watching the kid take a few deer, he just doesn't know how to explain it. He says: "I've never seen a deer take a single step after being hit with that 260." And although his kid isn't a bad shot, he's nothing like a hunting expert--you can't give him all the credit.

I finally talked another friend of mine into a .260 This guy buys a gun a month--literally. He buys, trades and sells guns faster than anyone I know. He hardly ever has more than 3-4 guns on hand, but he's always ready to buy or sell at a moment's notice. He hunts when he gets the chance. He was impressed at the accuracy of the .260, but didn't think it would work well on deer. After taking a couple deer with it, he changed his tune. Same song as the other guy--it kills them dead in their tracks.

 

[M67]

I don't know much about Swedish Mausers, but I have a head start on you guys - I read Swedish, so here's the result of a quick search.

Carl Gustafs stad, "Carl Gustaf's city/town", was a freetown for blacksmiths (tax free area) outside Eskilstuna, Sweden in the 18th century. Carl and Gustaf/Gustav have been very pupular names in the Swedish royal family, with a number of Carl Gustafs thrown in for variation... Anyway, the rifle factory was set up in 1812 or 1813, it's still in business, I think it's owned by Bofors now.

Swedish Mausers were produced mainly at Carl Gustaf but a number were also produced by Mauser in Oberndorf, Germany to supplement Swedish production, both M94 carbines and M96 rifles. There is no "German model", they are all the same model(s), just that the Swedish gov't had some of them made in Germany because of production capacity. The rifles were designed by Mauser, the Swedes paid a royalty for the ones they produced in Sweden. M38 rifles were made by the Swedish company Husqvarna from 1941 to 45. I think Husqvarna was later bought by the same division of Bofors that owns Carl Gustaf. I think the standard marking on weapons made by Carl Gustaf is a C with a crown, those made by Husqvarna should have a crowned H. I don't know if civilian rifles made by the same factories are marked in this way. I have seen and fired a number of rifles made by both, I just can't remember looking very closely at the markings (he says and hangs his head in shame... )

The 6.5x55 cartridge was designed by a Norwegian-Swedish committee. The two countries were in a union at the time. The military forces were separate but were supposed to have a common strategy for defending the two countries, hence a certain degree of logistical cooperation. The Norwegian parliament fired the union king in 1905 and dissolved the union, but no shots were fired.

The 6.5x55 was chambered in the Swedish Mauser models mentioned above, and in the Norwegian Krag Jørgensen model of 1894. That rifle, for those who are interested, was designed by two Norwegians (army officer Ole Krag and gunsmith Erik Jørgensen). The Krag was adopted by Denmark (8x58R) in 1889, by the US (30-40) in 1892 and in Norway (6.5x55) in 1894. (In Norway the Krag replaced a bolt action magazine-fed rifle, the Jarmann rifle was adopted by the army in 1884.) The 6.5 has later been loaded quite a bit hotter for Mausers and modern rifles than the original loading. The Krag is not strong enough to handle the higher pressures, so in Norway we have "Mauser-loads" and "Krag-loads" in 6.5x55. The dimensions are identical, the only difference is chamber pressure.

 

[Stinkyshoe]

JohnK
Thank you for the comparison. That really helps a lot. It is good to know it will take deer sized game with good shot placement. That is really what I want it for. I would like to try the Military rifle competition in the state games next year. We'll see...


M67
Thanks for the historical background on the gun manufacturers during that time. Would all three Krags(Denmark, US, Norway) all having the same side loading box magazine? Because the M96 is a Mauser, does that mean it can handle higher pressure "mauser" loads?


Thanks again

 

[M67]

Stinkyshoe, thank my employer, they're the ones paying me 35 bucks an hour to sit here and talk guns on line.

The low pressure Krag loads I mentioned is a Norwegian thing, the M96 should handle "regular" factory loads or equivalent handloads. Disclaimer: Any 100 year old rifle is ... well, a 100 years old. No point pushing one's luck by loading hot. 6.5x55 ammo fired in Mausers in Norway is generally fired in 98 Mausers, which I believe is a bit stronger than the 96. Or is it? Someone here probably knows.

All the Krags had basically the same magazine, but on the Danish rifles the magazine was hinged in front instead of at the bottom. I have never tried to shoot a Danish Krag, but it looks just plain wrong to me. This is one of the changes that were made as a result of the US rifle trials, the Norwegian model is more or less identical to the one adopted by the US, although we used it longer, so there were a number of minor changes through the years, including a "Boy's Carbine" for use in teaching school children to shoot. That one came along in 1912, I think. I believe close to 200,000 Krags were made for the Norwegian army, a few thousand for the navy and tens of thousands for the civilian market, in a population of less than 2.5 million at the time. A couple of hundred rifles supposedly ended up in Boer hands during the second Boer war, through a private purchase, but the facts about this are somewhat hazy.

 

[scotjute]

The '98 Mauser is a stronger action than the '96 Mauser and can handle a wider variety of cartridges.

 

[JohnKSa]

Must read for someone interested in Swedish Mausers.

Neutrality Though Marksmanship
"A Collector's and Shooter's Guide to Swedish Military Rifles 1867-1942"
Doug Bowser
Published by Camellia City Military Publications in1996

I found my copy from a bookseller in the Shotgun News. Can't remember the name. If you can't find it, PM me and I'll give you his email. Nice guy. He autographed the M1 book I bought from him.

Anyway, the Swede book is a good read, and a good reference too.

Any U.S. Commercial ammo should be good for the old Swedes, with the possible exception of the Hornady Light Magnum stuff.

If you handload, they tend to work best with the 140 grain bullets. Don't hotrod them. It's not necessary to get good performance or accuracy, and they ARE, after all 100 years old...

 

[coyote shooter]

m 38 6.5x55

i got this rifle from an good friend and been trying to find some information on it .i have gotten evrything on it and i am still trying to find out why it has a threaded barrel and how ot interpit the shooting ranges that is stamped on a metal tag on the stock next to the circular disk. its in exellant condition and a cpl of guys has offered me $800 for it. is it really worth that much???

 

[Vic303]

Coyote, the threads are so you can place a flash hider on the barrel. You can buy one for about $27 from Samco Global.

I'm not willing to pay $800 for a Swede, but I'd need to know more about your particular rifle to get a sense of its value.

 

[rust collector]

I understood that the threaded muzzles were for mounting a device which shredded the wooden bullet used in blank cartridges used for training.

The metal rectangular tag is probably a bullet drop chart.

A rifle is worth what someone is willing to pay. Sometimes rarity makes them more valuable. Make sure you know what you have, and sell if the rifle is worth less than 800 to you.

They are great fun to shoot.

 

[Tamlin]

I found a sporterized M94 Carbine recently for $229. All the numbers match - just has a modern stock on it (and a Williams peep sight). Love it. The one you are looking at sounds like a great deal. Do you think the price is going to go DOWN???

 

[Plank Road Farm]

1903 Swede markings

Glad you guys resurrected this thread after nearly "six" years.

I have a Swede with the markings:

Crown stamp
Captial C
Carl Gustafs stad
Gevarsfaktori.
1903

If "M67" is still around six years later, can you share a little about my rifle?

 

[Float Pilot]

Coyote, the threads are so you can place a flash hider on the barrel. You can buy one for about $27 from Samco Global.

No they were not.

Some of the Model 96 and Model 38 rifles were later rebarreled with a threaded barrel for the use of a blank firing adapter. Making them M/96B and M/38B

The Swedes used wooden bullets in their blanks which were rather dangerous up close. For many years they used the blanks without any sort of adapter and simply told the troops to aim off to one side when the target was close enough to hurt.

Since any GI can screw up just about anything, they decided to make a wooden bullet shreader for the end of the muzzle. I own a couple.

The Swedes then used a semi clear plastic thread protector to keep the threads from getting all messed up in the field.

The Swedes NEVER issued a flash hider for their M96(b) and M/38(B) rifles. They also did not issue the blued steel thread protectors. Both are the invention of US importers and after market dealers.
Many rifles that were arsenal rebuilt in the 60s and 70s have the threaded barrels since they appear to have had lots of those on hand.

Sniper rifles never had the threaded barrels.

The best book on Swedish Mausers is (Crown Jewels - The Mauser in Sweden: A Century of Accuracy & Precision) by Dana Jones.

The other books are full of errors.

This is a good web site.

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/

Here is a page showing the blank adapter. The pics of mine are on another old thread here and I can't reload them.

how ot interpit the shooting ranges that is stamped on a metal tag on the stock next to the circular disk.

The round brass disc is an inspection notation disc. It gives the bore condition at the last inspection (the section with 1,2 and 3) No mark meaning new or like new. A mark opver the 1 means slight wear, 2 is still ok and 3 means it is about ready to be replaced. Another section has the bore diameter and so on.

The rectangular plate is the range conversion chart for one of two types of commonly issued ammunition. The old 156 grain m/94 round nose bullet and the later m/41 spitzer bullet of 139 grains.

If your plate says:

G m/38 .............................on top it means Rifle m-38
Sitke for trubbkula...........if the rifle has the old sights for the round nose.
Skjutning med spetskula......shooting with the newer Spitzer bullet.

If the m/38 rifle has sights for the Spitzer ammo there should be a big T on the back sight. Then the plate will say Sitke for Spetskula (sights for spitzer) and the next line will say Skjutning med Trubbkula...shooting round nose.

Then it has two rows of numbers. The left row is the actual target range and the right row is the sight setting.

For instance with a m/38 rifle sighted for the spitzer m/41 cartrdige, if you were issued old round nose ammo, and the target is at 250 meters, you need to use the 300 meter sight setting.

The Swedish volunteer battalions who walked across the border into Finland to fight the soviets seem to have used older round nose ammo throughout the Winter War and the later continuation war.

 

[Float Pilot]

Glad you guys resurrected this thread after nearly "six" years.

I have a Swede with the markings:

Crown stamp
Captial C
Carl Gustafs stad
Gevarsfaktori.
1903

Is yours a m/96 rifle 29 inch barrel, an m/38 made from a m/96 rilfe (24 inch barrel) or a 16 inch M/94 carbine ?

 

[Plank Road Farm]

Is yours a m/96 rifle 29 inch barrel, an m/38 made from a m/96 rilfe (24 inch barrel) or a 16 inch M/94 carbine ?

Mine is a M/96 rifle with a 29 inch barrel.

 

[Float Pilot]

We are having more volcanic ash fall here, so I will see how long my computer connection holds up.

Your 1903 Carl Gustafs manufactured rifle (CG the Crown (royal) rifle factory) was one of about 14,700 made during 1903 at the Government Rilfe factory. The Crown over the CG was the factory crest.

You should have either a K.B. or maybe a H.R. in front of the serial number on the receiver. That is the Inspectors initials.
K.B. is Capt Konrad August Berglund of the 5th Artillery and H.R. is Lt. Erik Herman Ribbing of the 3rd Art.

Also look to see if there is a mark that looks like [SA] anywhere. If so, that means the rifle was lent to the Finns during the WWII period.


Your bolt was originally a straight bolt back in 1903. Sometime during the rifles life the bolt sleeve (body) has been replaced with a Husqvarna made turn-down bolt sleeve.
Many base rifle clubs, shooting teams and the Civilian Shooting program rifles had repacement Husqvarna turned down bolts.

If you look on the bottom side of your bolt knob, you will notice that the crown acceptence mark is tilted. The Tilted Crown was the mark of Husqvarna made parts. The CG crown is just like you see on your other bolt parts.
Your bolt serial number should be upside down if you are looking at it with the bolt closed from the right side of the rifle. It was made to be looked at from the other side by opening the bolt. Some replacement Swede rifle bolts in the US have the numbers upright since they were done by bubbas who did not know how they are supposed to be stamped.

During 1899 and 1900 some m/96 Rilfes were made at the Mauser factory in Germany (on the Necker River) using Swedish steel. The crown on those rifles looks a little different from the CG crown. The bottom looks baggy. Sometimes you will see German Mauser partys on rifles that have been rebuilt.

Your rear sight has a METALLVERKEN REFINED SIGHT ADAPTER type 3.
There were 3 different versions of this sight adapter. These were designed by P.O. Faldt,and were manufactured by Metallverken, in Vasteras, Sweden. Many sellers mistakenly refer to these as "naval" sights, because the Metallverken logo is a Viking ship, they assume they have something to do with the Navy.
The earliest was designed for M94 ammo in a M38 barrel length, it is calibrated from 300-600 meters.
The Type 2 was designed for the M41 ammo in an M38 barrel, it is graduated from 250-600 meters. These are in 25 meter increments, with a dot signifying 25 meters, and a line signifying 50 meters. On the Type II, 3 is the lowest number,
The Type 3 Metallverken adapter was strictly civilian. It is graduated from 100-600 meters, and was regulated for Metallverken target ammo (very similar to military M41 ammo) in an M96 length barrel. These were used extensively on civilian M96's.
I think yours is the type 3. That would also go along with the turned down bolt.

You probably have some cartouche marks on the underside of your stock between the trigger guard area and the rear sling swivel mount.
Those could tell us how many times the rifle was rebuilt and by whom.
A crown over a C means Carl Gustafs Inspection, a Crown CH means the rifle was reworked at the Kristianstad armory.
A Crowned S means a rework at the Stockholm Armory.
A couple of mine are stamped Crown over CB. This means they were rewokred at the Karlsborg Armory. Since it used to be spelled CARLSBORG.
There are also a few other stamps.

There will also be some stamps on the barrel chamber area. this is inside the stock and requires the barrel action to be removed to view.

You bore condition disc shows a new barrel, with a 6.51 mm bore. It also shows no hold over or hold under for the change to the newer ammo.

The new barrel, the target sight insert and the good condition make me think it was a shooting club or rifle team weapon. It probably shoots like a house-a-fire....

Your rifle has a 1 in 200mm twist. About 1 in 8 inch. Since it was originally made to shoot the 156 gr round nose bullets. Of course the 139 to 140 grain bullets work just fine as well.

My m/96s seem to like handloads using the 160 grain Hornady round nose bullet and RL-22 powder.

My wife is wigging out and trying to clean the house during a volcanic ash storm...., so I gotta go...

xx

 

[doubs43]

At the beginning of this thread the comment is made that Swedish Mausers were not issued to the Finns. As a standard issue weapon that would be true but Sweden apparently did send some M96 rifles to the Finns, possibly during the Winter War or the WW2 years. I can't vouch for them having been issued to Finn troops but the Finns did have some.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The swede is easy to reload for--just watch your max loads for pressure as you're loading for an OLD action...

One thing more -- the 6.5 was designed to shoot a long, heavy (160 grain) bullet, so Swedes have loooong throats. Accuracy will be much improved if handloaders understand that and load the bullets way out.

By the way, many 140-grain 6.5 bullets have two crimping cannelures. If you're shooting a Swede, start by loading with the back cannelure at the case mouth -- that puts the bullet about where it belongs for best accuracy.

 

[jkingrph]

One of my favorite rifles, Guess that's why I have so many. My best find is a 1900 Obendorf with a two digit serial number, all matching, converted to M 38 short rifle form. I also have a Husqvarna sporter, built on the 96 action, identical to the military action in 9.3x57 Mauser. This one dates to about 1934 and has a really attractive stock.

 

[Float Pilot]

At the beginning of this thread the comment is made that Swedish Mausers were not issued to the Finns.

During the Finnish Civil War 1917 to 1918, the Swedes managed to somehow inmport about 1,300 rifles into Finland from Sweden. They also provided (volunteer Troops). How those rifles were used is not well documented.

In 1919, the Finnish Civil Guard was issued Swedish Mausers in the mostly Swedish Speaking areas of Southern and Western Finland. Some were privately purchased by Civil Guard members since they were well liked for their superior accuracy. By 1924 the Finnish Civil Guard showed 1,913 Swede rifles in use.

The Finnish Winter war of 1939-1940 resulted in the purchase of 77,000 Swedish rifles by the government of Finland. These were sold with bayonets, ammo, slings and all sorts of other goodies. The first lot of rifles and ammo was shipped across the boarder in January 1940.
Rifles from the first delivery were issued to Troops in the Northern front, units of the coastal artillery and home guard units. Once again most were in the Swedish speaking areas. They were not considered as first line issue.

As a side note: 80,000 Finnish children were taken into Swedish homes to protect them from the invading Soviets....

During the winter war more than 8,000 Swedish troops were allowed to take leave from the Swedish Army and join the Svenska Frivillig Karen The SWEDISH VOLUTEER CORPS.
They were armed with standard Swedish Rifles and Carbines which were supposedly all paid for via donations... Wink-Wink...

In late 1940 the volunteer Corps gave some 7,897 of the rifles and carbines to the Finns. So the Finns now had around 1,000 M/94 and m/94-14 carbines..

In 1941 the Soviets and Finns were back it fighting again. This is referred to as the Continuation War During this period most of the Swedish made rifles and carbines were isued to the Finnish Navy, Anti-Aircraft units and supply depot guard units. Swedish made rifles accounted for just over 8% of the entire Finnish military inventory.

Around 52,063 Swedish rifles were still on the the Finnish Army's inventory list at the end of the Continuation War in late 1944.

There were also Swedish volunteer battalions fighting the Soviets inside Finnland during the Continuation War. Just as there were German Troops in Finland as well. In fact there was the LAPLAND WAR of late 1944 early 1945 in which the Finns turned on the German troops.

 

[Plank Road Farm]

More M96 Questions

Float Pilot.....you are the man for Swede information!
Thanks for shedding some light on my rifle.
Hope you have the ash under control by now.

Also look to see if there is a mark that looks like [SA] anywhere. If so, that means the rifle was lent to the Finns during the WWII period.

I cannot find a mark that looks like [SA] anywhere. But I haven't taken the barrel out of the stock to look at the under side.

You should have either a K.B. or maybe a H.R. in front of the serial number on the receiver. That is the Inspectors initials.
K.B. is Capt Konrad August Berglund of the 5th Artillery and H.R. is Lt. Erik Herman Ribbing of the 3rd Art.

There is a "K.B." initial in front of the serial number which ends with "xxx606".

If you look on the bottom side of your bolt knob, you will notice that the crown acceptence mark is tilted. The Tilted Crown was the mark of Husqvarna made parts. The CG crown is just like you see on your other bolt parts.
Your bolt serial number should be upside down if you are looking at it with the bolt closed from the right side of the rifle. It was made to be looked at from the other side by opening the bolt. Some replacement Swede rifle bolts in the US have the numbers upright since they were done by bubbas who did not know how they are supposed to be stamped.

Here's two views of my bolt. The bolt "606" looks upside down. Not sure if the bottom side has a tiltled crown or not.

You probably have some cartouche marks on the underside of your stock between the trigger guard area and the rear sling swivel mount.
Those could tell us how many times the rifle was rebuilt and by whom.
A crown over a C means Carl Gustafs Inspection, a Crown CH means the rifle was reworked at the Kristianstad armory.
A Crowned S means a rework at the Stockholm Armory.
A couple of mine are stamped Crown over CB. This means they were rewokred at the Karlsborg Armory. Since it used to be spelled CARLSBORG.
There are also a few other stamps.

Here's two views of the cartouche marks. It is not stamped very well, can you tell what it is? It looks like a small letter "g", not sure.

The new barrel, the target sight insert and the good condition make me think it was a shooting club or rifle team weapon. It probably shoots like a house-a-fire....

I haven't shot it yet.
TIA

 

[Float Pilot]

The [SA] would be where you could see it. So it was not sent to the Finns.

The Cg under a Crown means it was rebuilt or upgraded by the Swedish Army Arms Depot at Goteborg. You do not see many of those.

Your bolt is a Husqvarna arsenal replacement. The stock seems to be in great shape as well from the few photos I have seen. I have one almost like it that was probably used as a Shooting team rifle at a military base.

Even the rifles issued to the civilain shooters groups, were still military and had to eventually be returned. It was a sort of super CMP program.

Mine likes 45-46 grains of RL-22 powder, a CCI-200 primers, Winchester brass, and a 160 grain Hornady round nose loaded to the cannelure. (around 3,00 inch col)

Here are groups from three different types of Swede Rifles:

 

[Plank Road Farm]

Thanks....

Float Pilot:
Sorry that I mistyped your name in my last post.
I went back and corrected my mistake.
Just wanted to thank you for filling in the blanks about my M96 Swede.

Mine did not have a cleaning rod when I bought it.
I guess I would need one to clean it once I shoot it.
Are the hard to find?
TIA

 

[Float Pilot]

Rifle Rods are not hard to find, but they are actually too short to use for cleaning.


http://cgi.ebay.com/SWEDISH-MAUSER-...temQQimsxZ20090405?IMSfp=TL090405153001r13869


The Swedes had an adapter that made them long enough. Their cleaning gear was overly complicated.

This photo will help you remember the pen name...

Float Pilot